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Post by aeson on May 6, 2006 15:41:56 GMT -5
Then what the heck are you doing here besides mouthing off and trying to promote your own ego? I am responding to those who wish to extend a discussion that was started over at Apolyton. I am doing so by pointing out the flaws in reasoning that I see in various arguments. Like for instance, your question here is formulated improperly. It is a loaded question that assumes that I agree with your assertion that I am mounthing off and promoting my ego. That is poor form. You obviously feel your assertion is correct, which is fine. Just state your opinion. But when asking me what I am doing here, trying to put words in my mouth is intellectually dishonest. I do not feel I am here mouthing off or promoting my own ego. If I wanted to promote my own ego, I would certainly not be here. I would go post such a game at Apolyton or CFC, where it's reception would generally be favorable. I am sure there are some here who can honestly assess the value of such a demonstration, a few have made statements that they would, but they seem to be in the minority of those who are participating in this discussion so far. I have no delusions in regards to what the response to my demonstration game will likely be. Claims of cheating, exploiting, and further name calling most likely. But I find that interesting as well. Call it a study on human interaction... and a re-affirmation of my own preferences in regards to MP. Technically speaking, I am participating in the community, as the boards are part of the community. I do not participate in the games of course, that has never been under dispute. It has already been addressed by a mod. If you find this discussion irritating, you could have asked me to cease to post here. I am generally quite amiable to those who are not deriding my abilities, character, calling my reasoning into question, ect. There is far less motivation on my part to comply with your wishes if you fail to address me except to extend the argument you are arguing against allowing to extend.
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Post by tommynt on May 6, 2006 16:56:51 GMT -5
thats exactly what i did
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Post by Elledge on May 6, 2006 17:10:02 GMT -5
I have actually changed my mind from last page, and I tend to agree with Weaksauce now that this thread should be closed (if not deletion, etc.) I think this is pretty ridiculous.
Bottom line is Aeson has come into this thread, claiming he can beat a legit Deity game as direct evidence of his claim that there are SP players who are significantly better at SP than MP players are. That's a claim which was met with some skepticism, including from yours truly, but luckily it's one that can be demonstrated simply with a savegame.
He then refuses to demonstrate that claim or back it up with any evidence at all - which he could, if he wished, by downloading a torrent of the game, or by buying a copy of the game, or by opening his copy of the game, or by borrowing a friend's copy of a game, or linking us to someone else who has beat Deity legit, unless someone commits to making an expensive bet online with him about it. He knows this won't happen, if he has half a brain, and so he knows that there's no way to budge his position on the matter, which is starting to look like a pretty silly one the longer it goes.
You did not accept. If you had accepted, this discussion would be over. Instead, you refused. You refused to prove a damn thing, and you are still standing there typing about it instead of proving it. I wouldn't expect anything else at this point, since you made it clear that the only way he could force you to prove it would be to set up an elaborate online bet, probably over the Atlantic, with some anonymous random douche, for some amount over $100, on a topic he doesn't really have a huge interest in. Yeah, that's really intellectually honest of you. How honorable and wonderful.
Earlier in this thread there was a little bit of actual honest discussion going on about differences between SP and MP. Since Aeson started making claims that he refuses to back up, the honesty factor has disappeared, and the discussion is down the drain. I don't think he's an intentional troll, but he's a total troll nonetheless and this is going nowhere.
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Post by aeson on May 6, 2006 17:19:11 GMT -5
Eventually you did. But that was after you first discussed the issue with me to some extent, having instigated the discussion between us by your comments directed at the whole of SP. You had by that point already demanded that I post a game supporting my statements, made absolute statements about my inability to actually play the game, implied I was nothing but an exploiter/reloader, and called me a "big mouth" a few times. And you think I was going to just conform to your request after all that? I already stated (in the sentences directly following the one you quoted) that such actions on [your] part are not what would lead me to comly to [your] wishes.
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Post by tommynt on May 6, 2006 17:26:12 GMT -5
I dont discuss wth dudes - I worked 4 years with insane people that enough for now - it s just pointless
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Post by aeson on May 6, 2006 17:26:15 GMT -5
He then refuses to demonstrate that claim or back it up with any evidence at all - which he could, if he wished, by downloading a torrent of the game, or by buying a copy of the game, or by opening his copy of the game, or by borrowing a friend's copy of a game, or linking us to someone else who has beat Deity legit, unless someone commits to making an expensive bet online with him about it. He knows this won't happen, if he has half a brain, and so he knows that there's no way to budge his position on the matter, which is starting to look like a pretty silly one the longer it goes. I have not said that I will not post the game if I do not get a wager. I have said I will not buy a copy of the game if there is no monetary interest in doing so, given that I have one already on the way. When it get's here I will play the demonstration game for you, no worries. Patience. (I am not going to download the game, period. Piracy is something I do not condone in any case.) I accepted to do so when I receive the game allowing me to play it. It may be a few days or weeks, I don't really know for sure.
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Post by aeson on May 6, 2006 17:55:10 GMT -5
Bottom line is Aeson has come into this thread, claiming he can beat a legit Deity game as direct evidence of his claim that there are SP players who are significantly better at SP than MP players are. I want to address the "direct evidence" portion of this post, as it's a recurring misconception. I have never said that SP players are better at SP than MP players are. If you wish to imply that, quote me. Given your whole standpoint on backing up your words, I would think that is the least you can do. The fact is, I was drawn into this discussion by those making the opposite point, that MP players are better at SP than SP players can be. And my responses were that neither SP or MP can make such a claim. Not that SP players are better at SP than MP players: (my first response to tommy) There's nothing keeping a MP from being good at SP, or a SP from being good at MP... but to be good at SP you actually have to be good at SP. Same with MP. You can't just claim you are one because the other, especially if you admittedly have not been able to do what makes a good "other". I have said Fried is one of the better SP players I have seen: (sorry Fried if this results in further... um, difficulties for you. ) I have said that the best ladder players are likely just as good at SP as the best SP players: My point on this issue was, is, and always will be that you can't make sweeping generalizations about the abilities of SP or MP players based on what they choose to play. Everyone's abilities in any regard are defined by what they actually can do in that regard, not what they can do in some other regard.I'll leave off with my first post on the subject at Apolyton:
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Post by weaksauce on May 6, 2006 17:58:56 GMT -5
I am responding to those who wish to extend a discussion that was started over at Apolyton. I am doing so by pointing out the flaws in reasoning that I see in various arguments. no one invited you here to 'extend' your SP blather to our MP community. you just showed up and started spouting off to everyone. no one here gives a crap about your theoretical views of the world. You say you're a good player, so make an account and start playing ladder games. Until then, no one gives a hoot what u think deity, noble whatever... no one cares. you want to demonstrate something? sign up an account and play vs. some of the players on the ladder. it's pretty derogatory and pre-supposing of you to assume people r gonna accuse you of cheating after your 'feats of greatness' are displayed to us all. u talk a huge game, why dont u just make an account and play a few ladder games then? So the entire extent of ur participation in this community is to post your views on a SP mode in a MP game forum? you are here to preach to us about this game, but u dont plan to play with any of us? Are you for real? How can any admin seriously let this guy continue to post this crap?? SEVERAL PEOPLE HAVE ASKED U TO CEASE. I asked ur posts be deleted. Do you think that means we want more of them?? I'M ASKING U IN PLAIN ENGLISH. GO BACK TO APOLYTON, WE DONT CARE ABOUT UR VIEWS ON SP, IT HAS NO PLACE HERE. CEASE POSTING. KK THX. NICE TO KNOW U. this statement shows ur here only to talk a bunch of crap and promote ur ego. You can deny it up and down, but put up or shut up... make an account, start playing games, or get the hell out. No one cares about half the crap u posted... just go away already. I can't believe mods/admins let this kind of talk go on... this is the kinda crap that ruins the community... if anything does. it's totally counter productive, this guy doesn't even play games in this community/have any ladder account... i'm done posting here... /weak
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Post by aeson on May 6, 2006 18:21:41 GMT -5
no one invited you here to 'extend' your SP blather to our MP community. you just showed up and started spouting off to everyone. I did not say anyone invited me here. Your insinuation in that regard is unfounded. I said that I responded to those who extended the discussion that was occuring at Apolyton. By responding to me, you are now extending the discussion with me, whether that is your intent or not. I have not labeled my abilities. I have said that I can beat Deity under the circumstances tommy (up to that point) had described. If that makes me a "good" player, "poor" player, or whatever, is irrellevent and I have not addressed that label. I have obviously not stated my abilities about playing ladder games. That is something else entirely. I would guess that I am not a very good ladder player, given that I don't play on the ladder. I don't presume to make any judgements about my own abilities to play on the ladder if that were not the case. That is not what tommy (or the others) challeneged me to demonstrate. I have no desire to "demonstrate" anything involved with ladder play, and have made no statements about my abilities to do so if that was not the case. It has already been stated by a few here that they fully expect my results will be due to reloading, exploitation, cheese, and/or cheating. I was not pre-supposing such, just making an observation about the already prevailent view being expoused in that regard. I specifically gave the benefit of the doubt to those who have not made such comments already. I have expressed my views on topics that had been brought up by those who had already posted here. That has been in large part about SP, but has also touched on various other topics. You would have to ask the admin in question that. I can only state what has already been stated in that regard, which is hardly helpful. The point I made was that in being derogatory towards me and addressing my comments, you extend the motivation for me to continue posting here. You say you want this to stop, yet you continue to participate. Make up your mind. If you do not care about what I post, then just ignore it. That is the sensible thing to do. As I said, I think that that is a very sensible course of action for you to take. And if you keep to that resolve, the discussion between yourself and I is at an end. Goodbye.
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Post by Elledge on May 6, 2006 20:36:44 GMT -5
I don't understand this. Here is the question: Is MP best at cultivating general good habits for playing Civ in any format?That translates to: Who is better at SP, the best MP players who don't play much SP, or the best SP players who don't play much MP?Here are the three possible answers: - 1. The best MP players are generally better.
- 2. They are pretty much equally good (which reaffirms the positive side in the first question.)
- 3. The best SP players are generally better.
If you don't believe #1, which is what most of the people in this thread believe, then you must believe either #2 or #3. They are two sides of the same coin. Someone's got to be able to make such a claim. You said: Looking at these it sure as hell seems you are implying answer #3, namely "that SP players are better at SP than MP players." Most of the people here have a lot of respect for the top ladder players (specifically tommy), and think that they are probably going to be best in any Civ format. They think that yes, the best MP players are going to be the best SP players because of the skills they have learned playing MP. You apparently think no, the best MP players won't be the best SP players necessarily, because you know a lot of good SP players and you don't think that the skills carry over as well. To back that up you need to demonstrate that you or someone else can legitimately beat settings on SP that tommy and other ladder players can't, namely this deity game. If you are receiving the game, then great. When you play it if you post an appropriate winning save then I and other people would be interested to see it - personally, I'm just curious how it's done, more than anything, because it seems like a very difficult task to me and I'm sure I'd learn something. That would be progress in this discussion. Until then, this path is a dead horse.
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on May 6, 2006 21:59:22 GMT -5
And that strikes me as an excellent place to end this debate, as no new ground is really being broken, and lots of circles and agitation are being made. Aeson, love to hear from you again when you get a copy. *click*
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Post by Ellestar on May 7, 2006 1:43:25 GMT -5
You say you can beat diety, we all say bullsh*t. Actually, i didn't said so. I said that it's possible to beat deity on standart settings and maybe even him may do it. You think that just calling 90% of what I say meaningless, without offering any direct reasoning to support that conjecture, is not flaming, while actually addressing it directly would be flaming? You think that instead it is better to just call me a name (board warrior) instead of attempting to refute my arguments. Fine. We have opposite views as to what constitutes flaming it seems. Haha funny flamer. Learn to read other's posts. "Also, in many cases you explained to me what IMHO is my IMHO, what my IMHO is different from other's IMHO, what you finally understood my position but you didn't get it earlier because of blah-blah-blah. And all of that doesn't add anything to a healthy discussion. Nitpicking is a sign of a board warrior as well, normal persons don't waste time on it."I find arguments that don't make sense are the easiest ones to refute. Certainly they are the most enjoyable ones to mock the one who posted them with. Do you know english? I said "flames that don't make any sence", not "arguments that don't make sence". Buy a dictionary or something and next time respond to what i actually saying instead of whatever will come to your head first. Otherwise, we can just ignore whatever doesn't lead to, or impact, future discussion. Like... Your posts? ;D Technically speaking, I am participating in the community, as the boards are part of the community. I do not participate in the games of course, that has never been under dispute. It has already been addressed by a mod. No, you're not. Some forums create their own communities, some forums just serve the existing communities (like this one). You're not a member of our Civ 4 MP community.
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Post by zerza on May 7, 2006 8:21:30 GMT -5
Aeson,
Why are you still posting? Either post a save or shush.
"ya, I can do this and that, cant really prove it, but if I post it enough times maybe someone will believe me"
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