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Post by MookieNJ on May 13, 2006 3:21:32 GMT -5
I never seem to think of adding specialists to the city, but adding a prophet gives a nice boost in production and gold. I guess it depends on the outlook of the game -- if it looks like it could go down to the wire, maybe it's a good idea to add to city, but if it looks like a golden age will help end the game quickly, why drag it out? Go for the kill! Probably a moot point with Great Prophets in a Ren Teamer though, as they are pretty uncommon. Unless someone were to build Spiral Minaret and Angor Wat in the same city ... .
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Post by tommynt on May 13, 2006 5:58:05 GMT -5
keep in mind that u ll breed in a 5 man team on avarage only 1/5 of specialists u could breed when playing allone. That makes using the few guys u get clevr more important and as a teamer in oposite to a epic or single player game got a turn limit - u should do something helping in short run more as long run - so ge tech or golde age but fo sure not a specialist
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Post by churchill1 on May 14, 2006 1:27:54 GMT -5
that's interesting tommy. sure if a specialist gives a useful tech i will take it. but generally i like adding specialists to my cap. golden age is always nice of course. if u add a science specialist to a city with an academy and a library that's a nice little earner
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Post by Elledge on May 14, 2006 8:31:39 GMT -5
that's interesting tommy. sure if a specialist gives a useful tech i will take it. but generally i like adding specialists to my cap. golden age is always nice of course. if u add a science specialist to a city with an academy and a library that's a nice little earner Things are a lot different in a team game in this regard, and in 80-120 turn elim. A great scientist will usually get 1000ish beakers toward a useful tech in that era immediately; if you put it in a city with an academy and library, that's +6 * 1.75 = 10.5 extra beakers per turn (right?) which isn't going to pay off for around 100 turns. That doesn't make a lot of sense. In fact, even the academy itself doesn't make a lot of sense unless you are putting it in a very good and it's generating at least 30 or 40 extra beakers per turn, and you aren't in a rush for a military tech (like chem.)
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Post by ironclad on May 15, 2006 1:36:35 GMT -5
haha shot i rememeber that game lol!
woops ;D
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Post by churchill1 on May 15, 2006 12:25:24 GMT -5
yes elledge i'd been coming round to that way of thinking. i just couldn't be bothered to do the maths. i'm glad you did it for me . having said that, sometimes ur great scientist can give a pretty useless tech.
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Post by mrsaturn on May 16, 2006 1:20:44 GMT -5
* Once you are in the game, the first thing to do is switch your civics. Until you feel comfortable with more advanced strategy, your best bet is to start in -- Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Serfdom, Mercantilism, and Theocracy. About this- wouldn't caste system be better than serfdom, especially for spiritual civs? With immediate mercantalism, you'll have a citizen goofing off until you can build a forge or library, which usually is 10 turns or more. With caste system, you can pump out a great scientist faster and win the race to liberalism, or get a headstart on a (hopefully) great engineer. If you're spiritual, you can switch to serfdom as soon as you build your forge or library.
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Post by MookieNJ on May 16, 2006 5:02:39 GMT -5
About this- wouldn't caste system be better than serfdom, especially for spiritual civs? With immediate mercantalism, you'll have a citizen goofing off until you can build a forge or library, which usually is 10 turns or more. With caste system, you can pump out a great scientist faster and win the race to liberalism, or get a headstart on a (hopefully) great engineer. If you're spiritual, you can switch to serfdom as soon as you build your forge or library. Nope, caste system at the beginning of the game is really a bad idea in my opinion. You absolutely need serfdom so you can chop workers and settlers, hook up a few resources, and build roads. You are better off going serfdom and chopping a quick theatre, forge, library, or whatever kind of building you need for the great person you want to pop.
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Post by Elledge on May 16, 2006 6:56:45 GMT -5
If the first tech or two made a big difference, that might be an interesting strategy for a Phi civ in the back lines, Saturn; but unfortunately, tech doesn't really start to have a huge impact until either chemistry or military tradition, both a few techs down the line.
However, if there was a GP that could research Nationalism, it could be worth it to lock a Taj Mahal first. Is there? I don't think there is.
Plus, consider that a forge or library is pretty quick if you chop it.
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Post by notagoodname on May 16, 2006 23:43:59 GMT -5
An artist can get nationalism after printing press is discovered. In single player/ctons you can use a great scientist to get education. You can then use another scientist to get printing press, once you have printing press you can than get nationalism with 1 artist and then once you have printing press, edu and nation you can get liberalism with 1 artist which you can use to get mil trad So for 2 artists and 2 scientists you can get education, printing, nationalism, liberalism and mil trad, in the meantime you can research gunpowder and chemistry. It's possible to do this in ~30 turns in single player which gets you off to a good start In multiplayer teamers techs cost around X times more (where X is the cost multiplyer of techs based on number of people on a team). GPs however dont give X times more tech to the cause when used instantly, so if you have 5 players per team a GP will only get you less than half way where with 1 player in a cton you would get that tech with a single GP. So in 5v5 teamers you will find GPs can't score instant techs. So i think the best use for non-engineer GPs is golden ages for games that last <150 turns. Golden ages will give you almost an extra hammer per pop for 5-6 turns. So that's around 500-600 hammers for a good back line builder (with 100 pop total). That isn't even including the extra gold you will get Just dont spend your GPs for a golden age until you are really well established. One other thing try to give your back line palyers as much room as possible. If your back line player has 50 cities and your front line guys have 5 each that is actually better than having 20 cities per player as golden ages will count for a lot more and your back line player can always get versailles and forbidden palace to counter maitainence.
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Post by tommynt on May 17, 2006 1:30:29 GMT -5
the smaller the team the more useful is using great guys for techs - in 1-1 it s key to win - in 5-5 and bigger the tech boost is so small that it s often more useful to do something else - like some wonder with eng religion spread thing with prohet academy in your supersiencecap from teammate or this bomb we all love so much
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Post by deyreepher on May 17, 2006 3:38:00 GMT -5
* Once you are in the game, the first thing to do is switch your civics. Until you feel comfortable with more advanced strategy, your best bet is to start in -- Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Serfdom, Mercantilism, and Theocracy. About this- wouldn't caste system be better than serfdom, especially for spiritual civs? With immediate mercantalism, you'll have a citizen goofing off until you can build a forge or library, which usually is 10 turns or more. With caste system, you can pump out a great scientist faster and win the race to liberalism, or get a headstart on a (hopefully) great engineer. If you're spiritual, you can switch to serfdom as soon as you build your forge or library. Serfdom is far more important than caste system. You don't want to give up those early chops. A theater/library/forge is in most cases just 1 chop with maybe 1-2 turns of city production left to finish it off. If it takes time to finish off a particular city building you can work your food resources or get a farm up. This is a max of 5 turns. Crippling your city to get great people is counter-productive. You really don't need more than 2 specialists in a city, which the appropriate building will allow you to do (library/theater) to pop the great person you want early in a game. If possible you'll want to start roads to your fronts as expediently as possible. That is just a pain without serfdom. The quicker you can get those Great People to where they need to be, the more options you have.
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Post by mrsaturn on May 18, 2006 2:11:48 GMT -5
I know see that serfdom is much more important than caste system at the start- building roads in 1 turn and chopping in 2 is huge, as is mining iron in 2 turns, especially for the frontline. But getting a great artist for the frontline city still shouldn't be neglected... that 80% defense bonus is HUGE, especially early when there are no cats and a longbow can hold off early camels.
If you're on the frontline and you're facing Saladin, hook up iron ASAP and guard it, and make pikes! Don't let the enemy park an explorer on that iron hill, there's a 40% chance your longbow won't be able to dislodge it- park your own explorer there. Vs Saladin, you could face camels in your territory by turn 10, so pikemen are your priority.
As for religious civics, I'm not convinced there's any one that's better than the rest... in a 5v5, 4 players will have no religion. Theocracy is the standard choice, but it depends on where your starting position is. If you're philosophical and not on the frontline, I'd go pacifism, pray that you get religion, and pump out a theater/GA or whatever ASAP (using mercantalism). If you're on the frontline, get theocracy. Organized religion is nice, but monasteries aren't that hard to build for missionaries. If you're Saladin, you have a lot to juggle in the start, between fast camels, fast GP, and your no anarchy spiritualism.
I'm pretty convinced that all things being equal, Saladin decides the outcome of the early game with fast camels, and Napoleon the middle game with fast musketeers.
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Post by tommynt on May 18, 2006 2:50:07 GMT -5
civs ll very unlikly decede games but players do I once played a 2-2 on island map where my teammate made me crazzy by going caste system. In the end it paid out good i think - on the kinda tiny land u needed only about 3-4 workers aynway and he just built 1 more - while building (choping) workers u can nicly have your 2-3 GP with acste system after a workered food res without hurting city too much. and these 3 specialists pop GP with paz and phi like crazzy. he was lucky to have liike 4 fishes in range and could feed at some times like 6 specialists - so for a back player espacialy saldain in back caste system is defenitly something to consider in start of game untill u got library/ forge/ theater up. It s not my style but for players who wont crazy expand anyway it s definatly a good way to help team Oh well sure u need a STRONG partner / front player backing that caste player up - in the 2-2 I just brought fight away from him by constatly attacking or threatening opponents - and some guys still think attacking me is a good idea .. I can just say go for some1 else next time
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Post by soulja173 on May 27, 2006 11:49:49 GMT -5
During my game play I've noticed many people settle within a spot were I can put a 2 move unit on a tile and threaten both cities. Especially in renaissance era were 2 move units are fast to produce. My tip would be avoid this kind of city placement. Hey but what do I know I'm pretty new to ladder
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Post by ironclad on May 27, 2006 11:56:01 GMT -5
if u cant kill him when he is already that deep he can just bypass u
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Post by tommynt on May 27, 2006 13:08:27 GMT -5
soulja u r right that thats in theory bad - but boraders expand often fast (religio, artist) and usually u can easily kill units in your land - if not easily at least u should kill em
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Post by MookieNJ on May 27, 2006 13:55:39 GMT -5
You are right, in theory this is pretty bad, especially if there is a hill tile that your opponent can occupy and use to threaten 2 cities at once.
However, in practice, if you settle your cities too far apart on the front, you will be unable to quickly reinforce your front. You can also put a hills upgraded longbow and pike, or two, on the hill to make sure your opponent can't use it to hurt you. Also, as tommy said, once your borders expand through religion or an artist, you should have plenty of advance warning if the enemy enters your land. If you've done a good job roading your front, you should have no problem using catapults on the stack and then finishing it off before your back cites are in any danger.
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Post by deyreepher on May 28, 2006 0:19:28 GMT -5
Road your front.
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Post by LeExp on May 31, 2006 9:43:13 GMT -5
No matter what I do I keep losing my first city these days.... Dey what did you do to me?? I've become just like you I am officially the master of 1 city try to take it out! I dare you!
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