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Post by churchill1 on Sept 2, 2006 0:30:08 GMT -5
We need to make a "noobing it up" song:
I want to noob u up baby, tonight I want to noob u up real slow
This noob was made for loving you
etc etc
It basically writes itself.
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Post by mrsaturn on Sept 27, 2006 21:34:13 GMT -5
Some random stuff...
Always build near fresh water. Only cases where you might not do that are if it's your 2nd city and you want to plant it on a hill, or if you need a strategic resource fast that's not near fresh water. I just played a game where a teammate was complaining his MFG sucked because his cities were small... he placed all his cities 1 tile away from rivers for some odd reason and were sick as heck.
If you're on the front and you're still learning or are facing a really good rush player, build defense in your 2nd city. Screw the worker, you need to be ready to defend because your allies won't reach you for a while. Also, build your 2nd city within 3 tiles of your first city if possible. I don't think I will ever be a good frontline player that's aggressive- I stay alive if I have a decent sized border between me and the enemy. So don't overextend. People hate losing the game in the first 20 turns. If you're good, then do whatever you want.
If you're on the front and you're facing Spain, find/trade for war elephants ASAP.
Road your front. Road your front. Road your front. Chop your front. Chop your front. Chop your front.
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Post by notagoodname on Oct 16, 2006 23:32:16 GMT -5
Hardly anyone uses serfdom from the start anymore and with good reason. It takes 2 turns to chop forest in serfdom or not. If you choose a spiritual civ (as you should unless it's france) there is no reason not to select a different civic at the start when you are chopping. I recommend caste system for a very quick artist or slavery for an extra worker.
When do people go for the great engineer? As ghandi i usually try for it after the first artist, that way i will get near 100% certainty for the GP being an engi and i'll have it in time for nationalism. The only downside is the that you are left with one 1 artist on 1 front.
If you don't feel you can take the enemy early don't even try, it is so easy to wipe out an attacking army with catapults it is pretty much never worth trying until you get cavalry or have a ton of conquistadors choking.
Building wealth or research and getting to military tradition quicker is one of the most underrated tactics. I wouldn't do it for the frontline civs or if the enemy is much stronger but building research can get you to nationalism a few turns quicker. That guarantees you the taj and also will wind up getting you to mil tradition much quicker.
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Post by Tony on Oct 17, 2006 3:32:26 GMT -5
I havnt really played all that much ren recently, but im starting to love spritual trait! (In all eras)
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Post by metallian on Oct 17, 2006 4:34:19 GMT -5
I havnt really played all that much ren recently, but im starting to love spritual trait! (In all eras) LOL Tony, I don't play any other civs other than Spi civs.
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Post by metallian on Oct 17, 2006 4:37:32 GMT -5
Slavery at the beginning doesn't help because you aren't able to get your roads up to your resources fast enough or food resources, therefore the civ will fall behind.
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 17, 2006 7:43:16 GMT -5
If you don't feel you can take the enemy early don't even try, it is so easy to wipe out an attacking army with catapults it is pretty much never worth trying until you get cavalry or have a ton of conquistadors choking. No, do try. Otherwise you are in for a very boring game.
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Post by notagoodname on Oct 17, 2006 19:52:39 GMT -5
Slavery at the beginning doesn't help because you aren't able to get your roads up to your resources fast enough or food resources, therefore the civ will fall behind. Building roads in the first 5 turns rather than chopping in a ren game? Come on now pull the other one
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Post by MookieNJ on Oct 17, 2006 20:43:53 GMT -5
Building roads in the first 5 turns rather than chopping in a ren game? Come on now pull the other one If you're on the front and need to get a crucial resource or road your 2 cities together, early roads are not a bad idea.
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Post by notagoodname on Oct 17, 2006 21:29:22 GMT -5
Yes but not in the first 5 turns... Chopping extra workers at the start is really nessesary.
I suppose an early chariot rush might make an exception if you have horse nearby but then if i had horse nearby i'd do a chariot rush properly (build right on the horse and slave/chop a chariot out every turn in every city starting from turn 1).
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Post by notagoodname on Oct 30, 2006 18:55:41 GMT -5
Screw going gunpowder first, musketmen don't have a particular use in ren, pikes, knights and catapults are a much better combo.
Instead go for nationalism first then go gunpowder then go mil tradition. This ensures you get the taj first even without a great engineer.
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 30, 2006 20:39:02 GMT -5
LOL yeah. I've had "the" tech order for reni teamers ingrained into me so that I don't dare think of alternatives.
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Post by notagoodname on Oct 30, 2006 21:01:39 GMT -5
Yeah it's something i only recently started doing as there isn't always a french teammate anymore who needs gunpowder.
The taj is also a really important wonder so it's definitly worth the swapping of the tech order.
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Post by cv431410 on Nov 6, 2006 19:51:55 GMT -5
My 2 cents:
I love to be a part of 4v4 or 5v5, but hate to be in the front line; however, I am in frontline 90% of time. There are several points we want to make:
(1) Front line players do not have time to make settlers, and quite often, not even for workers. That responsibility should fall into the second line players. Unfortunately, most of the second line players do not understand this, even when I beg them for settlers and workers, I still do not get them.
(2) When facing a good opponent, the front line cities are attack by two players with two stacks. The two stacks, controlled by two well-coordinated players, can go for one city or two cities. Under this circumstance, the front line player’s role is to defend the first city and it is the second line player’s duties, with his units, to defend the second city, which is usually the capital. Otherwise the frontline players will be overwhelmed. (The attack comes in the last 5 seconds of a turn and fast reaction is a matter of live or die). Most of the time, the second line player simply drop units to the front line player and pay no attention.
(3) As opposite of (2), the offense must be done by both front line player and second line player. Two well coordinated players can do far more than a single attacker.
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Post by notagoodname on Nov 6, 2006 23:44:06 GMT -5
The number 1 thing to do when on the front is to have a single frontline city. Get the other players to give you an artist asap and that frontline city will be able to block roads in a huge area and they enemy won't be able to double move into any of your other cities.
You should try for a few workers no matter what, the one you start with can chop out a second worker in just 1 chop of a forest. So by taking the time (2 turns) to chop that forest you now have double the chopping capacity. Chopping is the main source of early hammers so it's important to have plenty of chopping capacity.
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Post by mrsaturn on Nov 7, 2006 0:14:30 GMT -5
Just curious, if people go for nationalism first, does India still make an artist first while making a forge in the cap, then building an engineer after that? Does the engineer pop out before nationalism is discovered?
Some advice for new teamer players that get stuck on the front-
Don't overextend your second city. Try to have at least 3 or 4 squares between your border city and your enemy's border city. That, or plant within 3 tiles of your capital so you can send units from there in 1 turn.
You've probably picked a spiritual civ, so make the most of your first few turns. Saladin might be nice since he's protective and spiritual. Here's what I used to do... I dunno if the strategy changed since I stopped playing-
Turn 1- plant capital, build forge, move worker to nearby forest, move all units to enemy. Change civics.
Turn 2- chop forest, move all units to enemy, look for a nice border city spot with explorer. cancel your forest chop before end of turn.
Turn 3- change capital build order to worker, finish chopping forest, plant 2nd city if possible, look for strategic squares around your border like forest hills and make sure enemy doesn't get to them. 2nd city builds whatever you want- worker if you're confident, catapult or longbow if you're not.
Turn 4- you made a new worker. Move both workers to different forests near capital. If there's a strategic defense tile bordering your border city, plant longbow there so enemy explorer can't sit there.
Turn 5- chop 2 forests with both workers. Cancel chop before end of turn.
Turn 6- change capital build order to settler, finish chopping both forests.
From then on, build your 3rd city behind your border city, hopefully next to some strategic resource and food. Maybe chop another worker, find iron, and churn out catapults and pikemen, depending on what race you're facing. If you're facing Spain, get elephants (yourself or trade for it) ASAP. And road your frontline.
By changing build orders to worker/settler only for 1 turn, you can let your capital grow during those first 6 turns. Chopping once gives enough shields for 1 worker, chopping twice gives enough for 1 settler.
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Post by MookieNJ on Nov 7, 2006 0:49:36 GMT -5
(1) Front line players do not have time to make settlers, and quite often, not even for workers. That responsibility should fall into the second line players. Unfortunately, most of the second line players do not understand this, even when I beg them for settlers and workers, I still do not get them. You're correct in that 90% of players in teamers have no clue what it means to actually work together as a team. They just sit back and play ctons against each other. Sending the front-line players Workers and Settlers will only hurt their scores. However, you're incorrect in that being placed on the front-line is not an excuse to beg for Workers and Settlers and build none for yourself. It's not like you're going to be under immediate attack ... unless you're up against Arabia the only units you need to worry about early are Longbows. No big deal, they are slow moving and not too strong. Build a Catapult and/or a Mace and build your own Workers. If you don't feel comfortable on the Front, only build one extra Settler. Plant him behind your capital. Now you've got 3 cities in a row -- your front city (don't plant a 2 city front with your first 2 Settlers or you're just begging to die very quickly), then your capital, then your third city. Only your front city will be easily threatened, and now you'll have 2 cities behind it to help build units to defend it. Eventually if your teammates stop playing ctons and actually decide to build some units to help you out, it will be safe to expand further ... just keep everything nicely planted behind the front city and things shouldn't get out of hand. At this point, whether you build the Settlers yourself or they are gifted to you isn't a huge deal. For the most part, I have no idea what you're talking about here. All units should generally be rallied to the front city. The front player's capital should never really be at issue unless the front player has a learning disability and planted a 2 city front. Don't plant a 2 city front. Although, it is quite annoying when a player from the back sends his or her units up to the front, refuses to gift them and refuses to pay attention to what is going on at the end of every turn. If you're not going to gift away your units, you'd better be watching for double moves and attacks at the end of every turn. If you can't be bothered to do this, just gift the units to the front-line player -- I'd hope that he or she would be watching for an attack at the end of every turn! I wouldn't agree with this, it's a pretty bland generalization. Often it's easier for one good player to control all the units than to try to coordinate with another player. With two people trying to accomplish teamwork, a lot can go wrong ... with one person ready to catapult and then attack immediately, or whatever the case may be, it's usually a lot easier. Many times I've sat there watching someone do nothing after explaining to them what to do and when to do it ... if they'd just gifted the units to me it would have been over and done with. Now if you've got two really good players actually working well together ... that's a different story.
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Post by cv431410 on Nov 7, 2006 8:13:22 GMT -5
>>I wouldn't agree with this, it's a pretty bland generalization. Often it's easier for one good player to control all the units than to try to coordinate with another player. With two people trying to accomplish teamwork, a lot can go wrong ... with one person ready to catapult and then attack immediately, or whatever the case may be, it's usually a lot easier. Many times I've sat there watching someone do nothing after explaining to them what to do and when to do it ... if they'd just gifted the units to me it would have been over and done with. << Yes, the coordination can be a problem, but can be done. Here is why:
Case 1 The key to defend a city is the siege weapon and collateral damage units unless attack force is much larger. It is not uncommon that a defender has 8 cats (can be produced by 1 city in 8 turns). An attacker will usually have 2 stacks, the first one will be attacked by siege weapon, and the second stack covers the first stack. Otherwise the entire attacking stack will be heavily damaged and the attack will halt.
When two attackers with 4 individual stack, it will overwhelm the defender and gets 3 out of 4 stacks to the city without much damage. Next turn, the city falls.
Case 2 The first attacker put pressure on the first city with 2 stacks, and the second attacker, with double movement units, attack the next city. Again, it will overwhelm the defender.
I would rank offense this order:
Two well-coordinated attackers with N units One good attacker with N units Two poorly-coordinated attackers with N units One poor attacker with N units
No real coordination will be required if two players attack two cities, except timing.
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Post by cv431410 on Nov 7, 2006 8:38:09 GMT -5
>> You should try for a few workers no matter what, the one you start with can chop out a second worker in just 1 chop of a forest. So by taking the time (2 turns) to chop that forest you now have double the chopping capacity. Chopping is the main source of early hammers so it's important to have plenty of chopping capacity. << Thanks, I learned somthing because I usually use the first worker for food to grow city, while the city is doing forge.
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Post by cv431410 on Nov 7, 2006 9:25:01 GMT -5
>>However, you're incorrect in that being placed on the front-line is not an excuse to beg for Workers and Settlers and build none for yourself. It's not like you're going to be under immediate attack ... unless you're up against Arabia the only units you need to worry about early are Longbows. No big deal, they are slow moving and not too strong. Build a Catapult and/or a Mace and build your own Workers.
<< Timing, my friend, it is all about timing. It is not that I do not want build settler, I just can't build them on time. I want my third city up asap. I think it will be benefical to the entire team if the second line player build my third city brfore his 5th city.
A team is strong if there is no low power player in the team. Cooperation between team is not only for units, resources, and tech, which all players know, but also for strategy (N:1 attack vs 1:1 attack, when, whre, how to attack, reponsibility in artist production, units production, gold production, research cities, ...), workers, great people, city placement, and cities. Basically, a team must act like 1 peron, instead of 5.
Lacking cooperation between team member in strategy, workers, great people, city placement, and city are really problems.
Also, I found this is really help, instead of calling the front line player newbie, treat the front city as your own, and consider defending the front line city as defending your own city. Treat front line player's city as your city, and treat front line land as your own land. If you can do this, you will help front liner to build third city before you build your own 4th or 5th city.
Here is my best lines:
Me: "India, can I have 1 settler and 2 workers?" India: "Who do you think I am, Santa Claus?"
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