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Post by markweston on Apr 16, 2006 19:37:16 GMT -5
Sigh.
I'm no longer surprised, but I am still amazed at the number of gamers who think they can completely analyse the effects of a rules-change or patch based on one (incomplete) playing.
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 17, 2006 1:46:56 GMT -5
lol. I didnt play on ladder before 1.52, so I dont remember any complaints . All I know is, the game is now all about who has the highest production, more so than before. The value of having a high GNP is significantly lower than high production. You say that, but I'm gonna keep teching and winning ;D Nah i can remember only several Ren Inland Sea games where one of the teams survived until Riflemans. It's so rare it's not even funny. All water maps end with a kill, most likely even before cavalry. In Modern you'll be lucky if you'll research 2 techs In Ancient teching is still semi-important but noone focus on research there anyway. Well the French are way ahead of you. They had new balanced mods before the patch by at least 3 or 4 months, games where you could choose to play with at least one of the resources, say iron horses or bronze and two were within reach, they also had 20% less build costs. The deciding factors in these games in all scenarios were, versatility, skill, and adaptability, it's a shame that these sort of mods weren't picked up by those on cases, they've been around since not long after 1.51, and there the reason I stopped playing 1.51. That and the exploits. nm too late now, but the modders can't all be French, if you don't like it mod it. Stop whining. The mods are out there, you can chose to play with them or not. But you do have a choice. Well, we can't communicate with them because we don't know french. They can communicate with us, bring their mods (say, if it will be popular then maybe it will be in CCC). But they don't do it. It's their choice, and so be it. I don't see how we're responsible for their choice. If they want to be completely separated from a world's Civ 4 ladder community, it's their problems.
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 17, 2006 3:41:43 GMT -5
Also, i don't think that it's hard to make mods. Most mods will require only small changes in XML files (may be done in a matter of minutes). It's harder to change map scripts, but it's not that hard as well if we don't chage actual map generation. It's much easier to change a starting location only or other changes that don't involve shapes of the continents etc.
So, if we want mods, we need experienced players who'll decide which kind of mods are worth trying. And we need support from a players who host games so these mods will actually be played.
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Post by eiffel on Apr 17, 2006 11:56:32 GMT -5
Well, we can't communicate with them because we don't know french. They can communicate with us, bring their mods (say, if it will be popular then maybe it will be in CCC). But they don't do it. It's their choice, and so be it. I don't see how we're responsible for their choice. If they want to be completely separated from a world's Civ 4 ladder community, it's their problems. Elle, elle, elle.... just because I know you don't like when you're called Elle... don't talk about french like this ;D I think there is about half of the CCC players that are french or french speaking and we don't ask that the official language would be french, so be nice ;D
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Post by venceslas on Apr 17, 2006 12:02:26 GMT -5
I think Avogadro had posted a link here for the OCC mode created by SophII.
Ellestar it's hard to speak here, when the leitmotiv is:
One Game, One Ladder, One Community
Speaking about another community is not always welcome here. So we frenchies avoid to write here about our community. That's possible my post will be censured under the reason : " advertise competing services".
Actually I will say you are rather isolated here with such leitmotiv.
For example, I'm not sure that you know there is a WCL(World champion league) where players from French,Germany,Italian,Polish and others civ community are struggling for the supreme title. Competition has begun for two months.
To be honest, I will say CCC is actually, by the number of players, by his oldness, the greatest event in the civ world.
WCL(organised by the germany ladder) may be a great event in the future, but actually, it's just an internationnal event.
chris.
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Post by Elledge on Apr 17, 2006 12:11:58 GMT -5
You say that, but I'm gonna keep teching and winning ;D Nah i can remember only several Ren Inland Sea games where one of the teams survived until Riflemans. It's so rare it's not even funny. All water maps end with a kill, most likely even before cavalry. In Modern you'll be lucky if you'll research 2 techs In Ancient teching is still semi-important but noone focus on research there anyway. Just because only half a dozen or a dozen techs are discovered doesn't mean that the -speed- of the techs aren't important. The first team to cavalry carries a very strong advantage until the other team gets it; likewise with frigates and riflemen. Plus, I would not be surprised if we started seeing plays toward democracy after cavalry now that US is fixed. Rush buying is extremely powerful for a cottage-ish sort of player; it would immediately put his effective production at much more than any more hammer-oriented civ. Ancient and Classical are simply all about tech and who stays alive and gets to the key units and techs first; axes, knights, and so forth. At least that's my experience, and that's what I play toward, and it works. On another note, I agree with tommy that the chop nerf makes it quite a bit more who-gets-the-land dice rolling. If you have four strong resources in your capital, you are going to be a hell of a lot quicker on your feet than a guy with a river and maybe an ivory, whereas before the guy with a river would chop out expansion before resource improvement and settle fresh land, evening things a bit. However, I do like the unit cost decrease. It's actually especially noticable with early workers and settlers (to me), as it picks up some of the slack from less chops.
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Post by Tony on Apr 17, 2006 13:09:13 GMT -5
Tommynt, I thought you were one of the better players out there? As to the changes, I am seeing alot more kills in the games I've been playing (CTON Ancient). And I am having alot more fun. I'm not a good player but I am now getting things done more than I was before and I am making it farther up the tech tree. Don't know everything as to what changes have been made, but whatever they were, I'm enjoying it. You being the better player, I would think you would be able to find away to play around the changes in order for it to more suit your playstyle. So you lose a few do to the changes and you have to learn to adapt, but is that not the true ability of a champ? DustyDragoon Dusty everyone wants more agression but what tommy is saying is its a balance issue, i have played 6-7 games over the past few days and found in 1v1, if you dont have resource in capital you are truly screwed, if the other guy is above average. How had is it to hook up copper and send a axe. Charriot rushes are almost impossible to stop, send 4-5 charriors to someone one and im not sure how they can stop it. In this respect chops are not been too badly down graded for units, as they are cheaper, so a single chops can often results in 3 charriots in 3-5 turns. The super fast chop for settler was very much needed for a quick resource. Ctons are a little diffrent but alot of the same principles still apply. Since the patch as been out i havnt been in the unfortunate situation of getting resource screwed, but have got others in that situation a few times, and havnt really noticed any really bad errors on there part. I belive the patch has been desinged to encourage civ development and not chop rushing, but its unleashed a diffrent beast. Getting on enermy land and breaking work is even more key then before, now it seems more about land, who has more resources, and production.
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Post by MMV on Apr 17, 2006 13:20:13 GMT -5
as far the french ladder, I've never seen them turn an applicant away.
chopping? Yes - nerfed a bit, but this morning I chopped for 2nd worker with 1st worker, 3rd worker with 1st and 2nd, then stonehenge, then oracle, then settler. There were no resources in my cap, but 2nd settler took me to iron with the 3 workers leading the way with roads and were on the iron to mine it the same turn my settler settled.
Took a BIT more time, but still effective.
as far as resources, WHEN have they NOT been an issue in any of the previous Civ games, lol.
10 of us played an ancient cton last night on fantasy map and there was only ONE iron and ONE bronze on the entire map. It was a battle of archers, warriors, and horse-units (chariots, etc).
There wasn't even a kill in the game (although someone left out of frustration - and reported to all).
Techs? well, since musketmen don't require metal of any kind, most had those for defense.
It was a FLAT-OUT FUN-FILLED game of PURE strategy with VERY close scoring.
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Post by Magzi on Apr 17, 2006 18:06:35 GMT -5
I don't think there's any problem with the French ladder and us...I play some games in it! They've always been very nice to me and I do wonder sometimes what I've really said in my bad French!
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Apr 17, 2006 18:54:28 GMT -5
No offense, but the king of the Gandhi-chop finding the chop-nerfing patch to his dislike is as far from shocking to me as you can possibly get. If the best complaint you've got is "Now it matters what land you have at the start, nothing more" then I'd say the problem is solved and life is balanced. People complained about that in C3C for years and had far more disparate starts than we see in CIV.
No start is ever going to be perfectly balanced, but ridiculous chop-spam being the one right strategy at least will no longer be the case. You'll have to build your attack force or your settler spam the old fashioned way now, not "give it to me now" by hacking down all your forests in the first twenty turns.
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Post by Avogadro on Apr 17, 2006 19:48:43 GMT -5
We sure do have good friends over at www.civfr.com They offer french people everywhere a place for strategy and friendship. I am also a member and am glad to see our french cousins come full force CCC weekends! ;D
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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 17, 2006 21:29:35 GMT -5
Yes I've been inviting many of them over the past few days, and more to follow I imagine.
CS
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Post by Onan on Apr 18, 2006 2:08:16 GMT -5
I haven't had any luck making the patch work. I enter the lobby, get the required patch message, and download. When it's finished, I hit okay, and the game shuts down. I relaunch and reenter the lobby, and I get the required patch message, and download.......
This continues in spite of uninstalling and reinstalling the game. What gives? It sounds like the same bug Alice mentioned I think in the first page of this thread.
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Post by Magzi on Apr 18, 2006 3:39:20 GMT -5
I had that same problem initially Onan. Then I discovered I had two copies of the game on my PC and deleting the copy of civ 4 made it all work ok for me. May not be relevant in your case but thought I'd mention it just incase you are as daft as me!
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 18, 2006 3:51:33 GMT -5
To everyone who misunderstood my post: train your reading comprehension skills. Ok? Thanks In short, Sidhe said that french ladder has a lot of beautiful mods and it's just a paradize here on Earth. And we evil c4players ladder players purposefully chosen not to use these mods. I replied that actually we're not aware of that, we can't read their sites etc. because we don't know french (or at least most of us). And so it's actually not our choice, but their (french player's) choice not to bring their mods to us.
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Post by venceslas on Apr 18, 2006 8:15:04 GMT -5
French community has very few mod, and very few modders. We have just the chance to have one or two multiplayers who are also modders. And concerning your sentence, "but their (french player's) choice not to bring their mods to us", we do not choose anything I think the main explanation is that both community has few links outside the CCC. More and more french players play also in the US ladder, but we are rather bad in foreign languages. I'm quite convinced that people do not speak about that because they think it's not interresting. chris.
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Post by tommynt on Apr 18, 2006 8:37:54 GMT -5
Friedrich psi stats:
another poor respond - u just dont want to see the problems in your game design in civ3 u could build a archer and a spear just like so and both were kinda strong units at least for defence, a cow was a nice to have but not a have or die. but now bronze got really to a have or die - at least with somewhat close starts - not every1 thinks 1-1 on small ring maps are fun. And i dont really see where the fun of a even more slowed down start in ancient is. atm it s a race to math and hope for bronze as there s just nothing to do without one of those 2. Oh well in my last teamer i tried to aplie to patch and just worked all my lucky floodplains i had with cottages. so we were 1. at math and turned with our much bigger speed in buildup a 3 vs 4. but there was kinda noth9ing my teammate without mettal could do gainst the 6 horses coming to him.
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Post by Avogadro on Apr 18, 2006 9:39:42 GMT -5
Onan states Psst. Have to remove XP pack for this patch to work
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 18, 2006 11:28:39 GMT -5
another poor respond - u just dont want to see the problems in your game design By the way, do you have any ideas how to fix it? We can try to make a mod.
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Post by Onan on Apr 18, 2006 11:32:11 GMT -5
Magzi, thanks...I think I do have an old clone or two kicking around on my system...though of course they have slightly different names/folders...but just cause I don't understand the problem doesn't mean that isn't it! Avo, XP Pack? If you're talking about Warlords, I haven't downloaded anything to do with that. If you're talking about something else, please clarify.
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