Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Jul 5, 2006 5:29:28 GMT -5
Sorry Tommy but if you really knew what you're talking about, you would never say that.
In modern you have to research techs for nukes or modern units, so you can't buy anything you want, you expand very much slowly.
In modern you have no bombers or fighters to watch around and see threatens a long time before they arrive. So the way to defend yourself is completely different
In future, drafting is an option in some cases. In modern, it brings you loosy units (infantries) so you will never use it.
In future, you can rush the spaceship, and some teams does it very well. In modern you can't.
I could say many other things like that, but I think these ones are enough. IMO modern is a poor era, but I accept to play that if others like it (but not on Pangea, pease), but you can't compare future to modern. They are 2 different eras with their own specificities.
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Post by charliebrownparker on Jul 5, 2006 5:45:31 GMT -5
Dear SPM, I'm sure you are always trying to do your best to organize CCC schelude. there's some good improvements (More events, less players per events) but there's some major problems with your last schedule. Indus start event is a real no sence. Look at the map, City elim, Barb etc etc.... Pick will be 2 russians and Liz. No sea battle, only Cossack rush for the one who will have horses quick. Same comments on 3vs3 ancient ring so boring. Modern start sucks too. Friday events will also be unplayable for Euros. Event 1 start at 9:00 PM, Event 2 Midnight, Event 3 1:30 AM, Event 4 5:00 AM et Event 5 7:00 AM. Too much events on friday to saturday night for euros in my oppinion. Please have a look on Tommynt schedule and try to have a mix between his schedule and yours. Tommynt has many good ideas 10 days remain until CCC start. We have enough time to work on a better schedule. Ps: @ Tommynt : I agree your point of view on Random start number city elim. A single city elim is not enough for Ren, Indus, Modern or Futur start. But in case we switch for 2 cities elim i guess games will be very boring on ancient classical and medie start without any possibilities to kill an opponent before 80 turns. In my oppinion event TD would have to establish (with a random choice) era start before each games and modify elim and timer parameters before players launch game. It will allow fun and balanced games.
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Post by tommynt on Jul 5, 2006 6:06:30 GMT -5
What do u French clans think about my suggestion?
where does it need improvement?
btw my impression about Future and modern being kinda same just come from how I play it - I played it really same way - rush buy every 2nd turn sneaky attack landing improve land as fast as possible ... I did very well playing like that ..
oh well no1 like modern anyway so why discuss it
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Post by eiffel on Jul 5, 2006 6:22:49 GMT -5
I like modern ;D
About QC, the CCCs in civ3 helped to discover new scenarios seldom played in ladder. I'm quite sure QC would be nice to try even if it's hard to use mods with civ4. We can start with an OCC this time since it's somehow played in the ladder and switch to other mods like QC in the next CCCs.
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romazi
Settler
metabaron
Posts: 18
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Post by romazi on Jul 5, 2006 6:28:43 GMT -5
- indus on teambattleground with 1 city elim and no city razing - medieval with no city razing - modern on balanced with no city razing - 3v3 ancien on ring IMO, people who makes that settings simply doesn't know civilization IV...
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Post by charliebrownparker on Jul 5, 2006 6:29:29 GMT -5
What do u French clans think about my suggestion? I'm not really representative of french clans but i will give you my feeling on your schedule Event 1 ok Event 2 why not but not ancient start (too much ancient start on your schedule). I'm not used with OCC but i heard it was a good teamer. Could we try it on Indus start?? 2vs2 OCC Indus would be the way to introduce indus start. Event 3 ok (except Modern switch) Event 4 Ok for classical, map and civ choise. IMO Oracle and Stonehenge wonders has to be forbidden. Event 5 No comment. I understood ironmen and women really appreciated this map on last CCC Event 6 Why not. Not so excisted by it Event 7 4vs4 ancient is ok. TBG has to be tested. Event 8 Ok. I prefer ring as you know ;D but Inland is fun too. Event 9 Great Event 10 ok Event 11 ok except 2 city elim. Have a look on my last thread. Event 12 no need. 11 events is enough.
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Post by tommynt on Jul 5, 2006 6:52:56 GMT -5
in 150 turn occ u ll usually end up in indu era or close to it - but later era start might work aswell (but I th8nk something like clas or medi more interesting as indu)
still anc is best imo as there s a great balance between wonders and units
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Post by charliebrownparker on Jul 5, 2006 7:16:46 GMT -5
So 90 or 80 turns indus should be good. Tech price is so big on indus start that players will reach Middle Modern technologies at best. So this event will mix up Indus and Modern ;D
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Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Jul 5, 2006 7:20:37 GMT -5
My feelings about tommy's planning. As Charlie, I speak for myself and not for my clan or for the french community 1. OK 2. OK but 2-citiy elim + no city razing is too much IMO, 2-city elim alone is a good idea. 3. OK 4. OK 5. OK 6. OK 7. OK 8. I prefer Ring with russians allowed, but many seem to likt it this way, so OK too. No barbs in this event is great ;D 9. No city razing may be a good idea, but not with a so big map. The event would became a score-only event like 3v3 anc ring. I'd rather switch to tiny. 10. I dislike Titled Axis, but it is a good idea to try new maps. And I think there is enough Ancient in this schedule. What about an indus here ? Maybe TBG LvR ? Or Custom Continents ? 11. OK, I'm not gonna argue another time about Shuffle map 12. No, 11 are engouh IMO. I would make minor changes on Tomm'y suggestion, but I fnd it pretty good like it is now. And for sure, very very much better than SPM's one. Tommy has probably tried most of the events he suggests before posting it here... that makes a strong difference.
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Post by matth on Jul 5, 2006 7:37:06 GMT -5
Hello all I'm ok with most of your schedulle Tommynt. Maybe a bit too much ancient but thats sound good anyway. About the QC i think we should try to have an OCC game before we make a QC game in CCC. Noone play it. Maybe later, but for now the OCC is a lot more interesting and wanted by player. And about the era on OCC. The problem in ancient and classical is there is 1 or 2 wonder which is very very important. Then the one who will get it will win. In indus start the game keep open for a long time, its not only a wonder race. But i love OCC and I (or someone else of my team) will be happy to play it regardless of the era. About the boycott CCC topic on french forum i think its simply a post to say to all that we are very disapointed by the schedulle of this CCC. But i dont think a Clan really think about not taking part at all in this CCC. But we will be very happy to see some change and Tommy schedulle looks like a good one even if its not perfect (maybe too much ancient ?). I think that the one who makes the setting of the game in CCC should always keep one things in mind : - A game is interesting when there is more than one way to win. I mean that we see a lot of event totally predictable : Indus start on TBG, its gonna be a land figth from the first turn until the end (10 turns later IMO), a butcher figth. So pick english and russian and send all your unit to your opponent and cut a forest to make a new unit as soon as possible, in 3 turn you may have 3 cossacks on your city... 3vs3 Ring ancient ? No other choice than making a 10 settler start... This event is the most boring ever... And once again no other choice (or this is really risky) than making points, points, points. So making city and farm everywhere
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moineau
Warrior
Administrator
Posts: 330
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Post by moineau on Jul 5, 2006 7:43:34 GMT -5
For tommynt: Event 1 ok Event 2 why not Event 3 ok Event 4 Ok but maybe one city elim for no sim city game Event 5 Event 6 ok Event 7 nice Event 8 very nice, on ring maybe. Event 9 3vs3 can be better maybe Event 10 ok Event 11 not this damn suffle please Event 12 : 11 events it is ok This a already a real better planning..
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Post by Ellestar on Jul 5, 2006 8:18:52 GMT -5
change to clas as allways - also random civs decided last ccc - no fun Actually, random maps decided the game in all rounds. TBG map may seriously lack resources. IMHO it's better to use something like Balanced_OCCV1 map for such a resource-dependant setting as 2v2 Classical on an extremely small map. Friday Scenario - July 14th at 5 pm OCC 2vs2 using Eiffels balanced occ map Timer: fast (blazing maybe - should be tested) In OCC land decides the game because you have only one city. So, plains+a crappy food resource like cow in capital vs grass or especially floodplains makes a huge research difference. Because of that, bigger OCC teamers are more balanced than a smaller ones. Maybe at least 3v3? Timer of course should be blazing. We played all CCC on Blazing and it may as well be even faster. Players: 3v3 Limit: 100 turns Timer: medium Map: small tilted axe normal sealevel Era: Ancient Titled Axis creates crazy starts when someone may be near 3 enemies in 5v5 (so you get insane choking). But we used it in Ren 5v5-6v6 so maybe 3v3 Anc will be ok, i don't know.
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Post by Gogf on Jul 5, 2006 9:10:18 GMT -5
In my opinion, the CCC should represent the games that the players want to play. As a competition between clans, it makes sense for a majority of the events to be commonly played in ladder games. While the CCC is a good place to experiment with new eras or mods, we should do so rather sparingly; one new genre per CCC is enough.
From what I hear, the CCCAC seems to have been totally ignored. While I respect the admins' rights to run the ladder as they please, some of the settings are absolutely ridiculous. I have never seen a 3v3 played on a standard map, and when we have played a very good gametype in the past for that event, I don't see why we need to change it. The 5v5 renaissance game was a very popular change, and the only complaint most had was the use of a medium timer instead of fast.
I thought the point of the CCCAC was to allow the admins to find out what games people wanted to play. While that may be true, that's not helpful if the admins don't listen to it :/.
I understand that it's very hard to organize a CCC with events that please everyone, but does anybody really want to play a 2v2 medieval inland sea? What about a 3v3 industrial tbg with Russia and England allowed?
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Post by tommynt on Jul 5, 2006 9:45:23 GMT -5
SPM did not ignore cccac - cton and scenario event were suggested - he implemented em - but i think he missunderstod some other things
about changes of my proposed scedule - i never tried occ in diff start eras as ancient - didnt know that u guys think that it s fun for other eras - es u should know that eiffels map creates good land for all - so occ should not be decided by land.
about the switches of city elm proposed by some of u others - i gotta say for some events i didnt think wheter 1 or 2 is better - if SPM goes with most parts of my scedule the city elm thing gotta be checked for all events
and gogf yes there are players who wanted medival - btw i think my tbf with east vs west setting might have been good idea for it - played it once - it was a huge teching buildfest with surpriselanding option
and indu is best era for a seamap as islands which was wanted aswell by some of cccac
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Post by GERMANIA on Jul 5, 2006 10:16:07 GMT -5
Hey SPM, well to be honestly that CCC wont be a good one ! Why ? well because there is no real anc teamer, no really good rene teamer and maybe i am saying it again but non are playing QC, modern ore future accept Krill And a cton....in a CCC Well i would prefer to see a CCC witch all enjoy and that the most of our player plays these days. I haven't seen any those teamers for ages.. If this stay so i will for sure not take part, and i believe that allot will decided that too and enjoy the somer Well germania, your own clan rep took part in the discussions on some of these events, perhaps he didn't represent you well enough, I have no idea. But IMHO, the CCC is not just about playing what is currently the favourite ladder match, but about getting the ladder to play new ideas. I'm sorry if that displeases you, but a healthy ladder plays more than ancients ctons and ren teamers. And the cton event was a specifially asked for event by the CCCAC btw. CS Well CS, I am for sure one of the most active players, that doesn't mean i only play rene ore Anc even if i enjoy those most, but i know what is most getting played and i know and see by the reaction that less agree with the CCC events, And about my represent, well he has only a very small part to say if you look at how many clans there is, and how many clans there are who have no idea about this game, maybe MUD should split in 5 clans and then always ally, maybe we would get then some good events... To be honestly i only want that we all have a Good CCC and i am sure that with this event we wont have one.. Tommy gave some good ideas
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Post by Gogf on Jul 5, 2006 10:18:37 GMT -5
SPM did not ignore cccac - cton and scenario event were suggested - he implemented em - but i think he missunderstod some other things Okay, I might have been misunderstanding, then. Indeed, Eiffel's map would be excellent for an OCC game. Yup, I was one of the people who wanted medieval. These settings aren't very good though, IMO... I completely agree.
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Post by longhorn on Jul 5, 2006 11:09:17 GMT -5
Wow- what harsh criticism and mostly unwarranted. First, to the administrators- whos hard (AND UNPAID) work is so often taken for granted, thanks for once again giving us a CCC-- for implementing those suggestions about publishing schedules in advance, for creating and implementing an ADVISORY committee to give a voice to the clans and players, and for putting up with the disregard and disrespect shown only too often.
The events aren't that bad as is, although there is always room for improvement. I, for one, am happy that we will actually get a chance to use strategy and balance building and teching with out and out war. If you look at victory conditions in CIV, conquest is only one of several! Does our community actually think even for a moment that we can all come to some magical consensus so everybody from every clan in every time zone can be happy? Do you have the same experiences as me in staging.. where players want to argue everything from map to era to climate to sea level each and every game until we have spent more time in staging then in game playing? Isn't anyone else absolutely sick to death of inland sea renaissance teamers, or ancient team battleground? IS anyone else tired of hearing the crying from players if you do not start less than 4 spaces away from your opponent? How many of you have actually played these events on the given settings before calling them stupid or insulting the administrators for not knowing CIV?
Look, perhaps with exception of the OCC map designed by eiffel, every single last map is unbalanced. Everything is unbalanced. Egypt starting with horses in that teamer when you don't even have copper or iron. Ghandi starting with stone and marble. Random civs in that renaissance game when your opponent gets Catherine, Elizabeth, and Saladin while you get Frederick, Egypt, and Mao. OR any teamer you play with me on your team and I am on the front line!
Whats the point of this post.. well simply STOP whining, stop throwing temper tantrums, stop blaming the administartors, and start practicing the events. DO make constructive criticisms, do make sure that your representative on the advisory committee clearly express the views of your entire clan.
I am sorry to see the 5v5 go, I wish they would have implemented my suggestions for the CTON event, I like modern and not future, and I am extremely sympathetic to the problems of scheduling across continents, time zones and datelines... But I am not boycotting or threating walkouts or slamming the administrators because I didn't get what I wanted. And as a player I will adapt and compete with whatever the settings and maps and rules are.
note: edit for grammar/spelling made
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Post by charliebrownparker on Jul 5, 2006 11:30:46 GMT -5
Longhorn,
I can assure you that we are practicing all eras since more than 8 months. I guess it's enough to give our point of view on map size and type because we all know what is fun and what is not. When you spend a whole week end playing civ4 you must have some fun.
I agree CCC has to introduce new events and mods but please have a look on first SPM schedule. There some good thinks but there's also some events completly crazy!!!! We have to find some solution and improve this program.
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Post by SirPartyMan on Jul 5, 2006 11:55:17 GMT -5
Why not? The CCC Advisory Council had a poll on this topic and the majority ruled this way due to connection difficulties and lag. I'm aware that 5v5 Renn games are popular which is why I included it last time. This is just one of several controversial issues which had to be resolved. I was guided by a definitive poll taken by the committee. SPM
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Post by SirPartyMan on Jul 5, 2006 12:20:17 GMT -5
Dear Friends:
First, I'd like to say I do my best with the CCC. I listen to input from all sides. Unfortunately, there is no consensus. Some want mostly ancient and ren era, others want all eras represented. Some want a variety of maps and sizes, etc. Ask 10 people to design the ccc schedule & events and you'll get 11 different plans.
Second, we set up a committee who contributed a lot of ideas, but there was hardly unanimity. Dozens of choices remained. It was time to post the rules & schedule. I made my best effort to implement all consensus changes. Everyone of 4 polls were implemented totally. But no one got everything they wanted.
Third, I made a few mistakes on map sizes, etc. which I am correcting:
Event 3 - Substitutions No
Event 5 - new map Islands
Event 7 - mapsize small
Event 8 - mapsize small - no city razing checked
Event 9 - 3v3 instead of 2v2
Event 10 - change map to Tilted Axis
We will follow this same process of gathering input and evaluating changes for next time.
Best, SPM
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