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Post by Canucksoldier on Mar 30, 2007 8:23:59 GMT -5
More clans = more matches for each event = more time required for each match. Sometimes, more is not better. Exactly. More clans, more matches for each event, more time for each match. Adding a new event was a bad idea and I don't think we thought this one through. Most of the small clans can't do more than a few events anyway, so even if we have 16 clans taking part in most events there will likely not be more than 8-10 clans. But we will see how it works out and make adjustments for the next CCC as required. CS
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Post by Speaker on Mar 30, 2007 11:32:33 GMT -5
Well you are allowed upto 20 players, if a clan enters with less than that, then they know from the outset that they may have to make strategic decisions as to what matches to play and what not to play. It's all part of the CCC weekend games Considering the fact that the major clans (RaY, MUD, MDR, LKT, GOD, etc) have never or rarely ever missed an event, and do not carry 20-player rosters, I do not think this is true at all. The CCC schedule could be much better organized, to allow more time for each event, or to shorten events that always take *way* too much time (ie Industrial and Renaissance). We could fit the OCC semi-CTOn or another 3v3 teamer alongside the Future on Friday night, or have a later Saturday night start (EST) that plays into Sunday without much difficulty. Respectfully I disagree. The CCC, in my opinion, is about having great team work, unselfish play and players who are willing to do whatever the clan needs them to, well thought out strategies, and the ability to adjust on the fly to whatever the circumstances of the game demand. Kind of like how settings are changed from one CCC to the next? Or how SPM posts his proposed settings a week or two before CCC and asks for input and then makes changes accordingly without a SINGLE CCC's "proof?" There is no precedent that requires a "couple CCC's" proof. Please don't presume to tell Mookie what CCC is all about for a clan? Under his direction, RaY is probably the most organized clan playing Civ4, as evident by the fact that we have never missed an event, delayed an event, or even struggled to field a team for an event. We always have ready and willing subs hanging around in case we need them. With reserve, I will share some of our secrets: we have several strategies prepared for each event based on what the particular map layout calls for, sub-forums in our forum about every event, scouting reports on different opponents, and do a ton of entrainement (to quote our favorite opponents) for each CCC event, where all players give input to the scheduled players for each event. Telling Mookie and the rest of RaY that CCC is "CCC is about being a clan not just about a bunch of friends that play civ for a weekend" feels very condescending to me. What the CCC was "designed for" in the past is irrelevant. The ladder is supposed to be about the players who play! By my count, only 4 of the 16 clans signed up for CCC have a 20-player roster. That is just 25%, and several of those 4 have frequently missed or held up events in the past. Talk about catering to the majority. Requested yes, but not to be played in the time slot where it is. I have played in several of those Saturday events in the past, and know from experience that they can last for over 15 hours. You are giving all the clans very little room for flexibility here. Just one man's opinions...
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Post by Speaker on Mar 30, 2007 11:48:05 GMT -5
Wow- 85 turn events are ridiculously long now? I guess I am completely out of touch. An 85-turn future game (without space race) would not be ridiculously long? Do you know how the turn timers scale Longhorn? You have played on the ladder for almost a year, but still make comments like this? How is that possible? While an 85-turn ancient game would not be ridiculously long, under certain settings, any other era could be. Why play more when less would suffice? Good attempt at sarcasm. Unfortunately this is completely irrelevant. You do know that turns are shorter in Ancient than in Classical right? And that turns in Classical are shorter than in Medieval? And that turns in Medieval are shorter than in Renaissance? And that turns in Renaissance are shorter than turns in Industrial? And that turns in Industrial are shorter than turns in Modern? And that turns in Modern are shorter than turns in Future? Right? RIGHT? We know you would Longhorn. All the players with the "innovations," as you so aptly put it (ie, players who actually have attempted to improve at the game, unlike you) know exactly how you like to play. I believe a quote/paraphrase from you is: "I don't like to build workers, it feels like wasting production. I'll just take hand-me-downs when my teammates are finished working their land." As for me, I'd rather not wait for two teams with bad pings to each other to play a points race for 150 turns, when the same points race could have finished in 90 turns. How much actually changes in those last 60 turns? The more units that get built, the more the game lags, and the more other teams must wait. In a 16-team tournament, where the winner must play 4 games, we don't have time for 4 hour games. No event should take 16 hours except for the Ironman. This is why the 5-5 event was scrapped after a single CCC and very few have asked for it back since. You don't enjoy the stressful war (rushing) aspects of the game. Fine. So play always peace, or play one-team per continent, or play OCC, or play epics. But don't try to stubbornly stick to your old play style that was mildly successful when the game first came out, and then complain that what other players are doing is taking away your enjoyment. Darwin's theory at it's finest in work here. Honestly, I have had a hard time taking your suggestions and comments seriously since the worker comment above.
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Post by knupp on Mar 30, 2007 14:07:47 GMT -5
The Ironman Prelim, 1v1, and Cton are all played on Friday. This means that minimum clan involvement is needed today. What about moving the modern event to Friday...(to)night?
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Post by NumberOneMercury on Mar 30, 2007 14:48:44 GMT -5
Looks like Krill is on two roosters.
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Post by whitebull on Mar 30, 2007 15:37:58 GMT -5
Looks like Krill is on two roosters. Couldn't he play for 2 clans ? ;D
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Post by Canucksoldier on Mar 30, 2007 15:39:03 GMT -5
Looks like Krill is on two roosters. Couldn't he play for 2 clans ? ;D No your not allowed to sell used goods here CS
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Post by tamijo on Mar 31, 2007 3:24:11 GMT -5
Is 16 clans reg. for the CCC. Why dont y ask the 16 clans what they want. Seems to me that the same 5-6 players is dominating this "suggestion" tread every CCC, what about the other 150 ?
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Post by Bantams on Mar 31, 2007 3:35:02 GMT -5
The Ironman Prelim, 1v1, and Cton are all played on Friday. This means that minimum clan involvement is needed today. What about moving the modern event to Friday...(to)night? No A better idea would be move the Anc teamer to friday imo we already have a Future on Friday and the modern may lag some but the Anc on Friday would be a good Idea!
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Post by venceslas on Mar 31, 2007 4:44:16 GMT -5
Just put a poll(one vote for one clan) in the council forum, and take the majority chris.
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Post by zzZhenon on Mar 31, 2007 16:54:56 GMT -5
I'm gonna once again suggest that the Medi event be changed to TBG. Frankly, TBG is played much more and I rarely see Inland Medi in day-to-day games. Spekker- if RaY didn't win so much, the Saturday CCC schedule wouldn't be as hectic, hehe. On another note, with all of these new clans and a new expansion due out in 6? months, we can only expect the CCC to grow. We are already capped out in clans and the more clans we have the longer each event will become. Perhaps we need to encourage larger clans and raise the roster cap. PS -- This is the roster of the original CCC in civ3. We know SPM and CS have the experience in handling the CCC. I trust their judgement, but do think they might be slightly out of touch with the current games being played ladder-wide.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Mar 31, 2007 21:15:33 GMT -5
While me and SPM don't play as much as some players, we do play this game atleast once a week if not more, that and the time I personally spend in the lobby, I think we are in touch with what is happening on the ladder. The issue of more clans is something we will have to look at and the solutions are not simple, and all have there good and bad points. We have always wanted a one weekend CCC since this is manageable for both the staff and players. But perhaps we will have to look at some sort of pre qualifier options, to keep the size of the CCC reasonable and manageable, we are open to ideas.
CS
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Post by DustyDragoon on Mar 31, 2007 21:41:34 GMT -5
One thing that might speed things up is to limit the time allowed to start games. If game is scheduled for say 2:00 and your team is not ready at 2:00 you forfeit your chance to play. Today we had to wait at least 45 mins while another team sorted out who would play and who would not and even suggested they should register and hope for a bye. This to me is very unsportsmanlike and should not be allowed. Don't hold up the other clans because your own clan can't sort things out before game time.
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Post by venceslas on Apr 1, 2007 1:37:08 GMT -5
I have not the feeling that this CCC was slower than the previous neither major clan has had problem to fill team(MUD and A had a real roster very few so it's normal that they had trouble). Well, sure if RAY has won the indus has usual, maybe they would be like explained by Mookie. However it imply that all your teams go to final.
chris.
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Post by Bantams on Apr 1, 2007 2:12:47 GMT -5
One thing that might speed things up is to limit the time allowed to start games. If game is scheduled for say 2:00 and your team is not ready at 2:00 you forfeit your chance to play. Today we had to wait at least 45 mins while another team sorted out who would play and who would not and even suggested they should register and hope for a bye. This to me is very unsportsmanlike and should not be allowed. Don't hold up the other clans because your own clan can't sort things out before game time. The TD in charge should have removed the other team from the event after 10minutes if it was round 1 round 2 onwards can be difficult due to players playing in round 1 however if BOTH team got a bye to round 2 then played each other If one wasnt ready then the 10 minute grace period should have been in force but the event start time for round 2 is usually 1 hour after round 1 so its a tricky one to TD!
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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 1, 2007 14:48:37 GMT -5
I agree we need to stick to the 10min rule, if that was being bent this CCC it won't be the next CCC, myself I thought this was pretty clear from several CCC ago. But I'm sure our HTD can sort this out with his staff for the next CCC.
CS
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Post by deviousdevil on Apr 1, 2007 17:20:20 GMT -5
Five things:
1. The limit of events one person can play. Remove it, it only really applies to one player me, why have it?
2. Those events taking forever are due to it being 3vs3 and not a smaller map and 2vs2. Standard 3vs3 you have very little action for much of the game due the distances involved, 2vs2 it'll be closer, more brutal and will run smoother. It will also be easier to field a team for.
3. Gamespy going down crushed the CCC, this could be avoided by having a myleague chatroom for matchmaking and swapping ip to play by direct ip. Cut out the awful middleman.
4. Admins - either not turning up to start events, filling in the results incorrectly and worst with inconsistent decisions. RaY get a 45 minute delay cos they didn't have their players together to start an event, whilst MUD get kicked out, OS getting cheated by MUD as well was suspect and these are only the ones I can be bothered to remember. At present GOD has no admin and I for one would be happy to serve in the matter of balance as other clans do get a presence. At present it is like the security council of the UN but only three countries/clans sits on it RaY, MUD and KC to my knowledge. This is evidenced by decisions made and the layout and composition of the CCC. The times of play RaY claim are hard on them, well I had to play till 1 am (hell often 2 am) on Friday and be up at 6 am for the indu and as a result have 4 hours sleep between ending a week at work and midnight Saturday. I think it is probably worse for many europeans in the French clans. The Indu starts FAR too early and takes to long, start it later and make it a 2vs2.
5. Byes. Why should clans get points if they lose a game after getting to a point scoring position via a bye. They achieved zero, just turned up, again this favoured our competition far more and in events like the 2vs2 random random a bye is gold dust given the mad land that can arise (part of the fun of that event). But when CCC are going down to the wire, it isn't right one clan if getting gifted points.
Rant and serious discussion over.
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Post by deviousdevil on Apr 1, 2007 17:22:47 GMT -5
I agree we need to stick to the 10min rule, if that was being bent this CCC it won't be the next CCC, myself I thought this was pretty clear from several CCC ago. But I'm sure our HTD can sort this out with his staff for the next CCC. CS Why bend it? Gifting points, lalala.
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Post by MookieNJ on Apr 1, 2007 18:16:43 GMT -5
RaY get a 45 minute delay cos they didn't have their players together to start an event Uhhh, this is a complete exaggeration. It was 15 minutes tops while we were finishing off LKT in the Future finals. We had them one player down and were in the process of killing a second player when the Industrial started. We asked for a few minutes to complete the game, and Knupp was selecting his units to kill a second city from their other front player when Metallian told us that we would be eliminated if we didn't join now. So we got subs for the Future and joined the Industrial. Furthermore, FUN reported the loss to LKT yet continued to play for 30-45 minutes before they would leave the game and let LKT finally advance to play us. Finally, if you want to talk about giving people time, KC received 1 hour before being eliminated from the 1v1 ...
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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 2, 2007 0:20:35 GMT -5
RaY get a 45 minute delay cos they didn't have their players together to start an event Uhhh, this is a complete exaggeration. It was 15 minutes tops while we were finishing off LKT in the Future finals. We had them one player down and were in the process of killing a second player when the Industrial started. We asked for a few minutes to complete the game, and Knupp was selecting his units to kill a second city from their other front player when Metallian told us that we would be eliminated if we didn't join now. So we got subs for the Future and joined the Industrial. Furthermore, FUN reported the loss to LKT yet continued to play for 30-45 minutes before they would leave the game and let LKT finally advance to play us. Finally, if you want to talk about giving people time, KC received 1 hour before being eliminated from the 1v1 ... Well I wasn't home from work yet or that would not have happened either. CS
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