|
Post by MookieNJ on May 10, 2006 17:12:42 GMT -5
As one of the most popular ladder games at the moment is the 5v5 Renaissance Teamer, and seeing that I play in these games quite a lot, I figured I'd share some of the more general tips and tricks I have picked up over the last few months. Rather than a step by step tutorial of exactly what to do, a more general outline of the most important stuff to know is more appropriate, thus allowing a new player to apply his or own unique style to the game and leaving plenty of room to learn and grow along the way.
* If you've played a decent number of ctons, you know that the MP game is much more aggressive than SP. This holds true in team games as well.
* Once you are in the game, the first thing to do is switch your civics. Until you feel comfortable with more advanced strategy, your best bet is to start in -- Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Serfdom, Mercantilism, and Theocracy.
* In a Ren start, you begin with 2 settlers, a worker, and 2 longbows. If you are not in a front position you should be safe for quite a while, so send your 2 longbows to the player in front. A general rule for city placement -- pack them in tight! You'll be able to plant about 6 to 10 cities depending on your land, so quite the opposite from ancient, every city doesn't need to be a "super city" with 3 or 4 awesome resources in it. A food resource, fresh water, and some mountains to mine is all you really need. Don't worry about your cities' "fat crosses" overlapping, it will be a while before your cities are big enough that this will even be a problem, and hopefully by then your team will have already won!
* At the start of the game, build workers until you have 3 or 4 total, it's really important to work your land early -- hook up resources, cottage spam, mine hills, and road your cities together. In the end, you will need at least one worker per city to improve the land, and depending on whom you talk to you could use even more than this.
* Spread your religion to all your cities as fast as you can! Your borders will expand and you will get bonuses from whatever religious civic you are running.
* Buildings to build -- Forge and barracks are pretty much key for any city with decent production. After that, put a library in a good science city, a bank in a good commerce city, etc. You really don't need to waste time with theatres, temples, markets, courthouses, etc. unless the game gets pretty far along ... and again, hopefully your team will have already won before this point!
* Front vs. Support vs. Middle -- You could really write a separate article on strategy for each position, but in the spirit of keeping things general, I'm not going to go into that much detail.
* In the front you will need to expand less and concentrate more on defending yourself until help can arrive. Pikes to defeat Knights, Catapults to weaken stacks, are the most important defenders, along with a few Longbows and Musketmen as city defenders is generally the way to go. Your teammate behind you should start spamming knights or some other double move attack unit to you after about the first 20 turns of the game.
* In the second row, you need to expand to about 4 or 5 cities as quickly as possible, then use your fully developed cities to send double movement units (Knights, Camels, Musketeers, etc.) to support your front and hopefully take a city or two. Once you have 3 or 4 cities capable of building military, take a break in 1 city to build a quick settler, missionary, and worker, then back to military. That way you can get a few more cities while supporting your front.
* In the middle row, you have a lot more freedom to expand first and build military second, since you are pretty far away from the action. Build up your economy with cottages, get at least 6 cities, more if you can. If one of your fronts is in big trouble, you should start building double move military units for just that front. If not, talk to your teammates about which side your team will attack from, and send your units there.
* One last general tip -- if you are in a support position, you should really take a worker or two to road up to your front teammate so you can get military units to them faster ... make sure you have this done right around the time you are ready to start sending them units. If you are in the middle, you should road to both of the support players on either side of you when you can ... and if you are needed to help support a front, road to that side first.
I know I left a lot of the specifics out, but hopefully I didn't miss too much of the general stuff! I'm sure lots of people will have stuff to add, points to debate, and questions to ask ... so fire away and let's give players interested in playing in ren teamers a great place to start!
|
|
|
Post by Gogf on May 10, 2006 19:27:56 GMT -5
A few more points:
- Just like in ancient, sentry nets are VERY important. Usually people will make a very poor sentry net with just their starting units, and a single camel archer or knight with the sentry promotion can easily maneuver its way around this into an undefended city! - Don't forget to spread your religion and trade any spare resources to your teammates if they are in need. If you're in the far back and have iron, it's probably a good idea to trade it to the player in the front lines who has none. - War elephants can serve as an excellent stand in for pikes, and are in fact better than them against Conquistadors. - Chop your forests, at least around your capital. Lumbermills can be a nice boost, but at the beginning growth should take priority over that. You need to get out your settlers and workers as quickly as you can, and chopping is generally the best way to do that. - Also be aware that Russia is often banned in renaissance teamers because cossacks are extremely powerful and usually show up much sooner than rifles.
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on May 10, 2006 22:56:28 GMT -5
Just saw a new player do something pretty crazy in a teamer, totally screwed us over. He popped two Great Engineers, didn't say a thing, and used them for tech (one on chemistry, one on constitution). Didn't even think of this when I was writing my general tips, but here's a new one:
* If you are in a Ren Teamer and you get a great person, send a message to your teammates saying that you got an engineer, artist, or whatever and ask what they'd like you to do with it. Don' t just do something on your own!
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 11, 2006 2:18:58 GMT -5
nice basic tips - i usually start not with but get as indu civ a forge 1. or get a forge as non indu after 2nd worker - it s a huge difference if a chop gives something like 33 or 45 shields imo - sure then go on with choping a worker per turn and build a library when not choping to grow. fast forge and library (or maybe theater) in cap are kinda a must imo. ... use merkantilsm, espacially as phi civ ... mirco of chops is in ren even more important then in ancient - chop worker/settler and grow while building other stuff use artists clever - dont bomb your capital or so, best way to use em is for a surprise attack far on front - but u gotta know what u r doing if u try that. build 1. city forward - u got a big chance that a raligion is gonna be founded in your 2nd city - that means u get huge def bonus and fast (even faster as cap i think) boarder expand - both city def and boarder expand u want to have on front I guess. dont build to fast 3rd city - get these 5 workers or more 1. and work oyur 2 ciites - a unworked city is kinda even more useless in ren as in ancient dont build worker 1. in new ciites - I see sometimes even more experienced players doing that - it needs 10 turns .. wtf. cap needs 1 or 2 turns to get worker so build worker there and send it with the settler and build a forge 1. it grows fast and after it is finshed (maybe togehter with a chop) u got after 10 turn not a crappy size 2 city and a worker but a size 4 or 5 city with forge in and huge prod build front cities on hills - a knight vs a pike is like 11 vs 12 on open field (knight can easily win with some luck) - and a cav got good odds against kinda everything on open field - so u need huge city def bonus to give your defending pikes and muskets a chance vs knights/ cavs dont neglect catapults - I did some nice kills totaly without iron horse just with mace maybe some muskets and catas and for def vs stacks .. we all know how powerful they are in that case dont build teammates in - espacially not me - ask teammates before settling close to em - think espacily twice when planting a city closer to his cap as to yours front guys should expand forwards - on tbf the team building fast forward usually wins build coastal - u gotta think about importance of ships 40 turns before u start building em - espacilly back guys should do that build roads between teammates - early and fast - thats just so important, helping wihtout roads is kinda imposble with roads it s really fast - espacially on inland sea when being the far back guy of the 5 i allways gotta ask the "2nd to gront guy" to build streets toward front in his land. fight clever .. as allways .. go paz with phi civs - usually theo with agri - triple up guys really rock and org with spi civ to spread religion fast and then switch to paz or theo hm i dont know much more for now
|
|
|
Post by Gogf on May 11, 2006 6:31:10 GMT -5
Actually, in the open field a unpromoted knight vs. an unpromoted pike is 10 vs. 12. Unfortunately for the pikeman, though, the knight can get shock much easier than he can get formation, unless he comes from a civ led by an aggressive leader.
Also, get your cultural border out so you can work the "fat X." You can do this in two ways:
- Spread your religion to the city. This is always a good idea anyway. - Build "culture" in the city. This is great if you start out without a religion or are busy building other things in your religion city and need to wait to spread religion.
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 11, 2006 7:24:17 GMT -5
heya gogf can multiple 6x2 can u also calculate 10 +10% +25% and 6*2 +10% +10% ?
|
|
|
Post by notagoodname on May 11, 2006 8:06:06 GMT -5
heya gogf can multiple 6x2 can u also calculate 10 +10% +25% and 6*2 +10% +10% ? You need to learn how promtions work A knight with combat 1 and shock gets +10% and causes the pike to lose 25% (stupid but it's the way it gets calculated -SHOCK DOES NOT GO ON THE KNIGHTS COMBAT ODDS IT GOES AGAINST THE PIKES ODDS) So a knight with combat 1 and shock gets 10+10% = 11 (the 25% gets taken off the pike) The pikeman gets 6 + 100% +10% +10% -25% (the knights shock) = 6 + 95% = 11.7 11 vs 11.7 The double upgraded pike beats the double upgraded knight If you want proof go into world builder and set it up and do the right click attack to get the odds. Double upgraded pike beats double upgraded knight.
|
|
|
Post by Gogf on May 11, 2006 8:28:10 GMT -5
heya gogf can multiple 6x2 can u also calculate 10 +10% +25% and 6*2 +10% +10% ? You need to learn how promtions work A knight with combat 1 and shock gets +10% and causes the pike to lose 25% (stupid but it's the way it gets calculated -SHOCK DOES NOT GO ON THE KNIGHTS COMBAT ODDS IT GOES AGAINST THE PIKES ODDS) So a knight with combat 1 and shock gets 10+10% = 11 (the 25% gets taken off the pike) The pikeman gets 6 + 100% +10% +10% -25% (the knights shock) = 6 + 95% = 11.7 11 vs 11.7 The double upgraded pike beats the double upgraded knight If you want proof go into world builder and set it up and do the right click attack to get the odds. Double upgraded pike beats double upgraded knight. Actually, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. I looked at the numbers for the two possible ways that subtracting 25% could be calculated: 6 * 2.2 = 13.2 13.2 * .75 = 9.9 12 * 1.2 = 14.4 14.4 * .75 = 10.8 Then, I tried subtracting 25% from the bonuses that were applied to the pikeman. 6 * (2 + 0.2 - 0.25) = 11.7 So, instead of subtracting 25% from the pikeman, the knigt is in fact cancelling out 25% of the pikeman's bonuses.
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 11, 2006 9:58:22 GMT -5
notname is right - no need to calculate after 2000 game but when calculating odds it should not matter wheater u add 25% on 1 side or subtract 25% on other - easy math i cant really follow gogf s calculations but i get that a knight wins in 47,lil bit % of tries thats too much to rely on pikes without other bonuses
|
|
|
Post by Gogf on May 11, 2006 10:16:45 GMT -5
notname is right - no need to calculate after 2000 game but when calculating odds it should not matter wheater u add 25% on 1 side or subtract 25% on other - easy math i cant really follow gogf s calculations but i get that a knight wins in 47,lil bit % of tries thats too much to rely on pikes without other bonuses Yeah, you were right. I'm just home from school sick and bored, so I thought I might as well go through some of the calculations.
|
|
|
Post by mrgametheory on May 11, 2006 11:21:43 GMT -5
heh, I didn't see this thread before I wrote my essay on ren, but I think it would be better for you guys to check out my ren article int he general boards area, I try to cover all the good stuff.
|
|
|
Post by churchill1 on May 11, 2006 13:15:46 GMT -5
thank you so much mookie. do u mind if i pick at a few things? of course u don't about overlapping fat crosses: i'm not sure this matters so much in mp in general: because games tend to be short it is unlikely that u will 'over-populate ur cities'. and of course the decreased city maintenance is a bonus when cities are close. and yep, i am finding more and more that food resources are absolutely essential. they are so key. without them ur city will struggle to get going. i always work out what the fat cross around a potential new city will be. and getting those first 5 cultural points (by a variety of methods, cultural is a nice trait here, u don't have to worry about border expansion) is crucial. well this stuff is not reni specific, sorry i couldn't help myself. having said that i can see some stuff i have been doing wrong here. one difficulty i have had as a second row player is knowing what to do with double move units. once i saved them thinking i will build up a force and overwhelm the enemy. i was reluctant to send them to the front at first because if the enemy sees what i have they can prepare. well this back fired badly. having said that the front player always seems to slow to tell u they need help. i mean who's to say that u are not the team on the offensive. usually it seems that my team is not. . coincidence? i hope so. may be u could write a post about choice of civs. i knwo gandhi is mighty. every time i play, peeps with ganhi buildtheir civs up so so fast, although it is partly due to the fact that the better players get to take him. so i was thinking wouldnt asoka be a good choice. i know his traits arent so useful, but fastworkers are so great. whenever i play with either india i amaze myself with how quick i build my civ up.
|
|
|
Post by churchill1 on May 11, 2006 13:31:36 GMT -5
yes, nagn is right. i think the fact that shock and cover and stuff gets taken off the defender is very confusing. i don't like it. "dont build teammates in - espacially not me" hahaha tommy (how do u quote properly btw) a few more points: some players claim every tile as their own and don't allow u to expand. some kinda ask if they can settle in what is really ur space, some just tell u. how can u make a decent contribution if ur not allowed to expand? and about great people: i can sometimes ask my team what i should use a gp for and i get no response. or i ask other questions and get no response. may be i'm just bugging people . also it is amazing how quick u can get gp's with phi civ. i played with marak the other day. i was lizzy and he told me get a gs asap. well i cut a library but wanted to have my city grow so didnt use the scientist specialists right away. i realised after i could have had it in i think 6 turns ( or less). oh well i'll know next time.
|
|
|
Post by notagoodname on May 11, 2006 18:46:26 GMT -5
but when calculating odds it should not matter wheater u add 25% on 1 side or subtract 25% on other - easy math No a 25% difference in bonus isnt as major if it goes to a unit with a lower base strength. As i said knight gets 10 + 10% = 11 pike gets 6 + 100% + 10% + 10% - 25% = 11.7 If the 25% went to the knight the knight would have > 50% odds. It doesn't. notname is right - no need to calculate after 2000 game Still doesn't change the fact that you were wrong in impling a double upgraded knight beats a double upgraded pikeman and i was right . i cant really follow gogf s calculations but i get that a knight wins in 47,lil bit % of tries thats too much to rely on pikes without other bonuses Actually a slight advantage in strength causes the stronger unit to have at least a 66% win chance, strange but true. When 2 equal strength units fight the second last round of battle will leave one of those units on 0.1 strength if there is a slight strength advantage there is one less round to fight for the slightly stronger unit.
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on May 11, 2006 19:14:54 GMT -5
I strongly agree with tommy about forge first in many cities, especially for indu civs. Not only for the production, but because with mercantilism it will be the first specialist building you can use so it's a free 1 hammer + 3GPP/t.
I am one of the people who will occasionally end up building a worker first in new border cities. When I do it, though, it basically means that I f**ked up and didn't have enough workers, so all my workers are busy doing other stuff and my cities are all busy building important things. If you end up in that situation, don't be afraid to build a worker in a new city (it beats trying to grow and work nutsty land anyway) - but be aware that you ought to have built it earlier, and don't do it next time!
Oh, and I think the #1, absolutely crucial military strategy that applies in renaissance (which you won't realize until you start playing renaissance) is the huge, huge importance of Musketeers and Conquistadors, the only 2-move units that get defensive bonuses. I learned this the hard way, as Isabella on the front against Ironclad with Napoleon, and he outplayed me hard and really got me fenced in. 2 moves means that they can run through enemy territory, bouncing from hill to hill or worse, forest to forest without risking flat ground catapult action, and there isn't nuts you can do to stop them if they are promoted and intelligent. If you let a player with these into your territory at all, you are going to be really screwed really fast. Be offensive, build lots of catapults, and don't let him leverage his advantage; once you get cavalry the threat is lessened (although Musketeers with formation on hills still have good odds versus non-pinch cavalry!) If you have the UU, be extremely aggressive, mass-produce them, outmaneuver and pillage the nuts out of the guy.
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 11, 2006 21:27:31 GMT -5
ya these triple up frnech muskets can be anyoing - but they really suck in taking ciites - kinda same for coqnu - they just loose to muskets and longbows and even pikes in ciites.
therefore they arent that much my style - espacially as i think that the periods when muskets come out in masses and before cavs is the hardest to kill - often it smuch more easy before that or then just wait till cavs - cavs then beat the nuts outa all the longbows hill or not
and elledge i hardly fall into the less worker trap as i just build em right away after forge - allways - 1 per turn and if that not possible i grow - power start is just important - thats why i love gandhi even when he dont have muskets with 2 moves and antihorse or so
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on May 11, 2006 22:02:04 GMT -5
Well, if I am in the back and I am sending double move units to the front, rather than hold them back to hide the from your opponent, you can rally them a few squares behind their front city, or in their capital city, so that they are close enough to help immediately if needed, but far enough away that they won't be seen.
As for the person in the front asking for help ... it's hard to blame the front for asking for help slowly. If I'm attacking someone on the front, I'm scouting ahead, building roads, and trying to double move and catch the front by surprise. Hard to ask for help when that is the case. If you are right behind the front, get 4 to 5 cities quick and get all of them building units for the front. Once all of your cities have religion, forge, and barracks, then use 1 to continue to expand and the remaining cities to build units. That way your help is already there if your front gets attacked.
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on May 11, 2006 22:08:00 GMT -5
For myself personally, at any given time I could be moving about 5-10 workers, managing up to 6 or 7 cities, and moving units into place ... sometimes there's not always time to answer a question right away. When in doubt, fortify the great person in your city and ask again later in the turn or during the next turn.
If you are forced to assume --
Great Engineer -- hold for wonder, if it's really early, send to India or France to build Taj Mahal
Great Scientist -- send to the team's best science city for academy
Great Artist -- send to front for culture bomb
Great Merchant -- hopefully the only reason you're getting one is from discovering Economics ... probably hold for a golden age
Great Prophet -- hopefully you're not getting any of these ... again probably best to hold for a golden age, or maybe build a religious shrine if 2 really big civs share a religion or 3 civs share a religion
|
|
|
Post by ironclad on May 12, 2006 18:26:38 GMT -5
moooooooooooookie
|
|
|
Post by DrShot on May 13, 2006 2:25:16 GMT -5
Prophet and a forge in cap or high output city can often leave you a few 'hammers' away from making units every turn or every other turn, up'n the production is not always a 'waste'. Merchants work better for this as I recal, been so damned long though Best moment in ren teamer history? about to finalize the win with just about everything covered... ...some guy moves ALL units outa a city to hit a last ditch effort stack instead of a few units(pikes). the city falls and we lose... I won't say who it was but I bet IC remembers that game
|
|