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Post by knupp on Jul 4, 2006 19:00:25 GMT -5
I think it would be best to post a "proposed" event schedule 3 weeks before the actual CCC. Then everybody can get their say in on what they would like to see and what they don't like. Then the events can be changed depending on popular feed back. Also, why is there a modern and future era start? We've only just started playing future and the only person that is really good at it is Krill. I don't see the point in adding two games that are both very similar. Variety and new ideas in the CCC is great. However we have 11 events. Those events should include the games that are most often played and the new ideas. Not just all new ideas, that will drive people away from the CCC. I agree with Mookie, looks like a lot of the events will be build-fests.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jul 4, 2006 19:28:45 GMT -5
I have not seen any discussion in this council. I have seen everyone bringing is own ideas without any kind of organisation. It was your job as admins to make this a true debate. You didn't and now you pick the ideas you prefer in the big amount of ideas posted in the forum, and make a program with it. And you don't have to assume your decisions because you were "inspired" by posts from the coucil's forum I was happy when this council was created since I thought it would be a great progress, and would make CCC a "democratic" competition. I know understand that it was only a way to make it more despotic than ever, and I am very disppointed to have taken part in that. That's why I am so unsatisfied CS. Well I appoligize for the misunderstanding of the role of the CCCAC, if I ran it then people would accuse the admins of not letting the members have there say, so I let the members discuss what they wanted to see, and now you accuss me of not providing enough leadership, well I may be partly to blame, but so does ever member of the CCCAC, it's hardly my fault that there was not a 100% agreement on any one issue within the clan reps. I guess next time I'll use binding polls to let SPM know for sure what the majority of the CCCAC wants. We all live and learn CS
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jul 4, 2006 19:35:18 GMT -5
On another note if so many people are displeased then perhaps they should tell there clan reps in alot of detail what they want, we can't please everyone, but atleast if there's a more indepth CCCAC discussion we can then get a conclusive solution that 50% +1 of the CCCAC has agreed too.
CS
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Post by Elledge on Jul 4, 2006 20:22:05 GMT -5
Variety and new ideas in the CCC is great. However we have 11 events. Those events should include the games that are most often played and the new ideas. Not just all new ideas, that will drive people away from the CCC. On the heels of this suggestion I'd like to propose my event schedule for the July Civ4 ECC (Elledge Championship Cup.) It's something like this: 5v5 Renaissance Inland Sea (huge map) 3v3 Future Ice Age (duel map) 5v5 Renaissance Inland Sea (huge map) Ancient Always Peace Pangaea CTON (tech trading on) 5v5 Renaissance Inland Sea (huge map) Ironman Earth 18 civs no china or england (raging barbs) ffa pangaea nott quick/blazing!~ 1v1 with GameTheory Custom continents, 1 per continent 2v2 OCC Modern Archipelago (huge map) Match times will follow. I hope we can all agree that this is a good mix of games that are always played and some awesome new ideas.
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moineau
Warrior
Administrator
Posts: 330
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Post by moineau on Jul 4, 2006 20:35:30 GMT -5
It is a good idea to do new event, but as say MookieNJ, lots of events have many problems, i am aggry with all he noticed (for the renaissance, 3vs3 is funnier, but on SMALL map, standart si too huge).
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jul 4, 2006 20:44:42 GMT -5
Well I'm sure SPM can fix the small issues as he always has in the past.
CS
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Post by Tony on Jul 4, 2006 21:30:46 GMT -5
Im personally glad the CCC has QC, its something new and all players must practice it, everyone is in the same boat.
As i said in another thread it will force people to play the mod and maybe spark some interest. 1 "new event" per CCC is healthy. Next time it may be UUMadness or OCC etc. There are still 10 other events!
Its healthy for the ladder in general as, people always crying about we need more variety, and this is how its done IMO.
EDIT :: On a side note the scedule is a nightmare for euro players, almost impossible. Lets see:
1 players for 1v1 - 9pm 3 for future - 12am 1 for cton - 1:30am 3 for QC - 5am 3 for ancient - 7 am
11 players needed for such crazy times. If a Euro team wins it, its gonna take loads of determination, maybe a little too much determination.
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Post by eiffel on Jul 4, 2006 21:37:41 GMT -5
Many changes must be made or i'm quite sure some of the clans won't bother playing it or will make a CCC of their own that they will love playing in. Btw, ladder players comittee should propose a CCC and admin comittee should validate it or fix it if needed. Great to be a Head Admin and to set events with left hand ... but better let players, who play civ4 and know what settings are good, decide what they want to play ;D No offense, but it seems so logical (to me)...
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Post by MookieNJ on Jul 4, 2006 21:56:03 GMT -5
On another note if so many people are displeased then perhaps they should tell there clan reps in alot of detail what they want, we can't please everyone, but atleast if there's a more indepth CCCAC discussion we can then get a conclusive solution that 50% +1 of the CCCAC has agreed too. I can't speak for everyone involved, but I believe I was one of the more active posters over at the CCCAC. My clan has pretty strong feelings about many of the events and I did my best to represent them. I proposed this event lineup and I believe it was optimal for everyone. It represents just about every era and every map. It was posted in the CCCAC forums as well as the general boards: As it turned out, the CCC has turned out absolutely nothing like I hoped it could. My 3 favorite events are pretty much ruined -- 3v3 Ren Inland Sea Standard -- this is the map size we use for 5v5 and 6v6. 3v3 will be 100% awful, I'll pass. 2v2 Medieval Inland Sea Small -- Inland Sea doesn't work well for 2v2, so this is just plain dumb. Small Inland Sea for 2v2 is way too much land. I don't want to play with these horrible settings. 3v3 Industrial TBG Small -- is this top vs. bottom or left vs. right? TvB means no naval attacks, and LvR means no ground attacks. Either way half of the Industrial arsenal is out of play, so I'll have to skip this one as well. As I previously mentioned, I think the settings for a few other events are very wrong: 3v3 Modern -- no city razing just doesn't work the way it should when you need to eliminate 2 cities. 3v3 Ancient -- Ring is just about the worst map you can choose for Ancient ... I guess Islands and Archipelago would be worse though. In conclusion, I'm sorry if my comments are harsh, but I feel very strongly about them. With 5 out of 11 events "broken," I am no longer looking forward to this CCC nearly as much as I was before the event lineup was announced. I'm sorry, but I can't believe that most of these events were even tested, the problems would have been obvious 10 to 20 turns into the game.
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Post by deyreepher on Jul 4, 2006 22:02:05 GMT -5
Ok, so you don't want any blame fired towards the admins. I can understand that, you have admin duties to tend to. The CCCAC obviously feels ignored.
The games played on a regular basis have been butchered for this CCC.
You have a Head TD who is actively trying to get regular tournaments up to reflect what will be played in the CCC.
Well, 1+1=2?
I say you hand over the CCC duties to Levi as he is the Head TD. Give him his moment to shine and let him do what he has signed up for. I believe that doing this, plus combining a league play-off system (which Levi could easily convert his plans towards) would be a great way to reform this whole CCC mess.
New game flavor events usually occur right before the CCC and are not reflected until the next CCC, ie....Modern.
A league play-off system encourages clans, which encourages more competition if the tournaments are on a weekly basis, instead of every six weeks. The game eras/settings in vogue can easily be converted towards points counts for an actual CCC. Clans would not have to be 15+ members to ensure that all events are filled over a three day period and in general, the headaches and complaining would stop.
I have still yet to understand why such a system has not been implemented. You've finally reached the breaking point.
Forcing players to play what they don't want to just doesn't work. That just takes the fun out the whole event. If you want to make th is an issue between players and admins, the players will always win , every time. With no players, there is no ladder.
Case in point is the World Cup. They don't play all their matches in a week, (they probably could).
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Post by MookieNJ on Jul 4, 2006 23:27:51 GMT -5
But IMHO, the CCC is not just about playing what is currently the favourite ladder match, but about getting the ladder to play new ideas. I'm sorry if that displeases you, but a healthy ladder plays more than ancients ctons and ren teamers. Of course introducing new ideas to the CCC is a great idea. However, doing so at the expense of the most popular ladder games is not the way to do it. With 11 events this time around, there should have been room for both the old favorites and a few new ideas ... With so many new and different game types, it becomes a CCC of who can practice the most in the next 10 days rather than who is truly the best team.
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Post by deyreepher on Jul 4, 2006 23:28:43 GMT -5
I vote scrap.
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Post by MookieNJ on Jul 4, 2006 23:52:41 GMT -5
From the main ladder page:
Didn't MDR win the Civ4 CCC 2 CCCs ago?
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jul 5, 2006 0:05:07 GMT -5
Ok, so you don't want any blame fired towards the admins. I can understand that, you have admin duties to tend to. The CCCAC obviously feels ignored. The games played on a regular basis have been butchered for this CCC. You have a Head TD who is actively trying to get regular tournaments up to reflect what will be played in the CCC. Well, 1+1=2? I say you hand over the CCC duties to Levi as he is the Head TD. Give him his moment to shine and let him do what he has signed up for. I believe that doing this, plus combining a league play-off system (which Levi could easily convert his plans towards) would be a great way to reform this whole CCC mess. New game flavor events usually occur right before the CCC and are not reflected until the next CCC, ie....Modern. A league play-off system encourages clans, which encourages more competition if the tournaments are on a weekly basis, instead of every six weeks. The game eras/settings in vogue can easily be converted towards points counts for an actual CCC. Clans would not have to be 15+ members to ensure that all events are filled over a three day period and in general, the headaches and complaining would stop. I have still yet to understand why such a system has not been implemented. You've finally reached the breaking point. Forcing players to play what they don't want to just doesn't work. That just takes the fun out the whole event. If you want to make th is an issue between players and admins, the players will always win , every time. With no players, there is no ladder. Case in point is the World Cup. They don't play all their matches in a week, (they probably could). I have no problem taking the blame for anything, obviously our first iteration of the CCCAC wasn't perfect, I expected the members to find a common ground and present there best solution to the Admin team for consideration, but that didn't happen, although lots of good idea were put forward, just little consensus was reached. To me a open discussion was fine and I expected lots of differing views, apparently some expected a more structured way of doing things, well these things evolve and we all learn. This is no reason to fly of the handle and do anything extreme like boycot the CCC or anything else unconstructive. The admin team is listening still and we want to put out an event that all can enjoy. CS
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jul 5, 2006 0:24:07 GMT -5
And I understand your ideas for a playoff system, but we have tried such a system in the past for C3C, and it was a nightmare to schedule and get clans to show up for a match once a week with all the different time zones and personal lives getting in the way, we could discuss trying some trial idea like this for C4P, but our former experience is why we have keep with a one weekend CCC event, it has been the format that has worked for nearly 3 years now.
CS
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Post by holocanthe on Jul 5, 2006 1:34:33 GMT -5
From the main ladder page: Didn't MDR win the Civ4 CCC 2 CCCs ago? Yes it was MDR And about my question about the schedule, i wait always an answer : WHERE IS LOGIC
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Post by Ellestar on Jul 5, 2006 2:03:26 GMT -5
RIP 5v5 Ren Teamer, replaced by 3v3 Inland Standard ... can you say ENORMOUSLY HUGE MAP FOR 6 PLAYERS? Hello buildfest. Well, it's not that bad. Ren teamers with default settings are quite boring as well, here you may either stop building at some moment and try to kill or try to overpower later. So it isn't that bad. 3v3 Modern with no city razing? We did some tests of this setting prior to last CCC and I'll be the first to say it's pretty boring. You've pretty much got to capture two cities simultaneously because with railroads up it's pretty easy for the guy who lost a city to quickly recapture it. Well, no city raizing is a good thing on these settings because it's ridiculously easy to raze one city at a time with a drop. 3v3 Ancient on Ring again? Didn't EVERYONE hate this event in last CCC? Why is it back? Yet another stupid buildfest. SPM likes to be hated ;D So he puts ga y settings in once again. I mean, who in a sane mind will play Anc on Ring? Exactly, noone. Well I appoligize for the misunderstanding of the role of the CCCAC, if I ran it then people would accuse the admins of not letting the members have there say, so I let the members discuss what they wanted to see, and now you accuss me of not providing enough leadership, well I may be partly to blame, but so does ever member of the CCCAC, it's hardly my fault that there was not a 100% agreement on any one issue within the clan reps. I guess next time I'll use binding polls to let SPM know for sure what the majority of the CCCAC wants. We all live and learn CS Maybe someome other admin will make a decisions about CCC? I think there is a consensus here that he makes crazy decisions in every CCC. So IMHO he's not a good admin for this role. Levi or Canucksoldier seem to be more reasonable admins. but better let players, who play civ4 and know what settings are good, decide what they want to play ;D No offense, but it seems so logical (to me)... Condisdering that admins don't actually seem to play what they put in CCC, i think it's about right. 3v3 Modern -- no city razing just doesn't work the way it should when you need to eliminate 2 cities. It works just fine. In a previous CCC we won 2 games VERY FAST by raizing with the same settings (others didn't finish even one game), and in a final my teammate should have killed enemy at least 2 times (unfortunately, he didn't have any experience playing Modern so he failed). In Future "no city raizing" should be off because it's easy enough to win by a space victory even if some allies are eliminated, but in Modern on water maps "no city raizing" is fine.
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Post by ..A..kazache on Jul 5, 2006 2:44:50 GMT -5
Hi, i just looked in the french forum, there is a tendence to boycott the ccc with this settings. These would not help anybody. We never get an event which can statisfy everybodies wishes, but there are too many worst settings, that we can play the next ccc as scheduled.
I suggest to the admins to sleep a night and then reflecting how we can put together a good ccc event.
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Post by tommynt on Jul 5, 2006 3:31:41 GMT -5
I think I represented MUD very well and proposed a scedule which d have been ok for EVERYBODY posting in this thread
the only realy no consence poll was wether 5-5 or 3-3 for ren - i voted for tutus as it really worked last ccc - but there just might come up problems aswell
but there wasnt a single 1 proposing or doubting to get rid of the 4-4 anc on tbf on saturday now there pop up a absulutly nonplayed indu 3-3
just because there s a minority of 10% who likes late eras more then early eras we should not try to press in all eras - for real modern and future is like the same - and indu and ren got same strategies with lil different units (still rus and england dominate the battlefield)
so I ll try to propose again a scedule which i feel that it s ok for every1
btw imo SPMs overall scedule isnt as made as many write in here i ll leave many events untouched
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Event #1 -- Friday, July 14 at 3:00 pm EDT The Classic Singles Clan Tourney
Players: 1v1 Limit: 120 turns Timer: fast Map: Mirror duel , small lakes landmass, low sealevel reflection type Civ Choice: Yes Elim: 1-city ON Era: Ancient No City Razing: Checked Substitutions: no No Barbs: Checked
changes - non .........................................................................................
Event #2
Friday Scenario - July 14th at 5 pm OCC 2vs2 using Eiffels balanced occ map
Limit: 150 turns Timer: fast (blazing maybe - should be tested) Map: Balanced on tiny Civ choice: yes Elim: 1 city No City Razing: checked Substitutions: Yes
changes - OCC is 100 times more popular as QC or any other scen also there should be more tests about stability for UU and QC (we had for example weired start lands) in ladder games before making a unknown in outcome approach in ccc This time is playable for Europes and I think for most US aswell if not playable for US i m not sure on which time maybe 7 pm
Event #2 Friday, July 14th at 6:00 pm EDT Friday Future Start (SWITCH TO MODERN NEXT CCC AND BACK TO FUTURE THEN)
Players: 3v3 Limit: 80 turns Timer: medium Map: Hub on small. Era: Future - space victory is allowed. Civ choice: yes Elim: 2 city No City Razing: Unchecked Substitutions: Yes No Barbs: Checked
changes - non ........................................................
Event #4 Saturday, July 15th at 1:00 am EDT 2vs2 Grudge Match
Players: 2vs2 Limit: 100 turns Timer: fast Map: Team Battleground small Era: classical Civ choice: yes Elim: 2 city elim No City razing: Checked Barbs: Normal On Substitutions: Yes
change to clas as allways - also random civs decided last ccc - no fun ..........................................................
Event #5 - IronMan - Saturday, July 15th at 8:00 am EDT. NOTE: All teams must register for this event by 7:45 am EDT. There will be no prequalifier round as in the past. This final round will be truly epic style 24/7 until end of game or until a Final Victory condition is reached (subs allowed). The Ironman is to be played according to semi-"Cton" rules. Players pick civs. Teams may only make substitutions a maximum of 5 times in this event, other players should keep count.
Limit: End of Game or Final Victory Condition (Space, Cultural, Conquest, Domination, Time only) Timer: blazing Era: Ancient Map: Ring standard size , Sea level normal Civ Choice: yes No City Razing: unchecked No Barbs: checked Elim: none Substitutions: Allowed throughout. Players can agree to take 15 minute breaks every 4 hours. If someone must leave the match (or drops), 15 minutes will be allowed for them or their substitution to appear, or that team is disqualified from the remainder of the event. Five substitutions per team maximum.
change - non
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Event #6
CTON July 15th at 14:00 am - RANDOM Civs - each clan enters 1 player - 1 round.
Limit: 130 turns Timer: blazing Map: Inland Sea regular Civ choice: no Elim: 2 city No City Razing: Unchecked Substitutions: No
change - no subs in a cton
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Event #7 Saturday, July 15th, 2006, 10:00am EDT The BIGGAME
Players: 4vs4 Limit: 115 turns Timer: fast Era: Ancient Map: TBF, Standard Civ Choice: yes No City Raising: unChecked No Barbs: Checked Elim: 2-city ON Substitutions: Yes
change - dont tough the 1 ( beside the 1-1) classical event ccc got - it was fun in civ3 and is still most played setting (together with ren inland sea)
........................................... Event #8: Saturday, July 15th 3rd, 1:00 pm EDT
Saturday Renaissance Era Start:
Players: 3v3 Limit: 90 turns Timer: fast Map: Inland Sea - small sealevel normal Era: Renaissance Civ Choice: yes - but Russia excluded Elim: 2 city No City Razing: unchecked Barbs: None Substitutions: Yes
changes - poll was 4 vs 3 for 3-3 size so leave it - map should be small and I feel that ring d create more fair lands /starts but inland sea k aswell ...................................................
Event #9
Sunday, July 15th, 2006 starting 9:00 AM EDT The Sunday Medieval Clan Tourney
Only the TOP 8 Teams in Points after the first 6 events can compete in this event. NOTE: If there is a tie for 8th place - here are the tiebreaker rules: (a) preference will be given to the team with the most 1st places in the event, (b) if still a tie, preference will be given to the team with the most 2nd place finishes in this CCC, and (c) if there is still a tie, it will be determined by the order of finish in CC XXXI (Last CIV IV CCC), and (d) if there is still a tie, there will be a random draw conducted by one of the Ladder Admins whose team is not directly involved. The Sunday events will be a maximum of three rounds only.
Players: 2vs2 Limit: 110 turns Timer: fast Map: Inland Sea small (maybe another map) Era: Medieval Civ Choice: yes Elim: 2-city ON No City Razing: Checked No Barbs: Checked Substitutions: Yes
change non - maybe map .............................................................................
Event #10 - Sunday, July 16th, 2006 10:00am EDT
Sunday Ancient Start - only the TOP 8 clans can compete in this event (same tiebreaker rules as Event #7).
Players: 3v3 Limit: 100 turns Timer: medium Map: small tilted axe normal sealevel Era: Ancient Civ Choice: yes No City Razing: unchecked No Barbs: checked Elim: 2 city ON Substitutions: Yes
change to tilted axe - maybe suggestions for othe maps (wheel?) ................................................................................ Event #11 - Sunday, July 16th, 2006 - 11:00 am EDT
Classic RANDOM/RANDOM ERA & CIV 2v2 on a battleground map. Only the TOP 8 Teams in Points after the first 8 events can compete in this event (see tie breaker rules above).
Limit: 90 turns Timer: medium Map: Shuffle (ie. RANDOM). Civ Choice: RANDOM Era: RANDOM No City Razing: unChecked No Barbs: Checked Elim: 2-city ON Substitutions: Yes
maybe there should be a poll about this event but i ll let it untouched as several guys like SPM and FP just wanted to have it in - just 2 city elm - the 1 city elm made it a even bigger lottery last ccc (which we won ;D)- but maybe i m wrong and 1 city is better - suggest
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Event # 12
also I wasnt sure if there should be a 4th event on sunday - indu start - maybe make all events 2-2 then so that there s still a basis of 8 player or 9 maybe - leave anc 3-3
Ok maybe have a indu start aswell d be better
so event 12 indu start 12 am
i have no clue on map - I thinik islands (with lot of landings - some players suggested sea dominated map) can be fun for indu (we tried that several times)
so map small islands players 2 vs 2 city elm 1 or 2 razing on - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - -
conclusions about my scedule players: 1 + 2 +3 on friday + 2 (grudge time is more friday then saturday for many and player who does grudge can still do another event on sat) = 8 1+4+1+3 on sat = 9
sat is out main day and we (cccca) wanted more events
2+3+2+2 on sunday = 9 (maybe 4*2 = 8)
a basis of about 8 players per day is what we wanted and a not filing of 1 or 2 events out of 12 dont have to be deciding imo
eras there are all eras but modern - ya sure the 3 guys playing lot of modern ll moan - i suggest to put it into ccc once it gets really popular - but gameplay is really simlar to Future and somehow random give modern allways anyway. i d rather add another ren (=popular event) then modern oh well maybe i m wrong and there should be modern instead anc on sunday maybe poll that?
maps are mirror hub balanced tbf ring inlandsea tbf inlandsea inlandsea (maybe suggestions for medival map - maybe mirror with left vs right setting = lil sea in middle) tilted axe shuffle islands oh well mainly the most played inlandsea/tbf but some map for every1
changes to SPM s scedule: more then half of events are untcoched I tried to make only minor changes based on cccac, other suggestion threads and my experience in teamers also I think we should keep the classical structure SPM introduced - ccc was allways kinda succesful (in comparision to acitve palyers) so no huge changes
long post hope some guys take time to read
maybe we should take this (or SPMs scedule) as basis and discuss every single event in cccac
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Post by venceslas on Jul 5, 2006 4:59:53 GMT -5
"i just looked in the french forum, there is a tendence to boycott the ccc with this settings. These would not help anybody."
Ya, there is one topic on this subject, but I'm quite skeptical that the french clan will boycott the CCC. Anyway we will see.
I cannot speak for MDR or FUN, but LKT will be in this CCC. And I do hope that schedule and event will be improved.
On another point, because one person say "it will be nice to have QC" is not enough to choose this event for the CCC. I think you must take the opinion of the majority into consideration. For example for the QC, by caricaturing, you have one people who say YES, and two hundred people who say NO.
chris.
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