|
Post by tommynt on May 4, 2006 5:09:20 GMT -5
Friedrich Psitalon (or some other moderator) could u pls delete aeson s posts - thread is called tommy s strategie guide not dumbass spamage.
he isnt even registered on ladder
|
|
|
Post by islandia on May 4, 2006 11:33:56 GMT -5
Trying to avoid jumping into this debate if at all possible - but you have to admit Tommy - you did start it off by whacking the bee's hive over at Apolyton so Aeson has a right to reply back in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 4, 2006 17:14:23 GMT -5
nope i didnt start discussion on apolyton - at least not the fighting one - that started of when our 2 elle.. guys joined it
|
|
|
Post by aeson on May 4, 2006 20:34:35 GMT -5
I agree with tommy about that. While his discussion with Vel was on much the same topic, I thought he was handling himself pretty well. And it was none of my affair anyways, as he was dealing with the issue rather than sweeping generalizations about SP and those who play it.
After I responded to some statements made here by others, his comments about the inherent nature of those who play SP was just begging for a response though.
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on May 4, 2006 22:09:07 GMT -5
After some review here and at Apolyton, I will not be deleting any posts in this thread. Your ego and skills got you into this, Tommy. Get yourself out. This debate has been quite reasonable - for the most part - and quite polite, again, for the most part. If Aeson, who is a respected member of several communities, wishes to address your remarks on another forum (which were already referenced here) in this forum, I will honor that. If you wish to get exceedingly technical, Tommy, Aeson may post here as a member of the CIV testing and development team, who have always been welcome on this forum. I would ask that we keep the discussion above the waist and away from people's nethers, though, Aeson?
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on May 4, 2006 22:12:21 GMT -5
As a side note, if both Tommy and Aeson would care to play a savegame on a map I generate with conditions both agree to, we can certainly settle this contest simply enough. ::shrug:: I'll just generate a map and the first one I come to that doesn't bury any player in tundra, you can both thump away to your heart's content. No cherry-picked start possible; load the map and go. Tommy says he doesn't care if Aeson reloads over and over, so that's not an issue. I've been staying out of the discussion up to this point largely because I don't much believe in trying to move mountains, and I think the pillars of SP who believe MP is trash - Vel amongst them - aren't any more likely to be persuaded than the pillars of MP who believe that SP is trash - Tommy amongst them. I'm just happy I know of one forum where they all coexist relatively peacefully at the end of the day. You two want to duke it out in proving who's better at SP? Tommy? Aeson sounds willing. I can have a savegame to send you both in under 48 hours, no tundra starts and no cherry picks, either.
|
|
|
Post by aeson on May 5, 2006 0:21:58 GMT -5
Sorry if my statements were hitting below the belt Fried. As for your offer, there are some problems with it. First, as stated earlier, I still have no access to CIV yet. It would clearly not be useful for me to attempt to play a demonstration game before I have the game to play. You know as well as I the reason for this, and would have some notion as to when the situation is resolved. I of course would want a chance to get re-familiarized with the game again before playing a demonstration, as it's been 5 months since I've played at all, and almost 7 since I've played a full game. Second, tommy's involvement is not necessary. The argument is whether I can win on those settings, not whether he can. He says he can't, and that I can't either. My argument is that I can. Whether he can or not is irrellevent. I have no reason not to accept his assessment of his abilities to perform in that regard. Third, I would point out that the statements tommy has made are not that I can't win a single try on those settings, but that I can't win at all on those settings. Certainly, a single game cannot prove tommy's point, but can mine (if I win). I have stated that on standard Deity settings, it's about a 50:50 proposition. I would assume it is more in my favor on tommy's chosen settings, but am not sure by how much given that turning off tech trading and using MP style maps is not common SP practice. (Specifically because it does make the games easier to handle the AI on.) To sum up, a single game wouldn't cut it. It would actually be unfair to tommy's position. (Something to bear in mind when formulating future wagers tommy... due to your stated criteria it makes it technically impossible for your point to be proven. You need to be more careful in determining limits.) All that said, if Hub is the map I remember correctly (center landmass with spokes to starting landmasses for each civ), I should be able to win with a Cultural victory on a first attempt, rust and all. Just need the game first...
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 5, 2006 3:24:50 GMT -5
dude to make u shut up i d even play a SP game ..
Fried - aeson may be a member of diferent civ communities - but i can hardly imagine some1 agreeing or listening to his "great" arguments.
Btw I tried Sp sometimes - and aslong as u dont abuse the exploits in it it s not too bad - I just say it s a joke for competetive play as ai is too dumb - hub map is imo a map where u can abuse the dumbness not too good.
the best example is the axe in wood .. u place it close to cap and ai ll go on saving 3 archers additional to the 3 archers it allways has to defend cities and attack with em - loosing all - it ll go on doing so all time. I can imagine that it s hard to programm a more clever ai - but thats just too dumb. not to speak about that it s happy on 10 gold in ren times where 10 gold are nothing. But on god level with decent far starts I havent figuered out exploits strong enough to beat ai - maybe aeron did - so maybe aeon is even better in finding exploits to abuse ai as i am - but does that make him a better player?
in fact i dont care i just hate spammage of bs - we got sidhe for that allready
|
|
|
Post by Ellestar on May 5, 2006 4:01:11 GMT -5
After some review here and at Apolyton, I will not be deleting any posts in this thread. Your ego and skills got you into this, Tommy. Get yourself out. This debate has been quite reasonable - for the most part - and quite polite, again, for the most part. If Aeson, who is a respected member of several communities, wishes to address your remarks on another forum (which were already referenced here) in this forum, I will honor that. If you wish to get exceedingly technical, Tommy, Aeson may post here as a member of the CIV testing and development team, who have always been welcome on this forum. I would ask that we keep the discussion above the waist and away from people's nethers, though, Aeson? Well, actually there wasn't much flaming until Aeson started to flame there. He started to comment every sentence with like 5 of his. Of course, after 2-3 replies in a row it creates a huge flaming posts. The difference between a flame and a discussion is that flamers respond to sentences while people who want a normal discussion respond to thoughts written in other's posts. It may be easily tracked: Ellestar: 1 quote (2 paragraphs in the quote), 2 paragraphs in a reply www.apolyton.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4407131#post4407131Aeson: 1 quote (2 paragraphs in the quotes, 100% of the post quoted), 2 paragraphs in a reply Ellestar: 1 quote (2 paragraphs in the quotes, 100% of the post quoted), 2 paragraphs in a reply Aeson: 4 quotes (2 paragraphs in the quotes, 100% of the post quoted), 10 paragraphs in a reply Ellestar: 5 quotes (6 paragraphs in the quotes, 60% of the post quoted), 10 paragraphs in a reply Aeson: 13 quotes (9 paragraphs in a quote, 90% of the post quoted), 24 paragraphs in a reply + another reply - 1 quote from earlier post that he already replied to (1 paragraph in a quote), 5 paragraphs in a reply Ellestar: 10 quotes (11 paragraphs in a quote, 45.3% of the post quoted), 12 paragraphs in a reply Aeson: 21 quotes (11 paragraphs in a quote, 91.6% of the post quoted), 28 paragraphs in a reply IMHO it should be obvious to anyone who of the two fuels the flame. And no matter who Aeson was in any other community, here he's just a flamer who's bored because he doesn't have Civ 4 and who didn't found anything better to do than to flame others on forums.
|
|
|
Post by Ellestar on May 5, 2006 4:12:21 GMT -5
Btw I tried Sp sometimes - and aslong as u dont abuse the exploits in it it s not too bad - I just say it s a joke for competetive play as ai is too dumb - hub map is imo a map where u can abuse the dumbness not too good. Actually, HUB is good for that. For example, Wall of Cheese will work just fine. It's when one of your units blocks the path to your cities and AI sends units via sea (with marine attack ROFL) or only through the only available route to your cities that wasn't blocked by you (so you can easily slaughter AI units). And that guy doesn't understand why we think so bad about SP "challenges".
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 5, 2006 6:13:50 GMT -5
ya hub is great to defend the land way - but with the supergodcheat ai was able to land like 30 cavs together with 20 canons on me at some point and declare war same turn .. - i prefered to stop plaiyng then instead loading 2 t back to give ai some gold.
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on May 5, 2006 7:12:43 GMT -5
Let me put this another way:
If you want the SP community to show you respect, you have to show it back. I know lots of people around here view me as a controversial figure, but I don't think anyone would say I'm not a figure of some note. (And my arrogance in the public view probably just skyrocketed.) I'm only making that point to make this one:
In the SP community of Apolyton and CFC, Aeson is equally as well-known. Apolyton - though they often view me as a strange, bizzare stepbrother who has an untreatable mental malady (which may be right, who knows) - treats me with respect when I post there.
Perhaps we should take a page from their book. You may not agree with Aeson - you may think he has a strange mental condition that is untreatable - but give him the same respect you would anyone else who argues well, which he has.
Honestly, if Tommy won't come up with a set of conditions, clearly listed, for play, I don't see that this thread has much further purpose, since Aeson's materials are due to him quite shortly.
|
|
|
Post by zerza on May 5, 2006 8:05:05 GMT -5
Let me put this another way: If you want the SP community to show you respect, you have to show it back. And the same goes for them. Respect is a two way street, and while many of the SP posters are earning it, Aeson is not. He is trolling (think I know a case of trolling when I see it ) He cant play the game, he cant back up his wild claims, basicly, hes full of it. I know lots of people around here view me as a controversial figure, but I don't think anyone would say I'm not a figure of some note. (And my arrogance in the public view probably just skyrocketed.) I'm only making that point to make this one: Well, you've always been a legend in your own mind In the SP community of Apolyton and CFC, Aeson is equally as well-known. Apolyton - though they often view me as a strange, bizzare stepbrother who has an untreatable mental malady (which may be right, who knows) - treats me with respect when I post there. Im sure by his wild boasts he is well known. Difference in MP and SP communities is MP communities you gotta put your money where your mouth is Come on, he said he hasn't played in 7 months, but the games been out only 8 months I'd figure anyway he would at least have a save of his supposed Diety victories. Perhaps we should take a page from their book. You may not agree with Aeson - you may think he has a strange mental condition that is untreatable - but give him the same respect you would anyone else who argues well, which he has. Again, no. Respect is earned here. If you stand up boasting crazy talk, you gotta back it up. We are multiplayers, we PROVE to eachother our abilities, not just smacktard talk about it. Until I see proof, with no cheating used, his posts are total BS. As I said, if he has beaten diety then wheres the save. (and not a beta tester save where I'm sure the AI was even worse then it is now) Aeson, this isn't SP. Tommy has respect here because hes PROVEN hes good. Should you ever decide to prove yourself as well, your posts would bear alot more weight. Until then you will be viewed as a smacktard
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 5, 2006 8:26:52 GMT -5
ironmansettings .. I really tried - I restarted sometimes to have decent land -but i see no way to win if ai can have just 4 times my production (or even more) and they ddint think about attack each other. And as soon as I was able to keep up in teching i was a "threat" and got attacked by every1 which whom i didnt have friendship
and friederich this thread was never disigned to be a bash between mp and sp neither as a prove who is the best civ player - but as zerza stated if u put big words in your mouth u should back em up
I won Ironman the 2 times i played it - so I think I proved that i m a decent player for epic styled games
|
|
|
Post by willburn on May 5, 2006 14:01:13 GMT -5
I have to agree with tommynt and zerza here. Aeson prove your abilities until then i will read your posts as "blablab BRAG blalablaba"
No offence either. This is how it works in multiplayer community. Prove yourself or we dont care. And this is actually quite a healthy attitude I think.
Ofcourse this doesnt mean we dont care at all about newcomers. Newcomers are the lifeblood of our community, all im saying is that anyone that want to brag about theyre skill better back they're words with real play. Attleast if they want to be taken serious in what they are trying to say.
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on May 5, 2006 15:15:14 GMT -5
nope i didnt start discussion on apolyton - at least not the fighting one - that started of when our 2 elle.. guys joined it Hah. Anyway I just wanted to say that if aeson can win on deity as he described then I would have a great deal more respect for his position.
|
|
|
Post by aeson on May 5, 2006 16:41:38 GMT -5
Fried, I appreciate your comments, but don't worry about it. I'm not worried about who respects me. No one I've been arguing with seems to like participating in how I make my arguments, and I respect that. In fact, that's really the point of the argument (with the Elle's and anyone else saying SP play it just because they can't cut it in MP). Showing that having a preference (SP or MP, or argument style) is different than being "scared" or incapable of other styles. (And I'm just doing this for my own enjoyment, I don't care who else sees and/or accepts it.) Basically, I've chosen to post here and at Apolyton knowing exactly what that entails. ----------------------- He cant play the game, he cant back up his wild claims, basicly, hes full of it. ... Im sure by his wild boasts he is well known. Difference in MP and SP communities is MP communities you gotta put your money where your mouth is I will extend the wager to you then, since tommy has not taken me up on it. I have $500 USD to put up, and will match any bet* up to that amount. (* An amount that I would consider of enough significance to waste time on proving/collecting... say over $100 USD.) It would allow me to purchase another copy of CIV instead of open up the one signed by Sid. Put your money where your mouth is zerza.
|
|
|
Post by aeson on May 5, 2006 16:53:56 GMT -5
I have to agree with tommynt and zerza here. Aeson prove your abilities until then i will read your posts as "blablab BRAG blalablaba" I have made a lot of points on various issues in this debate. Not just about whether Deity is beatable on those settings. (Which by the way isn't just about my skills, it's about the skills of everyone. I know at least 20 players who could do it if they wanted. Just post a challenge (and perhaps a reward of some type ) in the GOTM or HOF forums over at CFC if you want to see who.) Ignoring all of my other arguments just because I haven't yet shown proof that Deity is beatable is just sticking your head in the sand. I have not asked anyone to just trust me about it either. I have said I am willing to prove it. (The deeper these guys saying it is impossible dig the hole under their position, the more fun it will be. I'm in no rush...) No offense taken. I have already stated that I will do so. Patience. (If you want a preview to hold you over, you actually have access to it willburn. Just read up on it. You know where. )
|
|
|
Post by aeson on May 5, 2006 17:26:54 GMT -5
The difference between a flame and a discussion is that flamers respond to sentences while people who want a normal discussion respond to thoughts written in other's posts. I quote what I am specifically arguing with, to keep the arguments straight. I prefer that issues don't get muddied up, confused, and incoherent. Flaming has to do with the tone of posts, not the literary or grammatical style of posting. (Consider the typical "you suck" type of flames. They don't even bother to quote any argument usually.) I don't particularly care if my posts are considered flaming or not. I care about the correctness of arguments; mine as well as other's. If you are going to say my posts are flaming, I feel it's important for you to use the proper reasoning to support it. Just giving an analysis of the response rates doesn't do so. Nice analysis of the statements responded to though. I am shocked that my % of post responded to wasn't higher. I generally try to respond to 100% of the statements, less any compliments. (They are annoying to deal with.) And I don't remember any (direct) compliments. Seriously though, I respond to points that I feel require a response. I drop points which I don't feel need to be addressed. The extent of my responses are dictated by how much I feel is necessary to adequetly cover the topic. The statistics about how much I respond to, how much I drop, and how long my responses are is not really good evidence of anything other than to what extent those feelings were present at the time. The other reply was not to a seperate post. It was to a statement in the same post, which I had already quoted, but did not directly address. I noticed this omission too late to edit my desired comments into the post, and didn't want to DanS anyone if it was already being responded to. (DanS'd is the term used over at Apolyton for having late edits to posts that aren't reflected in quotations or responses to those posts.) (Quoted from ellestar's similar post at Apolyton, as that thread passed 500 posts and was closed.) If you wish to participate in the discussion further, I would love to continue. Feel free to use whatever method of response you would like. Contrary to your statements, it has no real effect on the validity or tone of the points made.
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on May 5, 2006 17:36:44 GMT -5
aeon you r really a funny dude - the sort of dudes thinking they were clever - u not gonna be earn money by playing civ - if that d be possible i d be millionair everything else falls under the category unproved big words - in fact i dont really think that it s imposible to beat deity on my suggested settings - i wasnt that far away from - but it s only possible by abusing ai weaknesses and game design flaws - and maybe rushing for some vicotry condiion where i m not sure which one to go - maybe cult - u might be able to pop lots of artists without ai caring about - lets say i dont think u gonna beat diety on 8 player hub map on conquest victory -
|
|