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Post by MookieNJ on May 31, 2006 12:14:46 GMT -5
Stop looking for iron with your second settler so you don't plant that city so damn far away!
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Post by deyreepher on May 31, 2006 12:44:22 GMT -5
You're not officially the master of 1 City yet, young padawan. You have to survive and your team must win the game. As of yet, you've been dying.
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Post by LeExp on Jun 2, 2006 12:08:55 GMT -5
Got it no more settler taking a long walk around the map, bad idea..
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Post by Atomation on Jun 2, 2006 15:41:25 GMT -5
Yeah settler walking is bad news. Especially if your opponent is smart and goes for units first instead of a forge/barracks as most people seem to do. An unexpected force of 5 camel archers with 1 or no upgrades can almost certainly take any city.....yet I see people consistently building workers, forges, barracks, etc before building what might surely remove someone from the game immediately!
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Post by knupp on Jun 4, 2006 8:46:23 GMT -5
Yeah settler walking is bad news. Especially if your opponent is smart and goes for units first instead of a forge/barracks as most people seem to do. An unexpected force of 5 camel archers with 1 or no upgrades can almost certainly take any city.....yet I see people consistently building workers, forges, barracks, etc before building what might surely remove someone from the game immediately! That's a decision you have to make when you are on the front. You could rush someone and go for a kill asap but you are banking everything on this strategy. What if the opponent has iron, 2 pikes kill those 5 camel archers. That means you just wasted a lot of production in your first cities as well as some forest (probably) and you will be behind. However, if you go forge, barracks, workers first and get yourself established you will have a better chance of surviving or killing later on in the game than you would if you went for the rush. An experienced player will almost always be able to fend of a rush of 5 unpromoted camel archers and I'd usually opt for getting yourself established first. Unless you know the opponent on the front is a noob who won't be ready for a rush.
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Post by Atomation on Jun 4, 2006 11:59:34 GMT -5
Remember that they have 2 - 3 cities to strike at, that's what your explorer is for . The trick with early 10 power strike force is their mobility to hit at any city with very little warning...
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Post by knupp on Jun 4, 2006 15:04:05 GMT -5
Maybe so Phitrigger but I've seen people slave in the beginning just to go for that early rush. If it doesn't work then you've basically screwed over your civ for the rest of the early part of the game.
Plus now you're vulnerable to be attacked.
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Post by Polydeukes on Jun 4, 2006 23:14:20 GMT -5
Hmmm now i know a lot more about the renaissance era. Maybe ill play one day one of those 5vs5 ren teamer. Who knows?!
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 6, 2006 0:31:35 GMT -5
if ur on the front and u chop a camel archer first thing it's gonna be pretty tough for em to cope with. tho i've not tried it so i dont know. it's like a chariot rush. once the first one is in there and they havent hooked their metal up - they're f****ed
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Post by Atomation on Jun 7, 2006 14:11:24 GMT -5
A chop then slavery for a camel out and moving on turn 3 is pretty brutal too, but sets you back a bit if you don't have a food resource, especially since slavery means 4 turns till you can use serfdom.
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Post by Gogf on Jun 8, 2006 5:37:11 GMT -5
it's like a chariot rush. once the first one is in there and they havent hooked their metal up - they're f****ed Not really. It's much easier for your teammates to help you out in a renaissance game than an ancient game.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 8, 2006 7:38:36 GMT -5
yep gogf absolutely right. but u do impede their initial growth.
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Post by Gogf on Jun 8, 2006 16:33:55 GMT -5
yep gogf absolutely right. but u do impede their initial growth. Yes, but rushing also impedes your initial growth. You'll be able to start growing a bit sooner than them, true, but it's generally not a great strategy to expend a lot of effort rushing them unless you go for a kill. Musketeers and conquistadors are both very potent choking units until the other team gets cavs, thoguh.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 15, 2006 14:52:42 GMT -5
nice basic tips - i usually start not with but get as indu civ a forge 1. or get a forge as non indu after 2nd worker - it s a huge difference if a chop gives something like 33 or 45 shields imo - sure then go on with choping a worker per turn and build a library when not choping to grow. yep early librarly in cap is really useful, even if you havent built any cottages the cap gets a base of 8 gold, might as well make this 10. But why would u need it for the culture (theatre is better for this and a lot cheaper). Also imo cap doesnt need so much culture because it is likely to be fenced in pretty quick by other cities. fast forge and library (or maybe theater) in cap are kinda a must imo. ... use merkantilsm, espacially as phi civ ... mirco of chops is in ren even more important then in ancient - chop worker/settler and grow while building other stuff. Totally agree. . I'd like medium timer to make sure I can do this early. But in the later game medium timer is too long. use artists clever - dont bomb your capital or so, best way to use em is for a surprise attack far on front - but u gotta know what u r doing if u try that. build 1. city forward - u got a big chance that a raligion is gonna be founded in your 2nd city - that means u get huge def bonus and fast (even faster as cap i think) boarder expand - both city def and boarder expand u want to have on front I guess. Really good point. Though if your on the front and you don't get a religion it really hurts. I was on the front against arabia recently and got bombed real early so that my cap was on the very edge of his border . dont build to fast 3rd city - get these 5 workers or more 1. and work oyur 2 ciites - a unworked city is kinda even more useless in ren as in ancient dont build worker 1. in new ciites - I see sometimes even more experienced players doing that - it needs 10 turns .. wtf. WTF indeed. What's with that? I see it in anc teamers too. And my blood boils. Though I have got into the habit of going worker first in my second city, just cos everyone else does it really. I'm not really sure it's the best way to go. Esp. if ur industrious. Though I have tried to seek out a plains hill so that it can make a worker in may be 5t (I think). cap needs 1 or 2 turns to get worker so build worker there and send it with the settler and build a forge 1. it grows fast and after it is finshed (maybe togehter with a chop) u got after 10 turn not a crappy size 2 city and a worker but a size 4 or 5 city with forge in and huge prod build front cities on hills - a knight vs a pike is like 11 vs 12 on open field (knight can easily win with some luck) - and a cav got good odds against kinda everything on open field - so u need huge city def bonus to give your defending pikes and muskets a chance vs knights/ cavs dont neglect catapults - I did some nice kills totaly without iron horse just with mace maybe some muskets and catas and for def vs stacks .. we all know how powerful they are in that case. It's so easy to neglect catapults because they are so cheap. You kinda think why would i want to build a unit that is only using up half my hammers for this turn. Well they are worth more than the game developers think . A good % of ur army should be catas. For this reason I like to build them in less productive cities. Then they don't feel left out and are producing units just as quick . dont build teammates in - espacially not me - ask teammates before settling close to em - think espacily twice when planting a city closer to his cap as to yours front guys should expand forwards - on tbf the team building fast forward usually wins.. Well, I got a mega telling off for planting close to a teammate the other day. Yep, I shoulda asked but I would have been told no. And I really think it was justified as I had little space to expand into and he had much to the north. He hadnt expanded much already so he might as well expand there first. I was able to expand quicker, so i might as well take that space. But I think I am probably missing something here. build coastal - u gotta think about importance of ships 40 turns before u start building em - espacilly back guys should do that build roads between teammates - early and fast - thats just so important, helping wihtout roads is kinda imposble with roads it s really fast - espacially on inland sea when being the far back guy of the 5 i allways gotta ask the "2nd to gront guy" to build streets toward front in his land... I have always thought chopping and working land take mega priority over roading...not so. Of course all are important so as Elledge say..."Think how many workers you like then double it." ^^ fight clever .. as allways .. ... HOW? For the love of God, how? Well I am pretty inexperienced in these teamers but i can only think of one kill I have taken. This is mainly because when in the back I just gift units. And when on the front I am either on defensecos the other guy is better . Or I have more units but dunno how to use em properly. So please post ur tips here. These things I do know however: If on the front it might be a good idea to build just ur 2 cities and road em up to other guys front city. Build mace, catas and a couple pikes. Pretty soon these cities will be very productive so u should be able to do this quick. Take units to hopefully a longbow who is by the guys city on a hill or in forest (or preferably both). Promote a couple catas to bombard and u'll take down defence real quick. If he has been concentrating on growth and not defence u should take a kill. Well I certainly don't speak from experience but I would like to give this a try. Also if u take a stack of knights or cavs in, be ready with a second stack. As soon as oppo unleashes the catas put in ur healthy units, so he can't kill so many units (other wise he will kill all ur units, which is very embarassing ) Finally best units for this era (until cavs even after this i would say they are useful to protect cav stacks) are conquistador and musketeers ( double move defensive units)., I have only recently come to realise their beauty. ^^. Have them jump from hill to forest to hill and scare the crap out of oppo. if they are threatening 2 cities at once it is perfect. if they are lucky the might move all the way back to some city which hasnt been roaded and has no chance of defending itself. I have seen this mega stack of musketeers from oppo sitting in our front's territory not able to get a kill. If they just moved back a couple more times they would get a kill without losing a unit. Easier said than done i am sure. Musketeer-conquistador combo stacks are almost literally impossible to kill. Just pray. Also these units are good for cutting off roads. Use quick move to move to road, pillage it and move back to safety next turn. Also I think U gotta be some real confident (and may be arrogant) guy. Cos i just get dead nervous. go paz with phi civs - usually theo with agri - triple up guys really rock and org with spi civ . this makes total sense. also early on u will be making many forges and barracks and org makes buildings x.25 quicker with religion.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 15, 2006 15:14:55 GMT -5
hm i would also suggest u only try and kill oppos explorer if he is on a non defensive tile. losing an early bow is baaad news.
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Post by knupp on Jun 15, 2006 19:07:55 GMT -5
In ren I almost always go worker first in new cities. Why?
Well because if you don't you will have that city building a forge (most likely) and it could take a while. You are going to want to chop that forge right? Well then you're capital or other city that is up and running needs to take time to build another worker.
If you go worker first in new cities you can chop the forge right after the worker. Then your capital or other city won't have to take time to build another worker to chop the forge and can invest sheilds in units or other important things.
I'm not sure about Anc, but I usually don't like to build workers first in new cities in ANC. I will build a barracks/granary/unit until size 2 then switch to a worker and whip when it allows. Then go back to whatever I was building before.
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Post by ironclad on Jun 15, 2006 22:12:26 GMT -5
knupp built two workers and died in anc and made it on tommy's list
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 15, 2006 23:43:36 GMT -5
In ren I almost always go worker first in new cities. Why? Well because if you don't you will have that city building a forge (most likely) and it could take a while. You are going to want to chop that forge right? Well then you're capital or other city that is up and running needs to take time to build another worker. If you go worker first in new cities you can chop the forge right after the worker. Then your capital or other city won't have to take time to build another worker to chop the forge and can invest sheilds in units or other important things. I'm not sure about Anc, but I usually don't like to build workers first in new cities in ANC. I will build a barracks/granary/unit until size 2 then switch to a worker and whip when it allows. Then go back to whatever I was building before. hehe IC. YEah there is a certain irony here. Though I am sure Knupp 'll be the first to acknowledge it. hm aren't workers important things?? look at tommy's explanation of why u should buil workers elsewhere and have em ready. In stead of an awful size 2 city after 8 or more turns u can get a really great may be size 4-5 city with forge
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Post by Elledge on Jun 16, 2006 9:03:43 GMT -5
The worker first thing is simple. Sometimes I just don't have enough workers, despite best efforts; maybe the worker that was going to improve my city is building an emergency road, or hooking up an extra resource for a teammate, or I miscalculated how fast another city was going to grow, or my enemy stole it.
Given that, I'd rather spend 6 (in ren) turns building a new one in my new city, instead of have it grow a little while producing a little bit of some crappo building and working another unused tile.
But worker first usually means you f**ked up and you don't have enough workers to go around.
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Post by knupp on Jun 16, 2006 12:20:45 GMT -5
Haha IC. ;D
Never again have I built a worker first in Anc. I don't care what anybody else does but now I think it's better to just whip it later on after building a warrior or two.
I don't see how building workers first in new cities in Ren means you f**ked up. If you don't then you will have to build workers in your capital which will delay forge, library, barrack and unit builds there which you might desperately need. I guess I just like to have a lot of workers. In ren games I will chop out 2 in the beginning in my cap plus the one you start out with and build another in each new city.
Delaying growth for 6 turns pays off imo when you can chop that forge and improve your land faster without having to build extra workers in your cap.
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