25,000 is not that high. This has nothing to do with mp but over at CFC people pull off scores as high 300,000 in the GOTM and HOF. It's actually pretty ridiculous.
The funny thing is, those players know all the tricks to inflate their scores and exploit the AI to the nth degree. I'd like to see how they handle playing MP with players who actually know how to attack and defend.
Catapults as they currently function are awful. They changed Catapults to be immune to collateral damage to benefit attackers. Previously, the defender always had the advantage because he could always use his Catapults to collateral the attacker's units. Now that people are exploiting the system and making 75% or more of their stacks consisting solely of Catapults, the balance of power has completely swung in favor of the attacker. This really needs a fix, and fast.
In a Ren Teamer I usually like to use my first General to make a super unit so that everyone can build Heroic Epic. That is a huge bonus in unit production that shouldn't be ignored. After that it all depends on how the game is going and what strategy will help you best to win.
As for Ren Teamer civ choices in Warlords, here are a few thoughts --
I think Imperialistic is by far the best new trait, not Charasmatic. Faster Settlers and Generals are great. Now if only more than a handful of players understood how to properly play Imperialistic in a teamer ... the triple promoted mounted units from Charasmatic are nice, but unless you have about 6 really awesome fully grown cities, leaving Bureaucracy is going to kill your GNP and MFG.
I think Louis is definitely better than Napoleon. If you want to take advantage of the Musketeers during their window of usefulness, you're better off with quick forges. If you want to pick a Charasmatic civ, there are better choices than CHR/ORG. I miss the old Napoleon .
I don't really like the Ottomans. The Jannissary is certainly an interesting unit to play with, but unless they are on the front with hills or forests to use to harass and choke, I think they aren't so great.
There are a few civs that could be interesting based on having decent traits and unique buildings -- Mali, Rome, and Korea come to mind.
In the end, I think the only "must haves" are Ghandi and Louis. After that, Isabella, Victoria, Cyrus, Brennus, Ragnar, and Ramsses are all really nice.
Have you or anyone else tested Rameses in a ren game? If you're in the front, would you just chop war chariots as soon as you hook up a horse? The window for them is extremely small... Saladin often didn't get camels out fast enough for the super quick rush. Granted chariots are cheaper, but I dunno how viable they are.
I have seen this more than once recently from a couple of different players!
Since the 1.61 patch, at first I will usually only chop the forests directly adjacent to my capital, and any forest hills in my fat cross. Generally, I try to wait for Mathematics to get the increased chop yield before I clear cut everything ... but of course game circumstances can change that .
You're talking about Infantry being built of one city with West Point vs. Cavalry that can be built in every city of an entire empire. Outside of that, an Aggressive civ can get triple promoted Infantry that will handle Cavs with no problems.
I know from experience, in a Ren cton I lost 5 Infantry in a row to Cavs, even after I catapulted them!
But you should be careful with such explorers. You can't just Alt-click to select all stack and attack in case of emergency. Explorer cant' attack and so it will not let an entire stack to attack if it's selected.
Just learned this lesson the hard way a couple of days ago ... lost most of a huge stack because i couldn't move to a defensible tile because a worker was blocking it .
I would say that spain is probably the best overall nation for ren era, barring russia. Saladin comes in a close second. India is fine, too, but overrated now that chopping is nerfed.
I'll take Ghandi first just about everytime. Who cares if chopping is nerfed? It's nerfed for everyone, so Ghandi still has the same advantages he had before. Faster chops, faster mines, faster roads ... I don't care if it takes 2 turns instead of 1 to chop a forest, I don't want to play against Ghandi on the front when he's got a lot of forests at his disposal.
how do samrai do vs maceman - both with same upgardes?
Samurai should have a nice advantage vs. a maceman with the same upgrades because the samurai has 2 first strikes and the maceman has none.
dont underesteimate spi trait - i kinda love it
u dont waste 1 t to wsitch religion u got head start in beginning and u can go org 1. to spread religion afst and then switch to theo or paz - also later on u might switch to nation to draft muaskets or slaving to poprush cavs - with a spi civ i usually switch gov every 6 t to make best use out of the civics paz whikle buildup - theo wehn spaming units and so on and so on
even when sticking with 1 government form for most of game u save about 3 turns what can be pretty muchin a game which is usually deceded in 30-40 turns and it s a livesaver often enough - fast switch to nation and slaves = 2 units in city where was non before
I mihgt rate spi as strongest trait of all - espacially as i m more a fan of knights/cavs then of muskets - trais like agri and phi ju8st gotta be used clever and i hate people rushing workers with gandhi instead forges
Spiritual is definitely under rated, but I think you need to know how to use it properly to maximize it's effectiveness, I think it takes a lot more skill to do properly than a lot of the other more popular traits.
You're definitely correct though, if you use it to your advantage to spread your religion and build your buildings faster, jump into theocracy to get that extra upgrade, maybe even spend 5 turns in slavery to get those last few units for an attack stack you need a bit faster. Plus the life saving aspect of switching to slavery and nationalism and pumping out units quick is a great bonus.
Continuing the series of Renaissance Teamer FAQ style posts, I figured I'd post a quick crash course (co authored by DeyReepher, who reminds you not to knock Japan) on the pros and cons of each civ in the Ren Era.
America -- Roosevelt -- Don't pick this one.
America -- Washington -- Financial and Organized are a nice combo for a solid economy, but in a 120 turn game with a lot of combat there are far better choices. Unique unit does not come into play.
Arabia -- Saladin -- Great choice, should be in every game. Spiritual and Philosophical make Saladin the leader of choice for producing great people. The Camel Archer is a great unique unit in this particular game as it requires no resources to build. You can rush with it early and if you have horses you can trade them to a teammate in need. One of your better players should play Arabia as it takes a bit of skill to produce the correct great people while being able to properly expand your civilization.
Aztecs -- Montezuma -- Aggressive and Spiritual are nice, but you can do better.
China -- Mao Zedong -- No.
China -- Qin Shi Huang -- Not a horrible choice, as Industrious and Financial are strong traits, but there are still better choices.
Egypt -- Hatshepsut -- No War Chariot rushes available in Ren.
England -- Elizabeth -- Now, you may disagree with me here, as a month or two ago Elizabeth was an automatic choice in every game. But you can still get a Financial with Inca and a Philosophical with Saladin, and these days most games aren't lasting long enough to get to rifles and redcoats. Still a very good choice, though, but not a must have anymore.
England -- Victoria -- You're better off with Elizabeth if you're going to play England. If it's 1 leader per team instead of 1 civ per team, you're better off duping India than England.
France -- Louis XIV -- Completely useless, this guy sucks, I hate him.
France -- Napoleon -- On the other hand, Napoleon should be in every Ren teamer in the hands of one of the more skilled players. Musketeers are cheaper than knights, and properly triple upgraded with a barracks and Theocracy, they are nearly as deadly. They become outdated as attackers once Military Tradition is discovered, but are still a solid quick moving defensive unit.
Germany -- Bismarck -- Useless.
Germany -- Frederick -- Even more useless. We love our German ladder players, but these German leaders are just as bad as the American leaders in Ren.
Greece -- Alexander -- A solid choice. The Philosophical trait plays well in the Ren era, and when lacking iron but having copper, the Phalanx can hold up against a knight. Once you have a barracks and theocracy, in my opinion, triple upgraded phalanxes are better than pikes, as they are almost half as cheap as pikes and nearly as effective. Although, Dey says if you don't need the extra Phi leader, go with Japan!
Inca -- Huayna Capac -- Capac should be in just about every ren game because of his solid traits. Financial plays well in the back, Aggressive plays well on the front, and two quechas should be able to fight off those pesky early longbows.
India -- Asoka -- Play Ghandi instead, he is better, unless you are allowed 1 leader per team.
India -- Ghandi -- Should be in every Ren teamer, pretty much a no brainer. Fast Workers are probably the most overpowered unique unit in the game. One of the best players on the team should handle Ghandi for maximum effectiveness.
Japan -- Tokugawa -- Dey's favorite frontline civ. The Aggressive triple upgraded samurai can be used for some nice choking, and while their 2 first strikes are ineffective against knights, they do come into play against cavalry.
Mali -- Mansa Musa -- Not the worst choice, but you can find a better Financial civ elsewhere.
Mongolia -- Genghis Khan -- Nope.
Mongolia -- Kublai Khan -- Pass.
Persia -- Cyrus -- The butt of many Ren era jokes.
Rome -- Julius Caesar -- Not this one either.
Russia -- Catherine -- Russia is usually banned in Ren games, but if they're not, Catherine is a powerful choice. The cossack is ungodly, thus leading to the usual ban. Financial helps you get to those cossacks quicker. Creative helps you expand your borders a little quicker, but isn't really necessary if you properly spread your religion.
Russia -- Peter -- I prefer Catherine's Financial trait, but for those who like Philosophical better, Peter is nice.
Spain -- Isabella -- Spain has a great unique unit, the Conquistador, as it receives defensive bonuses and has a bonus against melee units, the usual defender against mounted units. However, Spiritual and Expansive are not the best traits for Ren games, and you are banking on getting iron and horses up early, as the Conquistador cannot be built after the discovery of Military Tradition.
That wraps up all of the available leaders, here's a quick rundown of the usefulness of their traits --
Aggressive -- Pretty powerful, as you get a quicker barracks and a free Combat I for your pikes, maces, muskets, and rifles. You also get a quicker drydocks if the game gets that far.
Creative -- Spreading your religion expands your borders, not really useful.
Expansive -- +3 health per city is nice, but then you have to deal with unhappiness ... there are better traits to choose.
Financial -- That extra commerce really helps getting your tech moving early on. Solid choice. Should have at least 1 or 2 FIN civs on your team.
Industrious -- Not too many wonders to build here, and the few that are available are usually built by Great Engineers. The quick forges are really nice though, making this a solid choice.
Organized -- The poor man's financial ... so go financial instead.
Philosophical -- Need to have at least one PHI civ on your team. Great Artists to protect your fronts are nice, a Great Engineer for Taj Mahal is really important, and extra great people can be used for golden ages.
Spiritual -- Avoiding the anarchy when changing civics is nice, but with the exception of Saladin's PHI/SPI combo, you generally don't need to swap civics all too often in a ren team game.
Just remember that even seemingly outdated units can be useful, as Dey recently got a heroic epic unit Quecha in a Ren team game:
That about does it, comment away.
Last Edit: May 17, 2006 4:56:36 GMT -5 by MookieNJ
(1) Front line players do not have time to make settlers, and quite often, not even for workers. That responsibility should fall into the second line players. Unfortunately, most of the second line players do not understand this, even when I beg them for settlers and workers, I still do not get them.
You're correct in that 90% of players in teamers have no clue what it means to actually work together as a team. They just sit back and play ctons against each other. Sending the front-line players Workers and Settlers will only hurt their scores.
However, you're incorrect in that being placed on the front-line is not an excuse to beg for Workers and Settlers and build none for yourself. It's not like you're going to be under immediate attack ... unless you're up against Arabia the only units you need to worry about early are Longbows. No big deal, they are slow moving and not too strong. Build a Catapult and/or a Mace and build your own Workers.
If you don't feel comfortable on the Front, only build one extra Settler. Plant him behind your capital. Now you've got 3 cities in a row -- your front city (don't plant a 2 city front with your first 2 Settlers or you're just begging to die very quickly), then your capital, then your third city. Only your front city will be easily threatened, and now you'll have 2 cities behind it to help build units to defend it.
Eventually if your teammates stop playing ctons and actually decide to build some units to help you out, it will be safe to expand further ... just keep everything nicely planted behind the front city and things shouldn't get out of hand. At this point, whether you build the Settlers yourself or they are gifted to you isn't a huge deal.
(2) When facing a good opponent, the front line cities are attack by two players with two stacks. The two stacks, controlled by two well-coordinated players, can go for one city or two cities. Under this circumstance, the front line player’s role is to defend the first city and it is the second line player’s duties, with his units, to defend the second city, which is usually the capital. Otherwise the frontline players will be overwhelmed. (The attack comes in the last 5 seconds of a turn and fast reaction is a matter of live or die). Most of the time, the second line player simply drop units to the front line player and pay no attention.
For the most part, I have no idea what you're talking about here. All units should generally be rallied to the front city. The front player's capital should never really be at issue unless the front player has a learning disability and planted a 2 city front. Don't plant a 2 city front.
Although, it is quite annoying when a player from the back sends his or her units up to the front, refuses to gift them and refuses to pay attention to what is going on at the end of every turn. If you're not going to gift away your units, you'd better be watching for double moves and attacks at the end of every turn. If you can't be bothered to do this, just gift the units to the front-line player -- I'd hope that he or she would be watching for an attack at the end of every turn!
(3) As opposite of (2), the offense must be done by both front line player and second line player. Two well coordinated players can do far more than a single attacker.
I wouldn't agree with this, it's a pretty bland generalization. Often it's easier for one good player to control all the units than to try to coordinate with another player. With two people trying to accomplish teamwork, a lot can go wrong ... with one person ready to catapult and then attack immediately, or whatever the case may be, it's usually a lot easier. Many times I've sat there watching someone do nothing after explaining to them what to do and when to do it ... if they'd just gifted the units to me it would have been over and done with.
Now if you've got two really good players actually working well together ... that's a different story.
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Mar 18, 2015 20:35:05 GMT -5
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Dec 28, 2015 11:16:47 GMT -5