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Post by churchill1 on Jun 16, 2006 13:05:55 GMT -5
The worker first thing is simple. Sometimes I just don't have enough workers, despite best efforts; maybe the worker that was going to improve my city is building an emergency road, or hooking up an extra resource for a teammate, or I miscalculated how fast another city was going to grow, or my enemy stole it. Given that, I'd rather spend 6 (in ren) turns building a new one in my new city, instead of have it grow a little while producing a little bit of some crappo building and working another unused tile. But worker first usually means you f**ked up and you don't have enough workers to go around. Well I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been prioritising road building high enough, so may be this is why I usually have enough workers. Also, I may be don't like to expand so quickly which is another reason why I have enough. Another problem with workers is that they tend not to be where you want them at the right time. It might take as many turns to move a worker to your new city as it will to build one. Though I think this could be solved with some micromanagement, i.e. moving a closer one and having the further one take over his job (or something. Also planning ahead for this situation is good and planting close by, on what is not neccessarily the best spot available to you.
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Post by Atomation on Jun 16, 2006 14:18:03 GMT -5
Workers first for cities 1 and 2, at least, is much more effecient than making a forge in nearly every era - but moreso the later the era where land improvements really mean big production. Even the switch production technique isn't worth it on turn 1, if you grind out the math of it. Why? Well, 1 extra size doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans. You might gain 1 hammer per size - remember you need *three* tiles improved before you gain any noticeable benefit from a size 3 city. Since you will likely be chopping right away or after mining/irrigating major resources, it is very unlikely that you will have a third square improved by the time you hit size 3 if you choose to build something that allows you to grow in the mean time. If you pump out the workers, however, you'll notice that each point of population really starts meaning something, since you will hit that 3rd and 4th tile improvement at the city much sooner. Moral of the story? Pump out the workers fast and furious. The more workers you have early, the less you will need over the course of the game, because they can keep up with new cities as they are built and you won't need to build more just to "catch up" with improving. Forges aren't bad, but I am pretty sure most people overvalue them when they should be valuing turbo workers a bit more. Tommy might like the forges too much because he plays too much india and he doesn't need as many workers to make the cities worth a size 3 - but its a bit different for the slow worker civs .
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Post by Elledge on Jun 16, 2006 15:40:43 GMT -5
The worker first thing is simple. Sometimes I just don't have enough workers, despite best efforts; maybe the worker that was going to improve my city is building an emergency road, or hooking up an extra resource for a teammate, or I miscalculated how fast another city was going to grow, or my enemy stole it. Given that, I'd rather spend 6 (in ren) turns building a new one in my new city, instead of have it grow a little while producing a little bit of some crappo building and working another unused tile. But worker first usually means you f**ked up and you don't have enough workers to go around. Well I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been prioritising road building high enough, so may be this is why I usually have enough workers. Also, I may be don't like to expand so quickly which is another reason why I have enough. Another problem with workers is that they tend not to be where you want them at the right time. It might take as many turns to move a worker to your new city as it will to build one. Though I think this could be solved with some micromanagement, i.e. moving a closer one and having the further one take over his job (or something. Also planning ahead for this situation is good and planting close by, on what is not neccessarily the best spot available to you. That's just what I mean. Sometimes due to poor planning you just don't have the workers in the right place at the right time. At least I don't yet.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 16, 2006 16:32:20 GMT -5
Well we need a plan of action to make sure we always have our workers in the right places at the right time. May be then we will be able to eradicate the filth that is worker first in new cities from our otherwise utopian society.
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Post by ironclad on Jun 20, 2006 22:58:47 GMT -5
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 21, 2006 21:14:40 GMT -5
In ren era start building a forge in your cap first. Chop with your first worker. After 1 turn of chopping tell that worker to stop the chop. Switch production to worker in your capital next turn and finish the chop. This will give you a worker in 1 turn (ends up being just as quick as building a worker only from start) and it will put a bit of production towards a forge as well as letting your city grow.
This is especially important to do for industrial civs as building a forge gives you double hammers, building workers doesn't.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 21, 2006 21:41:59 GMT -5
You better count your hammers before you do that. Depending on your land you might not be able to get the worker out with one chop and one turn.
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Post by MookieNJ on Jun 22, 2006 1:42:41 GMT -5
In ren I almost always go worker first in new cities. Why? Well because if you don't you will have that city building a forge (most likely) and it could take a while. You are going to want to chop that forge right? Well then you're capital or other city that is up and running needs to take time to build another worker. If you go worker first in new cities you can chop the forge right after the worker. Then your capital or other city won't have to take time to build another worker to chop the forge and can invest sheilds in units or other important things. I usually go worker first in my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th cities. I try to chop the workers in my 3rd and 4th cities though so it doesn't take so long ... I don't want to leave those cities as size 2 forever! After that, I usually have enough workers to go building first in my 5th city and beyond ... and then sometimes if I get to 7 or 8 cities but need to be building units ASAP, I'll just go worker first in a new city because my other workers are busy chopping units and finishing up improving my earlier cities. Plus, if I'm not on the front, I'll send 2 or 3 workers to road to the front so I can send units quickly ... if the front guy is having troubles improving his land or didn't build enough workers I'll stick around for 10 turns or so helping him or her out. That means I'll need to build more workers back home ... not because I messed up by not building enough workers, but because I'm just a nice guy!
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 22, 2006 3:29:45 GMT -5
They don't come any nicer than you mook.
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Post by deyreepher on Jun 25, 2006 13:12:31 GMT -5
No roads on the front = death in teamers. It's so hard to intercept double move units with minimal defense and having very few roads. Just think of roads as a force multiplier when on defense. Being able to move units to any hot spot in your territory is priceless. If you're not being pressured, it also opens up angles to "steal" workers, harass the other guy, and maybe get a kill.
Depending upon the era, the fronts have probably culture bombed each other which makes roads that much more important.
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Post by Atomation on Jun 26, 2006 13:46:15 GMT -5
In ren era start building a forge in your cap first. Chop with your first worker. After 1 turn of chopping tell that worker to stop the chop. Switch production to worker in your capital next turn and finish the chop. This will give you a worker in 1 turn (ends up being just as quick as building a worker only from start) and it will put a bit of production towards a forge as well as letting your city grow. This is especially important to do for industrial civs as building a forge gives you double hammers, building workers doesn't. You might want to look at it this way: How long does it take to get returns on your growth/forge investment? It takes a really long time. Growth to size 3 is the longest gap for many sizes, because the granary is not full yet, and a forge, even at double production, still takes a really long time. There is no guarentee that you will have enough hammers to finish a worker with 1 chop and 1 turn of work, either. What's more, just because you can finish a worker in 1 turn and 1 chop doesn't mean you watch to switch over from a forge - the extra hammers don't just go to waste; they are put into the next worker so it will be out sooner.
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Post by notagoodname on Jul 8, 2006 4:49:12 GMT -5
In 3v3 or 2v2 ren teamers if their culutre bombs aren't bothering you too much i think it's worth while to use a great artist to get nationalism 10 turns sooner rather than bombing back. Even if your city it right on the border you will soon be able to take out his culture city once you get cavalry 10 turns sooner then them (assuming you already have cats on a hill near there).
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Post by notagoodname on Jul 8, 2006 6:02:06 GMT -5
There is no guarentee that you will have enough hammers to finish a worker with 1 chop and 1 turn of work, either. What's more, just because you can finish a worker in 1 turn and 1 chop doesn't mean you watch to switch over from a forge - the extra hammers don't just go to waste; they are put into the next worker so it will be out sooner. In ren games you will always get a worker in 1 after 1 close chop (2sqaures away) from your capital city provided you have 2 squares that give 3 food or prod or combination thereof (2 forests or a floodplain is enough). Try it for your self and see So if you can get a worker in 1 turn after 1 chop then you may as well. It is a lot of micromanagement to switch back and forth but it will grow your cities faster than those that spend more than 1 turn building workers.
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Post by tommynt on Jul 8, 2006 8:45:42 GMT -5
cap need only a chop other ciites need 2 or 3 turns and a chop to0 get a worker. im a fast forge fan, with all this chop overflow i m often abel to get settler in 1 turn even without a finished chop in cap after 2nd worker usually - it ll pay off easily after 3 or 4 chops not to speak about the engineur
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Post by churchill1 on Jul 8, 2006 23:26:00 GMT -5
Yeah I try get forge first in most cities. Depending on my worker situation. Yes I do go worker 1st in new cities sometimes. But only sometimes. And I try and chop that worker with another worker if i can. I must say I dont micromanage chops in ren teamers. I find I don't have time. In fact I find I don't have time as it is.
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Post by churchill1 on Jul 8, 2006 23:28:51 GMT -5
In 3v3 or 2v2 ren teamers if their culutre bombs aren't bothering you too much i think it's worth while to use a great artist to get nationalism 10 turns sooner rather than bombing back. Even if your city it right on the border you will soon be able to take out his culture city once you get cavalry 10 turns sooner then them (assuming you already have cats on a hill near there). Yep. Good call. I still don't know exactly how great people in teamers work. I.e. How the size of the team effects the amount the GP gives. Or may be the GP always gives the same amount, it's just the amount of total beakers required that varies.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 9, 2006 3:19:07 GMT -5
Or may be the GP always gives the same amount, it's just the amount of total beakers required that varies.
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Post by churchill1 on Jul 9, 2006 11:20:32 GMT -5
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Post by MookieNJ on Sept 1, 2006 23:17:24 GMT -5
NO 2 CITY FRONTS PLEASE!!! I cannot emphasize this enough.
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Post by deyreepher on Sept 1, 2006 23:24:11 GMT -5
Yeah, if you really want to noob it up. Go for a 3 city front. You might confuse the enemy. *Credits go to Atomation for that joke*
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