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Post by MookieNJ on May 8, 2007 22:16:39 GMT -5
Why I dislike OCC: What are you supposed to do with this start? This is HB Inland Sea and it's more or less a nice start on a regular map. Pathetic for HB. One Food Resource, are you kidding me? I could try for a quick kill, but that puts me in 5th place out of 6 ... so I need to pray for more kills to advance to the second round or to the points in the finals.
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Post by TheClash on May 9, 2007 3:22:50 GMT -5
Why I dislike OCC: What are you supposed to do with this start? This is HB Inland Sea and it's more or less a nice start on a regular map. Pathetic for HB. One Food Resource, are you kidding me? I could try for a quick kill, but that puts me in 5th place out of 6 ... so I need to pray for more kills to advance to the second round or to the points in the finals. What are you supposed to do ! Easy: play dont cry ;D Its an UQC ! Your sitting on marble and got gold and gems !
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Post by toratoratora on May 9, 2007 7:35:04 GMT -5
Which is Why I suggested Using HB TBG V3 Better map no Desert or Plains But Nobody Listens To Banty only Woumans
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Post by atlas on May 9, 2007 10:40:24 GMT -5
What was the biggest complaint about OCC in general? Its dependancy on luck with resources at the starting loc. ell, this mod only amplifies this problem and makes the game even more lopsided. Everything depends on how much food you get, and this mod takes it to extreme. Without the mod, it at least takes time for the resource advantage to bring results. With the mod, the advantage is right there from the very start and the gap between those who got lots of food and those who got less becomes a lot wider than in the normal game, and a lot faster. Next thing: variety. "With that mod we get plenty, go Oracle, go GL direct, go liberal direct, or go for a ultra quick kill, or skip all and go for space (if its on)."Try again! Oracle is worthless as all techs research in 1-2 turns anyway. So is Liberalism. GL's worth is greatly diminished as it becomes obsolete way too fast after getting built. Quick kill - when the defending side can easily build a unit per turn when needed without even harming their research, killing somebody becomes almost impossible unless you out-tech them by a mile because you have a lot more food. More variety? How about LESS? Industrial trait is worthless, wonders get built way too fast even without it. Financial trait is worthless, by the time cottages grow into towns it's time for Biology already. There go such popular early era leaders as Elizabeth, Mansa, Huayna, Ramses, Bismarck. Playing anything but Gandhi, Peter or perhaps Isabella is just silly. Realistically it's a full-blown Gandhi-fest. To summarize: this mod results in less variety and more dependancy on food resources. It's a bad decision by the TD's to push it into CCC so early. P.S. And if you still insist on it, increase the time to 130 or 140 turns to give us more chances for Space victory without it requiring a lot of food. Agreed, see Mookie's post too, that start is abysmal for an HB map. Everything axius writes here about liberalism, great library industirous and financial traits is all true. I would like to add to that the other problem with this mod is that attacking is silly, but the time you build up say 10 cats and walk them to an opponent he will have Muskeets. This mod is NOT BALANCED for tile distance, tech, and combat.
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Post by Speaker on May 9, 2007 14:04:58 GMT -5
What good are marble, gold, and gems when your opponents have 3 food resources each?
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Post by MookieNJ on May 9, 2007 16:36:02 GMT -5
In comparison, in that game Atlas had 4 food resources and 2 golds himself. No way I can compete with that with my start, sadly .
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Post by yohan11 on May 10, 2007 23:53:21 GMT -5
in the past i loved OCC, i always played these game then they creat C4F map, occ was less interesting cause some can have very good land and others very bad.... then HB and finally UQC i played UQC, it depends COMPLETELY of the land.... at ccc all occ players have nearly the same skill now and ALL depend of land this event is a non sense.... i say this cause i know very well occ i won the first single occ so i know what about i speack some ask me to say what i think about UQC and OCC on this forum so i do occ teamer is more interesting the real skill for this event is wining a 3V3 occ... single occ depend too much of luck yohan11
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axius
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Posts: 220
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Post by axius on May 11, 2007 11:29:16 GMT -5
Which is Why I suggested Using HB TBG V3 Better map no Desert or Plains But Nobody Listens To Banty only Woumans Where can I find these V3 scripts? If they eliminate the things that make bad starts (deserts, etc.) then it's the way to go for OCC. But not TBG - why place somebody in the middle of multiple enemies? Is there HB_Inland_V3? That would be ideal.
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axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
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Post by axius on May 11, 2007 11:42:22 GMT -5
I did play a number of UQC OCC games now. All the criticism stands. In fact, playing anything but Gandhi is a loss. Whoever said they've won with Elizabeth - must have been against noobs or with amazingly uneven starts. There is simply no alternative to Gandhi. The mod dictates a totally one-dimensional style of play, and whoever gets the most food wins, assuming more or less equal OCC skills - which will be the case in the CCC of course.
Please don't use this mod for OCC again. It doesn't solve any problems, all it does is take away the variety.
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axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
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Post by axius on May 12, 2007 16:41:11 GMT -5
I stand corrected about the non-Gandhi leaders. With 120 turn limit wonder-hogging is a viable tactic too if there are no more than 2 industrious leaders. As Gandi I ran 1 turn short of winning the game against 2 industrious leaders who split almost all wonders between themseles (I would overtake them literally next turn with my 1110+ beakers against their 800's). So it can work too. But Gandhi was clearly winning in the end, and if the game was just a tad bit longer or there were more than 2 industrious leaders they would lose.
And in another game Isabella was a quite successful militarist.
So, since alternative paths do exist, I guess this mod doesn't kill all variety. But it needs to be 130 turns - that would add a good possibility of Space too.
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Post by goodmyfriend on May 17, 2007 2:17:00 GMT -5
LOL Axius,
I played about 30 OCC UQC with a lot of diferent and good players, even you was in 1-2 times, all of the Game I use Lizzy and I won 100% again Gandi ( because every1 tell me only Gandi can win so I dont like to play him, even he is a good choise for sure), the only 2 looses was about Theclash (Balmung) and he did play INCA and just got all the wounders b4 me, but if u in lets try a game I will take Lizzy and u take Gandi.
General the Mod isnt so bad, the only thing I realy dont like is the very high luck factor on the Wounders, 2 equal players will get to Oracle, GL everytime in the same turn so its just luck u get it or not, on Normal OCC I can get 1-2 turns faster than my oponent, but on this map its just the same turn, so even may be u finished GL already u still can loose the GAME, and Losse GL for 70% loose the Game.
I also Agree that a OCC teamer would be nice on that map, think the Single event in the CCC shut go back to Normal OCC clas, ren, ind or what ever and the 2v2 shut be done on UQC map.
GMF
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Post by knupp on May 17, 2007 12:34:50 GMT -5
UQC and OCC is like taking civ and giving it massive heroin injections. Everything is so fast you really can't do anything except for tech.
As far as OCC Ctons in general. Why do we even play these? It's completely one-dimensional. Forget about attacking, by the time you have a stack big enough your units will be obsolete. Really your only chance of getting a kill against a decent player in OCC, is to rush them with chariots or impis if they don't have resources. But then you can expect to be way behind everybody else.
OCC Ctons, especially UQC, are won by who has the most food resources, in my experience.
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Post by NumberOneMercury on May 17, 2007 13:57:02 GMT -5
The history of the OCC event.
CCC39
1 FUN - Yohan1 2 GOD - NumberOneMercury 3 ..A.. - Kazache 4 OS - Jibs coisés
CCC41
1 MUD - Everybodysdarling 2 GoD - Audrien 3 LKT - Stilgar 4 MDR - Niluge
CCC43
1 INTER 2 GoD 3 KC 4 JFF
CCC45
1 GoD - Ronster 2 MUD - Everybodysdarling 3 SD2R - TheClash 4 FUN - Yohan1 5 LKT - Vibs 6 KC - Plus-Minus
CCC47
1 FUN - Yohan1 2 MDR - AlieNator 3 RUS - Axius 4 MUD/SD2R
Some clans just don't have good OCC players. As a good OCC player I would like to finally respond to the endless attacks on this event by Mookie, Knupp and others. The OCC takes a lot of skill and thought because every little decision has a magnified impact. The fact that some people win/place high consistently while others do not should be evidence of that. Some might try to get better at it rather than eliminate the event.
Rather than sounding bitter about the above results, it might be better for critics of the OCC event to devote your energy to improving and commending and learning from the people that have rather than calling them noobs and lucky as certain players have a habit of doing.
GOD has a proud history of placing in the top 2 in this event every time except this last CCC. And for your information, in my final in the first OCC cton I had literally no food, not a cow, literally nothing and got second. Enough said.
Yohan (or FUN) does not criticize teamers and ask for them to be banned because he is not good at them. Before you claim to understand how OCC works perhaps you could prove your claim rather than phrasing it as an insult to people that have played this game and become good at it.
I sincerely hope that I will not hear any further criticism of OCC players from people that are not good at them and that any disrespectful attitudes that have been voiced have been in error and not a sign of a malicious attempt to tailor the tourney to the strengths of any one player or clan. Thank you.
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Post by knupp on May 17, 2007 20:10:57 GMT -5
Again with the RaY bashing? You've made it very clear you don't like RaY NOM. You don't need to bring it up every time I disagree with you. OCC takes experience, as with every single gametype. I never said I had a problem with OCC. Only OCC Ctons. FYI, I've placed first twice and second once in the OCC Ren game. I'm not bitter about the results above. Give me a break. Mookie and I never called OCC players Noobs either. Stop putting words into our mouths. This is a blatant lie. You are garanteed food at your start. You could not have had none. Maybe you have a screenshot of this and actually show proof, like Mookie did? This is offensive to Yohan. He is actually pretty good at teamers from my experience. He was the player who helped eliminate RaY in classical. Yea..I'm the one insulting people.. Once again you put words into my mouths. I never critisized any OCC players. I critisized the OCC Cton gamestyle. Not OCC, OCC ctons. If you want to see why I don't like OCC Ctons you are welcome to read my first post in this thread and actually respond to what I said and prove me wrong instead of bashing my clan, which is all you ever resort to.
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Post by tommynt on May 18, 2007 2:43:19 GMT -5
occ cton makes as much sense as cton at all
maybe ALL nonteam gams, even the Ironman games should be played anonymos. Ctons style seems a bit more FFA style, small "weaker" clans unify gainst the strong players and clans.
I have made this experience in every nonteam games i played in the last 4 cccs. Worst was occcton 3 ccc ago when I got attacked from the time drshot could build chariots all game and afterwards even getting killed in a 3 vs 1 when not even leading score and being the military strongest of em all.
Same this Ironman, I was a bit ahead in score but bit behind in tech - got attacked from #3 and #4 in tech which results in a easy win for the #1 in tech who was really weak.
The problem is just the military concept of civ4 just dont give u a chance in a 1 vs 2. Thats the game concept RAY is for example "abusing" often aswell - 2 guys slave a 100 catas and some other units and there is nothing the 1 can do against.
Dont get me wrong going 2 vs 1 or even 3 vs 1 in whatever type of game is clever as it makes u win but somehow I dislike this and it s just unfair in nonteam games
edit: and yes I have to agree to mookie and knupp, if u cant create a 2vs1 or 3vs1 there s like nothing u can do in occcton if u lack food
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Post by Atomation on May 19, 2007 14:21:35 GMT -5
point 1: It's virtually impossible to kill a competent player without double teaming them, so double teaming isn't just clever it's necessary.
point 2: There are at least 5 really good civs in occ, if not more. I think it comes more down to land than civ selection when playing from ancient. Gandhi is definitely not "the best" or "unbeatable" by any stretch of the imagination, in ancient.
point 3: I think wonders that mean something and liberalism ruin occ quite a bit. Same turn buildings just aren't right. Maybe if you have a same turn situation both players can be awarded with the wonder, tech, or great person? This doesn't allow *every* player to get it, like I had posted before, but it does fix the same turn nonsense and it seems kind of interesting as well.
point 4: Mookie, your start spot really isn't that bad. At least your food is 5, so you could irrigate that then cottage your two floods for quite a decent start out. I think your start spot is actually fairly winnable.......but I will agree it isn't ideal. I think that it's only necessary to have 2 quality foods for a strong start, and 1 isn't bad if you have floodplains as you do. The loss of health is a bigger problem than lack of food, especially loss of granary healths. Mind you this is all for uq ancient only, where 1 food res and floods could allow you to grow once a turn much easier than on normal quick, and you don't need to immediately spawn masses of great people.
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axius
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Post by axius on May 21, 2007 17:42:38 GMT -5
LOL Axius, I played about 30 OCC UQC with a lot of diferent and good players, even you was in 1-2 times, all of the Game I use Lizzy and I won 100% again Gandi ( because every1 tell me only Gandi can win so I dont like to play him, even he is a good choise for sure), the only 2 looses was about Theclash (Balmung) and he did play INCA and just got all the wounders b4 me, but if u in lets try a game I will take Lizzy and u take Gandi. Well, we finally played an UQC together for the first time, and my Gandhi left your Lizzy in the dust. ;D So far the only non-Gandhi that was a real threat was Inca played by Yohan11 in the CCC - and I suspect that had a lot more to do with Yohan being an outstanding OCC player than his choice of civ.
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