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Post by Avogadro on Nov 3, 2005 11:46:41 GMT -5
it is a balance. A warmongerer may have several cities, less gold may affect science though. And from some saves have have seen one can have alot of cities if proper financial support/cottages etc. In 120 turn games I have seen civs with a dozen town or so.
Some may tech for points whole game other do like c3c get the techs you want for army, shut off techs, save gold and upgrade.
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Post by tommynt on Nov 3, 2005 14:47:19 GMT -5
as my last game has shown again - if opp got better land all u can do is build either a nuts load of archers what srewes u or die to superior units like horsesarcher
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 3, 2005 15:57:02 GMT -5
So your saying that is several of your starts you had neither copper or iron within range of a second city? I've had weak starts and I've been choked until I hooked up iron or copper and then came back, but the gam rarely leaves you with no options, just perhaps a lack of immediate resourses in your first city area. And that is not neccesarily a game stopper.
CS
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Post by whiplash on Nov 3, 2005 16:03:10 GMT -5
I think Tommy's point is that the game lacks a good non-resourse dependent defensive unit. In ancient c3c you can build archer/spear combos; and in future starts tows are effective.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 3, 2005 17:09:12 GMT -5
Well archers are not bad, if I scout my neighbour in a FFA and see he has horses I'll build a worker chop a couple trees and build a baracks from then I either build walls or a City D1 archer depending on what my sentry net tells me. city D1 archers are a match for chariots, and a Combat 1 archer can take a chariot in the open.
And if I have copper/iron then life really sucks for the horse rusher as combat 1 spears are killers of Horse Archers let alone chariots. I think C3C vets still think of spears as defensive units when in CIV you can take them on the road no problem.
CS
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 3, 2005 19:23:28 GMT -5
No one "rushes" with horse archers - Horseback Riding is a significantly expensive early technology for a reason. If you find yourself without bronze, know they have horses, and don't go straight for masonry and archery, you deserve what you get.
A standard archer fortified in a town has a slight advantage on a chariot, and is cheaper to boot.
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Post by sparta on Nov 3, 2005 20:49:03 GMT -5
I've tried rushing with war chariots (egypt) and immortal chariots (persia) and sometimes it worked quite well; if I got them out early enough I'd be able to take the warrior-defended cities.
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Post by tommynt on Nov 4, 2005 8:35:17 GMT -5
i m not talking bout having horse or not - also not about no way to defend your capital - but if some1 comes with something like a horsearcher and a axeman in your land and u dont have any res close he ll just pillage you till u are done with the game -
the problem with the res is that they give a dobleboost - to production and superior units - this doubleboost makes em too important
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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 4, 2005 12:18:25 GMT -5
It's not that they give a double boost, it's that they occur too randomly. When you put so much emphasis on something like strategic resources it can no longer be a random feature. Didn't anyone on this beta tester team have common sense? For that matter, if you wanted to copy AOC so bad why did you keep random factors like this in? AOC was successful because it didn't have random factors to influence the paly...that and it had great gameplay that allowed people to gain high levels of skill while leaving others at the bottom of the ladder...something I can't say the same for civ4.
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 4, 2005 18:22:50 GMT -5
Please be careful not to insult multiple members of the community, or you will find your rights here restricted.
Obviously, the beta tester members of this community have common sense.
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Post by Death to ALL on Nov 4, 2005 18:38:08 GMT -5
Random resources, while greatly improved over that of C3C. You will very rarely have a start without at least one of the resources in the general area. This IMO tho would separate the great players form the more mediocre ones, as a great player would be able to take what ever they had and make it work. That is strategy.
DTA
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Post by TheGoddess on Nov 4, 2005 20:25:23 GMT -5
Never seen a map where resources were such a major problem. Even if I didnt have horses or iron, it really wasnt a problem to go and get them.
I believe the resource problems many seem to be experiencing here now have to do with the "amount" of resources. CIV has alot of different resources as well as lux , too many if you ask me.
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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 4, 2005 23:36:46 GMT -5
Never seen a map where resources were such a major problem. Even if I didnt have horses or iron, it really wasnt a problem to go and get them. Same here.... I've never had resource problems. I usually have either horse or iron, and often I'll have both.
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Post by ghost on Nov 5, 2005 3:14:12 GMT -5
u want to increase the chance of iron/copper showing up. mine a couple hills before u discover ironworking or bronze working. always nice to find iron/copper on a grassland or plains square in your land. i consider this a bonus hill in my land ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by themagiceye on Nov 5, 2005 8:34:39 GMT -5
i think tommy was referring to classical starts... the availability of a horse resource sometimes makes it very unfair...especially as enemies r very close in most games i played - and u can build that horses right from start. im new to this game and dont have a real overview yet... but tell me how i defend vs persian chariot (=immortal) rush in early (classical start) game when theres no ressource available and persia has horse in cap? that actually happened in my first classical start. they somehow seem to be same price and twice as strong as archers ?! im just thinking of an ancient c3c game where jags r 2-2-2 and 5 shields....no one would regard that to be fair. in the best case u just get pillaged to death....in the normal case u would die. maybe wrong place to post here...should make a seperate thread about unit balancing.
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Post by yilar on Nov 5, 2005 8:59:59 GMT -5
There needs to be some universal no bonus unit with 4-5str for some 20-25 shields or so. Else you can forget fighthing off the chariot rush if you dont have copper/iron hooked before the chariots start comming.
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Post by sparta on Nov 5, 2005 11:59:17 GMT -5
Easy solution to taking out archers defending cities: Swords (NOT Jags, not chariots, they suck)
Chariots are also pretty bad, I always slice through them with archers, or I just research straight to Spears and get them out ASAP, your opponent won't be able to get lots of chariots out THAT fast.
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Trayk
Worker
Lets Party at your place!!
Posts: 148
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Post by Trayk on Nov 5, 2005 12:31:27 GMT -5
There needs to be some universal no bonus unit with 4-5str for some 20-25 shields or so. Else you can forget fighthing off the chariot rush if you dont have copper/iron hooked before the chariots start comming. BUNK Archers stand a even up chance vs chariots. If your civ has poped one culture you get a 20% bonus to defense, now they have an advantage. Put up walls, Chariots have no chance.
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Post by skidbladnir on Nov 5, 2005 14:13:49 GMT -5
thing is.. we re not only talking of city attacking/defending/kills, but also land plundering, choke, for which bonuses arent the same anymore
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Post by Death to ALL on Nov 5, 2005 14:47:52 GMT -5
Go straight for spears if you feel a choke with chariots coming. Have to remember that spears are no longer only used for deffending, They make a very good attack unit against mounted (including chariots) enemies.
DTA
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