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Post by venceslas on Feb 26, 2007 16:32:02 GMT -5
"EXACTLY - you CAN sub who you want with another player from the same clan IF THAT PERSON IS THERE (thanks for reinforcing)."
Well I don't understand you, or you don't understand me. In my example, we are registered a player which don't play. That's another player(the sub) which will play all events, so he subs before the start.
Your quotes on the rules MMV has no direct link with your statement:
"This is NOT subbing. Subbing occurs DURING a game, not before it starts."
From what I understand in the rules, actually it's quited allowed to sub before the start.
chris.
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Post by Death to ALL on Feb 26, 2007 16:38:18 GMT -5
Just for some clarafication, for team events to check-in dosn't require the user's password but the team password only. It is quite possible for an entire team to register the day before and someone not even on the registered team to check them in. This would not even require giving a pw as most clans use the same team info for each event they register in.
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Post by MookieNJ on Feb 26, 2007 16:39:49 GMT -5
If that's what he meant, that is EXACTLY how it should be done - mookie registers, checks in and plays if needed - NOT as banty stated in his post Ummm, yeah, that's exactly what I meant! I'm not registering someone else's account for them or anything like that. I'm also pretty sure that's what Bantams was trying to say as well.
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Post by Bantams on Feb 26, 2007 17:09:44 GMT -5
HMMM seems to me IF you dont have a player whos registerd for the event you dont play it right? If thats the case then the last CCC was a crock of nuts everyone played in events they didnt register for maybe the rules need clarifying more I Believe even CS played in a a event he wasnt registered for
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Post by Canucksoldier on Feb 26, 2007 17:31:53 GMT -5
I would say that the real issue here is not subbing per se. But the ability of the TD/Admins to keep track and enforce the matches played by each player.
I will discuss this with the Admin/TD team, and it is likely that in order to remain fair and transparent to the entire ladder that we will consider adding rules to clarify the registration/subbing procedures. I don't believe any clan has been intentionally breaking the "5 events per player" rule, but with out a solid mechanism to track this the perception is there that it could be happening. And that will be the aim of any new rules we enact.
CS
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 18:13:50 GMT -5
I would say that the real issue here is not subbing per se. But the ability of the TD/Admins to keep track and enforce the matches played by each player That system is already in place - and that's the question. The system is that the people playing in the CCC event are registered and checked-in for that specific event. Prior to the past 2 CCC's - it was common practice to notify a TD in the lobby or via pm to say that playerA will be playing for playerB and the change would be manually forced by the TD on the registration page. If it doesn't happen, then the cases "auto-report" process (of most the CCC games) doesn't work; a player registered and checked in gets the win reports and the loss reports if he loses - while never playing in the game. The player actually playing in the game (but not registered or checked in) gets neither the win OR the loss reports. That's why there is a "withdraw" option before an event actually starts. It's always been played that way, properly registering and checking in - using the withdraw option when needed. That's not subbing - that's registration and check-in and you are correct in that "the real issue here is not subbing per se" Subbing in a game (vice subbing in a registration) has it's own rules. There is no such thing as "subbing in a registration and check-in." Trying to further "define" something that's already clearly defined (and practiced) would be fruitless.
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Post by Bantams on Feb 26, 2007 18:20:38 GMT -5
OK MMV you know as well as i do its not always possible with us small clans to get a team in the lobby in time for check in if we are breaking the rules in anyway then i quit this crap KC have done the same thing in the past so have 90% of the other clans youre just pissed you dont even play ladder game atm now FFS go play a earth game
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 18:39:52 GMT -5
Just for some clarafication, for team events to check-in dosn't require the user's password but the team password only. It is quite possible for an entire team to register the day before and someone not even on the registered team to check them in. This would not even require giving a pw as most clans use the same team info for each event they register in I'm nearly 100% positive that during the registration process, before you get to the "start team" or "join existing team" page, you are required to to put your ladder name and password and check "I agree" (to the rules) as the first step of the process. But, that's a moot point, and to be fair, a "given" in that players actually register and check in - but that's not what's in question here. What's in question is making sure the player that actually plays in the event is properly registered and checked in. I think if that's going to be reviewed and changed - then change it so that it doesn't matter who is registered and checked-in instead of letting the tail wag the dog (again) and find ways of working around it. The entire case's ladder system is based on proper win and loss reports (good or bad is it may be); and reporting losses to the proper winner has some very very specific rules. Finally, as CS mentioned, "the real issue here is not subbing per se" - MOST correct - it's proper registration and check in for the player actually playing in the game.
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 18:47:48 GMT -5
OK MMV you know as well as i do its not always possible with us small clans to get a team in the lobby in time for check in if we are breaking the rules in anyway then i quit this crap KC have done the same thing in the past so have 90% of the other clans youre just pissed you dont even play ladder game atm now FFS go play a earth game That wasn't an acceptable reason/excuse (but everyone does it) 18 months ago and it's still not KC has NOT "done the same thing" that either CS or myself are aware of unless, as you stated earlier, you violated the rules during one of your many temporary memberships there.
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Audrien
Settler
Administrator
Posts: 74
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Post by Audrien on Feb 26, 2007 18:58:16 GMT -5
Sigh .... you are soooo stubborn .... jeeez ...
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 19:39:24 GMT -5
Sigh .... you are soooo stubborn .... jeeez ... you mean annual-retentive? (no wait, that's not right, lol) Sorry Audrien but I'm NOT proposing ANY kind of change here; I'm simply opposed to the way it's being convoluted into possible misuse. Yeah, I'm a rules stickler - but I'm one of those that believe that rules are there to protect, not restrict. There are and have been rules for every civ-related issue but it seems lately, for some reason - perhaps a genuine lack of knowledge of the rules - too many "shades of gray" are appearing when in fact, there are no shades of gray at all. (although I MUST say that there are a VERY VERY FEW ladder members on the ladder - none that have posted in this thread - that LOOK for shades of gray between the black and white rules) You know the ones I'm talking about; the self-proclaimed "geniuses" who constantly plead ignorance to the rules (But that would be a seperate topic that I'll never open - come on, if you can figure out how to get the game out of the box and download it to your comp, then you have the basic accumen to understand how to at least READ the ladder rules, lol)
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Post by Bantams on Feb 26, 2007 19:44:20 GMT -5
Do you really want me to post when you last played a ladder game MMV FFS must be the over 50 ormones kicking in theres more to life than friggen winging every other day go play another FFA ffs
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Post by DustyDragoon on Feb 26, 2007 19:45:11 GMT -5
As a person who loves to play with the English language I can see that some (not all) are going to take the rules and bend them to what they feel works for them. The only way to prevent this, is to bring in a lawyer and rewrite the rules. Of course if they are rewritten in legal format none of us would understand the rules. As stated in the "Rules" and also stated by another in this thread, the games are meant to be for fun and to show good sportsmanship. Unfortunately some wish to abuse and misuse the rules to their own pleasure and therefore make life more difficult for the Admins and the TD's. The points that MMV has made are valid and are part of the rules. As a former member of VVV, (a small clan) we would set up our schedule as to who was available for each event and which ones we would most likely be able to compete in at a level required to win at least a few points. This of course meant we would have to forgo some of the events in favour of the ones not only that we were able to participate in but do hopefully well in as well. As a new member of KC, I notice they have the same format in place and ask all members who is able to make what event the week before the CCC. I put a post up a while back stating that some newer clans may not have the knowledge as to how to run a clan (no insult intended here as I know it is a difficult chore to set up a successful clan), and that maybe some of the long running clan captains might be able to help those that wish to start a new clan and give them some advice as to what needs to be done and what rules should be in place. The CCC is suppose to be a "Fun" event for the clans to show off their respective skills and knowledge in each of the events. Dusty
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Post by DustyDragoon on Feb 26, 2007 19:51:57 GMT -5
Do you really want me to post when you last played a ladder game MMV FFS must be the over 50 ormones kicking in theres more to life than friggen winging every other day go play another FFA ffs Actually MMV plays in one of my ctons at least once a week Bantams
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Post by venceslas on Feb 27, 2007 1:49:59 GMT -5
"Trying to further "define" something that's already clearly defined (and practiced) would be fruitless."
Well, that's your opinon, other may have a different, let's the admin/TD explain us the rules. If you disagree with the people who are written the rules, I tend to think you misunderstood the rules.
chris.
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Post by markweston on Feb 27, 2007 9:14:23 GMT -5
I think the problem here MMV is that nobody else actually understands what the problem is that you're trying to describe. I don't care if Tommy registers and Germania plays; I'm just there to play against MUD, whoever they send.
Perhaps you need to spell out what abuses you see happening.
As far as I'm concerned the value of the CCC is the competition for its own sake, and the reports are really an irrelevance.
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Post by MMV on Feb 27, 2007 9:33:55 GMT -5
"Trying to further "define" something that's already clearly defined (and practiced) would be fruitless." Well, that's your opinon, other may have a different, let's the admin/TD explain us the rules. If you disagree with the people who are written the rules, I tend to think you misunderstood the rules. chris. Once again, I'm not asking for NEW rules or a further defination of the rules, I'm talking about the change from what it's always been to how it's being handled now. If I didn't understand, I'd ask.
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Post by MMV on Feb 27, 2007 9:46:39 GMT -5
I think the problem here MMV is that nobody else actually understands what the problem is that you're trying to describe. I don't care if Tommy registers and Germania plays; I'm just there to play against MUD, whoever they send. Perhaps you need to spell out what abuses you see happening. As far as I'm concerned the value of the CCC is the competition for its own sake, and the reports are really an irrelevance. I'm sorry, apparently you haven't read the entire thread. With your stated concern though, it doesn't bother you so don't worry about what you consider irrelevant, lol. Trust me when I point out that if the Admin's had an attitude of "irrelevance," you and yours would be the first to complain. It's the PLAYERS in a game that tolerate this new trend of ANYONE registering/checking-in and then not playing. You'll see it's relevance when you beat a top player - say a number 1-5 rank and you don't get an auto-report from them because a bottom-ranked player was registered in the game and you get loss reports from him instead. And that's only PART of the issue of what is happening now over the way it's always been. HUMOR: What's the difference between empathy and appathy? I don't know and I don't care.
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Post by MMV on Feb 27, 2007 9:56:16 GMT -5
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Post by zzZhenon on Feb 27, 2007 12:42:58 GMT -5
MMV that's the whole point, the cton reporting issue has been going on since it was first in the CCC. I even remember the "problem" back from Civ3. So for this to have gone on for so many CCCs with hardly a word about it shows how irrelevent reports are in the CCC. It's barely an issue. But if someone wanted to make an issue, they'd simply file non-reports, like they are supposed to. As for people signing up for an event they don't play in: So what? Things happen and people can't make it; and it's just a game. I don't think the TDs should have to change people out depending on who played the most in Event X. "Oh well Germania signed up for the event but only played 1 round, while Tommz played 3 rounds as a sub for Germania." The TD would have to fully keep track of all subs and who played what for all clans in every event. In the example above, how could Germania know Tommz would play 3 rounds? or how could Tommz know that Germania wouldn't be back for another round later. So after seeing the apathy of simply getting reports in the cton event, imagine someone getting upset about getting a report from someone who didn't sign up for the event but played the whole thing. In the end, it's having a report at all that counts... if that even really counts at all. So should we do away with reports? Yeah probably, but we really can't since the tournament system kinda relies on it. We're stuck with what we've got for the most part. So far we haven't seen any of these mythical abusers of the system.... <insert conspiracy theory> or have we? I trust the admins and TDs to make the best decision they can. It is after all just a game. Don't take the fun out of it by making it "real." PS -- I understand what you're saying about someone finding a way to cheat the system, but I guess we'll just have to wait until MGT does it.
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