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Post by amirsan on Jul 1, 2006 21:59:18 GMT -5
Hey,
Here is another question that has been bothering me as I play the game. When do you chop down those forests? I have heard various tips such as, chop down the forests on your borders, so that your enemy wont have a strategic spot as they enter your borders; chop down the forests in the tiles around our city, so a choker wont have a resting spot around your city; chop forests to rush a second worker, settler, or a wonder etc.
So when do you not chop a forest? Or is there any reason to keep forests around (except for the extra health they provide). I leave them in hills ofcourse, for the extra production. But what about when the forest is on a grassland or a plain? Do you chop it then? Wouldn't it be better to keep the extra shield when its on a plain? Or the extra shield when its on a grassland? Or would you say that a cottage/farm is more valuable then a one shield forest?
Sorry if these questions are a bit overloading, but its something thats been on my mind, it would be nice to have some of you talented players to help me out.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 1, 2006 22:12:08 GMT -5
There are two times I leave forests: 1) OCC games where health in your city is a huge huge deal I will often leave one or two pairs of forests if it is tactically feasible. 2) Extremely early game when I have spices in a forest for a 2f 1p 1c tile, I often don't chop that forest until I have calendar to improve the spides. Other than that, chop. Immediately. As soon as you possibly can. A cottage or a farm is definitely more valuable than a forest in any situation; cottages are obvious, and as for farms, 3 food is better than 2f 1p; every 1 food translates into about two or three hammers when you hit that good old "slave" button. (That is, once you have a granary. Chop the granary!) If you don't have enough workers to work the tiles - then that's what the goddamn forests are for! Chop some workers Oh, and for god's sake don't leave forests on hills. That's the worst place in the world to have them. Firstly, if an enemy archer or longbow gets on the hill, you will never, ever, ever make him leave. Secondly, a forest on a grassland hill makes 1f 2p, and a mine on the same hill makes 1f 3p. Which do you like better? Also, regarding chops: You want to chop workers and settlers (whichever you happen to need at the moment) as your first priority. This is because in general when you spend turns producing workers and settlers in the city, you're losing out; remember, like I said above, you can exact around 2 hammers per food value when you slave (20 hammers for 1 pop, and 1 pop with a granary is going to be somewhere from 7-14 food depending on city size.) So when you instead convert that food into hammers for a worker or settler instead of using it to grow pop points that you slave away, you're getting the short end of the stick. Savvy? A lot of people even micromanage their production (this is most important in renaissance, IMO) so that they are producing a normal building or unit (say, a forge) and then switch to a worker/settler for just one turn when a chop finishes. The hammers from the chop get added to the worker, and then they switch back immediately to the forge. That way the city never stops growing, but after two or three chops the forests alone can pay for the worker. The catch with this in ancient era is that chops aren't worth much each, so it's really going to be slower than you like getting that worker/settler out the door. It's probably better in the long run to resign yourself to building the worker manually with chop help, and finish it a few turns earlier.
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Post by churchill1 on Jul 2, 2006 8:43:39 GMT -5
Very well put. I don't wait until maths to start chopping. There will be plenty of trees left when you reach this early tech. Chopping early workers, settlers, granary, library is important in ur cap.
Well that's how I tend to see it anyway.
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Post by Gogf on Jul 2, 2006 9:52:23 GMT -5
Well, I would think that chopping forests is even more important in an OCC. You have so few troops that dividing them to try to defend your forests will cause problems. Then again, I've only played a few OCCs: a couple ancient, one renaissance, and a few futures.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 2, 2006 10:24:06 GMT -5
Usually I chop forests that are right next to my city, but try to leave any pairs of forests that are one square away in my fat cross. Then I go chop everything else for free hammers.
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Post by MookieNJ on Jul 2, 2006 13:07:43 GMT -5
Since the 1.61 patch, at first I will usually only chop the forests directly adjacent to my capital, and any forest hills in my fat cross. Generally, I try to wait for Mathematics to get the increased chop yield before I clear cut everything ... but of course game circumstances can change that .
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Post by churchill1 on Jul 3, 2006 4:45:57 GMT -5
I presume you know forests in your fat cross, give the same as those directly next to ur cap. In any case, when on earth do u play ancient or classical mookie? But maths is such an early tech there is a good chance u will still have forests left. Like u said it depends on circumstances, but if I can chop that library into existence a few turns early, it is really worthwhile. Oh and I kinda agree with gogf here. Those 2 forests are only gonna give u one extra health point anyway. I think may be the cons out way the pros. And in OCC ur workers run out of stuff to do real early. So when i've roaded up i go on a chopping rampage. So what if it gives one hammer, it's one hammer i didn't have before.
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Post by civerdan on Jul 3, 2006 6:10:21 GMT -5
Leave forest hills near you cap? I would never do that, besides the fact it leaves a good square for your opponent to place a unit difficult to dislodge, you get more shield from the mine (is addition to the shields gained from chopping.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 3, 2006 9:02:03 GMT -5
I don't know, man, unless it's an exceptional situation chopping forests in your cross seems insane in OCC. Every 2 forests you chop, you basically lose 1 food, since you're going to spend most of the game at the health cap. I waste worker turns chopping forests outside my radius, like Churchill.
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Post by decepticon on Jul 12, 2006 17:07:19 GMT -5
If you find yourself with lots of forests, try chopping in a manner that will give you good odds that some will grow back. For example, directly above your capitol you have a row of 3 forests. I immediately chop the center one no matter what land type its on. If you have other forests you can then go chop those instead of the remaining two. That empty land square in-between two forests will grow a new forest usually within 10 turns or so. (remember its still somewhat random, but your odds are good it'll grow back) Then you can come back and chop it again.
As for order of preference for chopping I always chop forest hills first, then plains/forest, then grassland forests. Like Elledge I leave the forests alone that will have plantations later. And it also depends on game situation wether I chop the forest on the deer or fur. (camps can go in with forest saying there)
Chop all forests but do so in a spaced manner if possible so you get some growing back. I've had a game where that middle forest in between the other two grew back over 5 times. And once I chopped it and moved away two squares and immediately on the next turn it grew back.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 12, 2006 17:32:40 GMT -5
And it also depends on game situation wether I chop the forest on the deer or fur. (camps can go in with forest saying there) Forgot about those. What determines forest regrowth? I never even thought about that.
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Post by tamijo on Jul 13, 2006 3:39:49 GMT -5
Oh, and for god's sake don't leave forests on hills. That's the worst place in the world to have them. Firstly, if an enemy archer or longbow gets on the hill, you will never, ever, ever make him leave. Secondly, a forest on a grassland hill makes 1f 2p, and a mine on the same hill makes 1f 3p. Which do you like better? A lot of people even micromanage their production (this is most important in renaissance, IMO) so that they are producing a normal building or unit (say, a forge) and then switch to a worker/settler for just one turn when a chop finishes. The hammers from the chop get added to the worker, and then they switch back immediately to the forge. That way the city never stops growing, but after two or three chops the forests alone can pay for the worker. The catch with this in ancient era is that chops aren't worth much each, so it's really going to be slower than you like getting that worker/settler out the door. It's probably better in the long run to resign yourself to building the worker manually with chop help, and finish it a few turns earlier. Regarding the mining, there's also the fact that if your hill is on a fresh water spot, the commerse only comes when the forrest is gone, that goes for any forrest tile. Regarding the micro of worker/settler - building switch I'we never found the way to switch back, can someone explain how to do that ( get back to the building, without loosing the hammers on the worker/settler) please
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Post by mrsaturn on Jul 13, 2006 6:28:24 GMT -5
Cancel building the worker/settler after you finish the chop- your hammers don't go away, just don't forget to return to finish it later on.
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Post by laststand on Jul 13, 2006 6:36:05 GMT -5
Oh, and for god's sake don't leave forests on hills. That's the worst place in the world to have them. Firstly, if an enemy archer or longbow gets on the hill, you will never, ever, ever make him leave. Secondly, a forest on a grassland hill makes 1f 2p, and a mine on the same hill makes 1f 3p. Which do you like better? A lot of people even micromanage their production (this is most important in renaissance, IMO) so that they are producing a normal building or unit (say, a forge) and then switch to a worker/settler for just one turn when a chop finishes. The hammers from the chop get added to the worker, and then they switch back immediately to the forge. That way the city never stops growing, but after two or three chops the forests alone can pay for the worker. The catch with this in ancient era is that chops aren't worth much each, so it's really going to be slower than you like getting that worker/settler out the door. It's probably better in the long run to resign yourself to building the worker manually with chop help, and finish it a few turns earlier. Regarding the mining, there's also the fact that if your hill is on a fresh water spot, the commerse only comes when the forrest is gone, that goes for any forrest tile. Regarding the micro of worker/settler - building switch I'we never found the way to switch back, can someone explain how to do that ( get back to the building, without loosing the hammers on the worker/settler) please It's easy tamijo, just go into your city, if you are currently building a, lets say barracks, click on the settler/worker, just a turn before end of chop, and it will pop up on your city screen. As soon as the settler worker is done the following turn the city will automatically revert back to building the barracks with no penalty other than you won't have the hammers for the chop as they went to the settler/worker.
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Post by mrsaturn on Jul 13, 2006 8:45:59 GMT -5
Regarding the mining, there's also the fact that if your hill is on a fresh water spot, the commerse only comes when the forrest is gone, that goes for any forrest tile. Regarding the micro of worker/settler - building switch I'we never found the way to switch back, can someone explain how to do that ( get back to the building, without loosing the hammers on the worker/settler) please It's easy tamijo, just go into your city, if you are currently building a, lets say barracks, click on the settler/worker, just a turn before end of chop, and it will pop up on your city screen. As soon as the settler worker is done the following turn the city will automatically revert back to building the barracks with no penalty other than you won't have the hammers for the chop as they went to the settler/worker. Nono, that's not exactly true. OK, here's a few scenarios- 1. You want to build a worker, but you also want your city to grow every turn. So you build something else (say a barracks), and have a worker chop a forest (takes 3 turns normally). Hit end turn. On turn 2, after you finish everything and see the red button, select the worker chopping and right click on that square. This will make the worker stop chopping, but he will have done 2 turns of chopping. Hit end turn. On turn 3, switch from barracks to the worker you want to make, and finish the chop. The hammers should be immediately added to the worker being built. Now switch back to the barracks by canceling the worker in the queue. You do not lose the hammers for this worker by canceling! Now your city can continue growing (you never lost a turn of growth), and you can chop another forest and repeat these steps. 2. You're building a worker, you're at 39/40 hammers. You finish a forest chop for 13 hammers- you're now sitting at 52/40 hammers. Your worker gets built next turn, and you have 12 leftover hammers. This goes towards your next build. If you are aggressive and then build a barracks, you get 24 leftover hammers. If you're expansive and build a granary, you also get 24 leftover hammers. So use those chops wisely! So you CAN grow your cities continuously while chopping a settler/worker, you just have to fiddle with your chopping workers and your build order a bit. Also, don't forget slavery is a great way to build settlers/workers fast if you have plenty of food surplus. 1 pop slaved is almost the same as 2 forest chops (20 vs 26 hammers). That's why I love early granaries, it acts like a mini-forge.
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Post by tamijo on Jul 13, 2006 11:02:58 GMT -5
Thanks, sounds strange that the worker/settler will "remember" the hammers they "got" I guess i'll have do try this in a single player setup.
And yes i use the early granary more and more to slave faster. sometimes even chop if in a perfect food situation.
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Post by Matlowe on Dec 10, 2006 2:12:30 GMT -5
i always chop the forests around my city first. This stops any creepy crawlies coming in to rest there, and they become very hard to remove especially fortifed across river. Of course you chop all your Hilled forests first that is the main priority when chopping. it is too hard to kill when there is a bow double hill defense fortified in a forested hill:) even a woodsman warrior is difficult unless you have copper for axes. I leave all my forests around the edge of my border for after the Mathematics tech so i get the extra hammers from them. 10 hammers is just too little for a 3 turn chop and definetley not worth it.
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