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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 3, 2005 16:43:22 GMT -5
I decided to be like the rest of you and really explore the depth of the game. I decided to try out building at home with culture and defense. I chose Napoleon for his ind+agg since I was up against an aztec it would make defense alot easier while still giving me the edge on economy. So I guess I ummmm...built buildings. And I uhhhh...built alot of wonders. I didn't bother building too many improvements, who needs improvements really? Oh I built the obvious ones like copper and stone, I even decided to throw down a farm here and there with some towns. Lo and behold he decided to rush me with jaguars. So I built a bunch of axemen and that stopped him. But I was really feeling vulnerable so I took the whole two turns to build walls...but that just wasn't enough so I built chichen Itza. Still...I needed more so I built all kinds of culture which added to my score and my defense (you wouldn't believe how hard it was to click on those buildings; one time my computer started to lag and I wasn't sure if I'd make it). Now that I had 85% defense bonus...still not enough. So I thought I'd go ahead and build barracks and get vassalage+Theocracy. So now I have triple upgraded axemen, triple upgraded longbows, but this one was a tricky one! Aparently he read about combined arms and decided to get horse archers! I just had to respond and fast!! So I took 3 turns and built quadruple upgraded spearmen..and thought "Now I need faster building time to make my hard to defend cities more easily defended" so I thought what the hell and built the heroic epic. Now I was cooking, and just to really be sure I started throwing catapults in my cities, you know, just in case he had read these forums about the all powerful catapult siege. Still, this guy had it down because now he decided it was time to choke me! So he went and pillaged all...3 of my improvements but I sent out my quadruple upgraded spears and killed his mounted units and then just rebuilt them. I think he might have cost me 3 gold that turn. After the choke I got really worried that I could get overrun so I went ahead and got gunpowder just to be sure. While all this was going on I was using all my prowess to click on the next wonder and I even took a gamble and used specialists!! I'm not much of an expander, so I only built 5 cities that game. I also don't really like war which is why I like to sit at home and just build...isn't that what civ is all about? My opponent tried to expand and tried to wage war and his entire infrastructure collapsed (silly, don't you know you're not supposed to build cities? If you had sat at home like me and used some real strategy to click on buildings and use 'combined arms stacks' you'd have had a chance lol). I played civilization 2 and 3 but I just wasn't very good at it. It was stupid because you had to expand and attacking was too easy. This game is way better because now you actually have to build infrastructure. People don't realize how hard it is to build multiple unit stacks and to defend their cities properly. Expanding your culture borders has really added to the depth of this game and to the myriad of possible options. This is the way civ was meant to be played and if you don't like it it's because you can't adapt and your strategies don't work anymore so you come here to whine. Long live civ4 and the strategically ingenius combined arms stacks!
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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 3, 2005 16:55:22 GMT -5
I really need to see a game of fried or something so I can see what is possible in this game. So far I haven't seen anyone do anything that I couldn't do myself. I just don't see where the wonder is in this game, I haven't played anyone where I've said "damn, how'd he do that?" I haven't even looked at saves to analyze them to learn. Every game I've lost was because I wasn't willing to accept the form of play that now works or because a guy walked into my capital with a chariot in the first 15 turns of the game. Where is the skill in this game? What is it that separates one player from another? Don't tell me unit stacks are the skill in this game because it is really easy to scout your opponent and try to counter him. It's the same nuts I did in AOC and it was a hell of alot harder in that game than it is in this. I need to see a game where someone builds 10 cities before 1 AD with gunpowder and early rushing. Then I will say, "There is some depth to this game afterall."
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Post by TheGoddess on Nov 3, 2005 17:15:54 GMT -5
Funny that you say this...
I believe this was exactly what I was saying after reading what Fried had written about this game and before it ever hit the stores.
This game is geared to people that are pointwh*res, wonder builders, and people that loved Greece. This game is lacking in several key areas, most of all "fun" inregards to the attacker. Its a defenders dream, only a very unskilled defender seems to be handicapped here.
Now Ill admit that I did not play many Conquests games, did Conquests revolve around "points" inregards to who won games on the ladder? Or did yall actually fight and eliminate an opponent to determine a winner?
All too often I have seen throw back ladder players in PTW, (at a risk of being "targeted") they seem to only want to build cities , spears, and wonders. Im not sure if this is the current way of determining a winner on ladder or not.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 3, 2005 17:30:19 GMT -5
Well I don't have time right now for a detailed reply to EoN, but if I'm in a situation that I'm facing a player with a defence that I can't destroy with my current arsenal, then there's two options to winning the game, out build him or gain the technological advantage and kill him with units he doesn't have the capability of repelling.
If the early game is a military statemate then focusing your empire on science is the best long term military strategy, a quick run to Mil Trad even at the expense of other tech's will get you Cavalry, and if all you face is longbows then Cav with some canons thrown in are a winner.
Also EoN is taking his prepective from only 1v1 games, and while these can be interesting they are only one game played on the ladder, FFA and teamers are much more dynamic than deuls. There is no diplomacy in a 1v1 but diplomacy is a major part of other games, so what is fun for one person is not everyones cup of tea.
CS
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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 3, 2005 17:35:09 GMT -5
lol I just did the math on my fortified musketman. 105% for culture defense bonus. 50% for wall bonus. 10% for initial unit upgrade bonus. 20% for second unit upgrade bonus. 25% for third unit upgrade bonus. 25% for chichen Itzen. 25% for fortification.
My musketman had a strength of 23.4, almost enough to beat a navy seal!! lol All I had to do was kill 1 unit and I'd get the fourth upgrade which would be the third city defense bonus +30% which would then give my musketman a defense bonus of 26.1...strong enough to kill marines and navy seals. Yet you guys say that defense isn't overpowered?
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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 3, 2005 17:37:35 GMT -5
The majority of large games are ctons and if I'm not mistaken there is no diplomacy in those. In addition you now have to deal with the poor resource system in this game. The fact that you are saying 1v1 isn't a viable way of playing pretty much rests my case. Where is Fried? I want to hear what he has to say about this. Maybe there is some big secret I don't know about that lets you expand like a god while you have a huge economy and are rushing? I want to be proven wrong, because if I'm right then this game is a piece of nuts and I don't want it to be a piece of nuts.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 3, 2005 17:39:51 GMT -5
..and all thouse defense bonuses can be eliminated with a few canons, then it's a even battle CS
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 3, 2005 17:44:49 GMT -5
The majority of large games are ctons and if I'm not mistaken there is no diplomacy in those. In addition you now have to deal with the poor resource system in this game. The fact that you are saying 1v1 isn't a viable way of playing pretty much rests my case. Where is Fried? I want to hear what he has to say about this. Maybe there is some big secret I don't know about that lets you expand like a god while you have a huge economy and are rushing? I want to be proven wrong, because if I'm right then this game is a piece of nuts and I don't want it to be a piece of nuts. Actually normal ffa's are making a come back and it's hard to say what will be popular as the ladder grows, personally I like the dynamics of team games in CIV especially, but a good ffa can be very fun too. I think you are looking for something that is not here EoN, good players will rise above poor players in CIV, but you won't see anyone that is unbeatable, so if that's your goal then you may be disappointed. CS
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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 3, 2005 17:46:51 GMT -5
So let me get this straight. You're going to outdo me in tech while I'm doing nothing but building research and defense? Not only that, but you're going to roll up with tanks before the turns run out? And on top of it you're going to have more upgrades than me with the civics I have? Then on top of it you think I'm not going to have cannons too? That was a really poor explanation because even if you rolled up with cavalry you aren't going to win. lol What a joke. You would need Marines WITH upgrades in order to beat me with units. Then you would need lots of cannons while at the same time surviving mine. WHERE IS FRIED???
You know I haven't had to look at one game yet to see how someone beat me? There is just no wonder in this game. The gap between beginner and "good players" is very small. The ability to get a lead in this game has been reduced to nothing. I told you last night, this game is AOM on steroids. It is a dumbed down game geared towards beginning players. Everything about this game screams "BRING IN NEW PLAYERS WE MUST COMPETE WITH AGE OF EMPIRES 3." The thing that they forgot was that since they made this an MP based game is that in order to have a community you have to have different levels. Those people right now who aren't on the ladder playing those big games...they'll be gone in a year. The people who remain are the competitive ladder players and they keep the game alive. Without the ability to get ahead and the ability to compete this game will die.
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Post by scoobyntn on Nov 3, 2005 18:20:22 GMT -5
Regarding your fortified Musketman, I don't think the culture bonus and walls bonus is supposed to be cumulative, but I'm a noob here...
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 3, 2005 19:16:21 GMT -5
lol I just did the math on my fortified musketman. 105% for culture defense bonus. 50% for wall bonus. 10% for initial unit upgrade bonus. 20% for second unit upgrade bonus. 25% for third unit upgrade bonus. 25% for chichen Itzen. 25% for fortification. Nope, try this. Musket starting at 9. 105% for culture bonus. Musket now at roughly 18. 0% for wall bonus (either culture or wall, not both.) 55% for City Defense II and Combat I. Musket now at roughly 23. (18 prior + half of 9, 4.5.) 0% for Chichen Itza. That was already included in what you viewed as your "culture bonus" - that's how you got the 5%, since your city was at 80% before. 0% for fortification - that only works out in the open. In towns, you get the town bonus. So your musket, as your math correctly noted, was in fact 23. I'm not sure how your math got there, but there you go. Now, consider what you're talking about. This city already had an 80% culture level - meaning at least 2500 culture. That's either your capital, or a very old city, or one with a Great Artist. Possibly all three. This is a very significant city. You're defending with a unit that has a level two promotion - that means at least 5 experience. That is impossible without significant fighting unless you have barracks and two civics running, which is not a minor accomplishment and is expensive. You've built Chichen Itza, a wonder of the world that only one player can have and enjoy. So you're telling me that one of your most important cities, with a tremendous amount of culture sunk into it, with very militarily devoted units, and a wonder of the world supporting it is hard to take.Uh...yeah. That's fine. Here's a few other pieces of math for you... Five catapults with barrage 1 can cut your cultural defense bonus to 0 in one turn. Now your musket's defense is roughly 13. (City defense 2 and combat 1.) A maceman from an aggressive civ (8.8) with two promotions, city attack 1 (20% of 8 is just less than two, so we'll round to 11) and "pinch" - the anti-musket ability - now puts that maceman at 13 (11 + 25% of 8, 2=13.) So 5 catapults strip your defenses to empty with a barracks promotion, and a maceman with proper promotions is now equal - precisely equal - to your musket. Examine the cost of macemen vs. the cost of muskets. Neat, eh? So five catapults and a group of macemen can effectively pose a serious threat to one of, if not THE, most heavily fortified city in your empire. And the DEFENDER has the advantage in CIV? Riiiiight. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.CIV punishes the unintelligent, rampaging warmonger. CIV rewards the careful, thoughtful general. Respectfully, you need to examine the game a bit more thoroughly. Next question?
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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 3, 2005 19:37:45 GMT -5
First of all, the smallest defense bonus I had was 85. Second, you seem to forget I have 2 civics running (vassalage and Theocracy) plus I have the agg trait along with barracks on top of it. You talk about using catapults, but I'll hvae catapults too and I can better place my units where they need to go than you can because I have roads and less distance to travel. You seem to think I'm just going to sit in my city while you bombard me and that is simply not the case. I'll use my own catapults on your stacks and attack with triple and quadruple upgraded units. So while you keep harping on this catapult idea, I fail to see how great this is since I can do it to you too and I don't have to travel the distance to do it and I have the benefit of enormous city bonuses on top of it. Plus you forget all the other units besides muskets I hvae in there like triple upgraded longbows. Oh, and lets not forget that wonderful little thing called heroic epic. My whole point is that what I did is way too damn easy to do.
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Post by tenarrus on Nov 3, 2005 19:47:34 GMT -5
Great explanation. Cities can seem overwhelming to take but there are several things you can use to your advantage adding to FP's great post.
If a civ is going to sit in their heavy fortified city it takes a bit of planning but they can be dealt with. First if your enemy is sitting in his nice cozy city let's look at his improvements. If he isn't coming out of the city pillage his roads and resources. Cut off the supply lines. Intercept his troops coming into the city (pillaged roads going to his other cities = slow moving reinforcements from his cities not yours) Next go after the city.
A city square is just that, 1 square. There are 8 other squares usually surrounding it to plan your attack take a few away for coastal cities etc. Look for hillsides, forests to give you +defense this will limit you to a few legit squares to place your attack which is fine, that's all you really need. Even if they have catapults/cannons no worries because your going to be attacking from multiple squares. He/she has to split up their attack and the collateral damage between your multiple stacks. Your going to be focusing your attacks on his only stack. You'll see how quickly the city will be torn to ruins.
I'm sure there are other tricks but this works for me.
On to the next city...
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 3, 2005 21:48:00 GMT -5
Whatever you say, EoN. You're the master.
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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 3, 2005 22:16:34 GMT -5
Everytime you talk about Cats do this cats do that. You never address the issue though when someone has cats in their city too. You just come up with some lame remark and move on. CanuckSoldier has revealed some very telling things which I suspected all along. Great game you guys put out.
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Post by MMV on Nov 3, 2005 22:25:18 GMT -5
I saw Cats - but it wasn't the original Broadway show (just a local college theater group)
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Post by Death to ALL on Nov 3, 2005 23:10:31 GMT -5
Lets see, hmmm
to beat a builder, the best stratagy I find is to get them early, with a choke. Now to make it fun. Try this, choke 2 other civs at once, prepare a couple sledge's for those next 2 civ furter away, and oh yea don't forget to build yourselve to stay ahead in points of that guy on the other side of the world that would take to long to get too, to kill him also. wait what am I saying you only play 1v1.
DTA
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Post by StarlightDeath on Nov 3, 2005 23:13:26 GMT -5
If you are trying to say that 1v1 isn't a good way to play civ4 then you have said all I've wanted to hear and alot of other people I know out there too.
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Post by Death to ALL on Nov 3, 2005 23:25:47 GMT -5
1v1 is a fine way to play, but it isn't the only way, and if you really want to see the depth that everyone is talking about, you really need to try other styles also. Or are you only going to look at it from only one angle before declaring it bad? Since you chose to not play in C3C, then you missed alot of what has gone on with the Civ games since Civ2MP. If you had stayed on thru C3C then you would of seen the change to more then just a 1v1, but sadly you have chosen to stay in the past.
DTA
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Post by ghost on Nov 3, 2005 23:28:23 GMT -5
when are u ever going to get over yourself. CIV 2 WAS ALMOST 10 YEARS AGO. go find something else to enjoy to. i look forward to the day when i come on here and don't have to read half of your stuff I don't like you post. every time i read your post i feel like i get little learning from it, but can't tell you that cause you are mr.knowitall about everything.
If I have to edit another post, Ghost, you get 24 hours to meditate on how much I don't like editing posts. Justified or not, you can't lob those kinds of remarks here. - The Management
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