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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 10:34:28 GMT -5
Registration, Check-In, Subs issue:
Noticed two CCC's ago, it's become clear that there is a registration/check-in problem for CCC's.
A clan registers (for example) 3 players for a tournament event
At check in, all three players are checked in.
After seeding/pairing the event, 2 out of 3 of those players are subbed WITHOUT THE ORIGINAL CHECKED IN PLAYERS withdrawing from the game.
Result: The two players that are "subbing" (and win) don't get loss reports generated by the correct players actually involved in the game and the losing 2 players that were "subbed" don't get the automatic loss reports (effecting ladder rank/stats).
Suspected abuse of this? Clearly it's possible and more than probable
This is NOT subbing. Subbing occurs DURING a game, not before it starts.
Clans that have people registered and checked in before game that are going to use different players rather than those checked in should and must use the "withdrawal" option on the event/tournament page before game can start (that's why it's there).
If they don't have enough players (or "can't find the player that already registered/checked in" (as used in an excuse during at least ONE of the last CCC events) should either have the TD force the absent player's withdrawal.
Bottom line, to PREVENT suspected abuse of this feature, all players participating IN a CCC event SHOULD BE CHECKED IN AND IN GAME STAGING AREA BEFORE GAME STARTS.
*note - for true "subbing" of an event, registration and check in player doesn't matter as subbing player does not have to report losses*
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Post by Bantams on Feb 26, 2007 10:59:49 GMT -5
Its Unfortunate yes but if one of the original Players aint shown up for their event Theres not much you can do about it other than use a Sub if subs are allowed. Maybe The TD in charge of the event should ask before events whos playing for which team as it is at the moment 1 player could be playing in 10 events and nobody would know Other than his clan mates?
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Post by whitebull on Feb 26, 2007 11:36:52 GMT -5
Imo, there's no way to be sure that all 3 players will be there at start. We didn't play against KC in last CCC if I remember but just take 1 exemple. Future event, all 3 OS members registered, checked-in, in lobby and on teamspeak. The event start at 23h (french hour ) Just after pairings, we lost [OS]Platinium on all parts, so we subbed him for the first game by OS-Xavier (cannot do the withdraw think at this hour, and actually cannot withdraw a player without know his password). 2 days after, we learn that his PC crashed, and need the hard-disk to be change. What do u want ? The team to be disqualified ? Bit hard rule i guess. I have no solution to give, and i really not sure there is abuse around it, but i don't know, i am maybe too angelic ;D
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 12:10:57 GMT -5
Its Unfortunate yes but if one of the original Players aint shown up for their event Theres not much you can do about it other than use a Sub if subs are allowed. Maybe The TD in charge of the event should ask before events whos playing for which team as it is at the moment 1 player could be playing in 10 events and nobody would know Other than his clan mates? If one of the original players (checked in at event registration) isn't there at start-up, then he probably wasn't available in the first place If he's NOT there to withdraw, how was he there to check in? HOW can you make sure? Refuse to start game in staging area until it's cleared up and all people playing are actually registered and checked in. That's the way it used to be. If you're not there to play when you're registered and checked in, then you clan can't field a team for that event. Again, that's the way it used to be. It's now being misused. Subbing, when allowed by event rules, is there for AFTER a game has started - you can't "sub" a game that hasn't started. Yes, the TD in charge CAN manually withdraw a player so that the player actually playing CAN register and check-in to play the event. Not registered? Not checked-in? Can't play. We had this "abuse" occur in one of our matches and oddly enough, that same player who was registered and checked in BUT NOT PLAYING was also already registered for 2 other upcomming events (Sunday's matches) Some don't remember the bruhaha from Civ3 where this was totally abused - hence the original rule of "no subbing" Subbing has been brought back for one purpose, and is being abused for another purpose.
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 12:14:24 GMT -5
Imo, there's no way to be sure that all 3 players will be there at start. We didn't play against KC in last CCC if I remember but just take 1 exemple. Future event, all 3 OS members registered, checked-in, in lobby and on teamspeak. The event start at 23h (french hour ) Just after pairings, we lost [OS]Platinium on all parts, so we subbed him for the first game by OS-Xavier (cannot do the withdraw think at this hour, and actually cannot withdraw a player without know his password). 2 days after, we learn that his PC crashed, and need the hard-disk to be change. What do u want ? The team to be disqualified ? Bit hard rule i guess. I have no solution to give, and i really not sure there is abuse around it, but i don't know, i am maybe too angelic ;D Yes - TD can manually withdraw player so another player can register, check-in and play. Do I want disqualification? Yes, if you can't register, check-in, and play with the proper players. This is how it should be - there's been MANY MANY CCC events over the years where a clan couldn't muster a team and thus couldn't play an event. As CS posted in another thread - clan management, having the proper players in the proper places at the proper time is VERY much an integral part of the CCC's.
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 12:19:29 GMT -5
and to further illustrate my point....
if playerA, playerB, and playerC are checked in and registered, then don't play the event without withdrawing, these absent players get the WINS without even player, and don't get the LOSS from losing.
That's because the events from the case's tourney page automatically report losses FROM REGISTERED CHECKED-IN PLAYERS once a team reports the entire loss after the event.
Yeah, rules are tough, but they are there to ensure ALL play by the same guidelines.
With how it's being abused now, I could NOT be registered and checked in for ALL events (and play) yet not have a SINGLE loss report against me for NOT playing the entire tournament.
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Post by MookieNJ on Feb 26, 2007 12:44:14 GMT -5
In my mind the CCC has always been much more about the success and failure of the clans as teams rather than the reports generated by the games and received by the individuals.
It's unfortunate that sometimes players miss out on reports while others get stuck with the losses, but it's part of the CCC. For example, in my clan one of our Future players usually can not make it home in time to begin the event, so I often register for him and play the first round if needed. However, if we receive a bye, or there are some sort of connection issues and the game hasn't started, I'll gladly give up my spot for him. Or, in the situation that Whitebull mentioned, if someone's internet connection dies 2 minutes after the tournament starts and a sub is available, there is no reason the team should be disqualified from the event.
In the end, I think this is the nature of the beast when dealing with Case's software and we are doing the best we can. Clans should make every effort to play with the members they registered, but overall this is a clan competition and subsitutions are allowed -- reports be damned.
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 13:20:20 GMT -5
For example, in my clan one of our Future players usually can not make it home in time to begin the event, so I often register for him and play the first round if neededBad, very very bad.
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Post by Bantams on Feb 26, 2007 13:25:27 GMT -5
For example, in my clan one of our Future players usually can not make it home in time to begin the event, so I often register for him and play the first round if neededBad, very very bad. Well I remember 2 occasions when I had to register for KC due to Members Showing up late
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 13:32:38 GMT -5
Or, in the situation that Whitebull mentioned, if someone's internet connection dies 2 minutes after the tournament starts and a sub is available, there is no reason the team should be disqualified from the event EXACTLY - if the event is already started and a sub is available, that IS the time to use the sub IF the event has NOT started and a sub is available as mentioned, the sub needs to register and check in. And, as you stated - for example, " in my clan one of our Future players usually can not make it home in time to begin the event, so I often register for him and play the first round if needed" There was a clan that was COMPLETELY disqualified for an entire CCC for just such actions. (registration and check-in of a player requires THAT specific player's password which is not supposed to be done/used by any other player) Thanks for bringing that up - which totally reinforces my points. Come on Mook - you were around for that and remember.... Overall, some of the rules have become "shades of gray" instead of the black and white they are written in.
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 13:33:37 GMT -5
Well I remember 2 occasions when I had to register for KC due to Members Showing up late If you did that, you were in violation of the rules and it was unknown to your clan leaders. Thanks for the VERY SPECIFIC examples of the CCC Registration, Check-In, and Subs issues that I'm trying to point out
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Post by venceslas on Feb 26, 2007 14:27:59 GMT -5
Well your main point is:
"This is NOT subbing. Subbing occurs DURING a game, not before it starts."
Is it the CCC organisers opinion?
Several time, when a player does not arrive to register, I have seen TD encourage another player(from the same clan) to register. The TD reasoning was:
- You can sub when you want - So I can launch the tournament sooner
At the best it's a very controversery point.
I agree with Mookie, CCC is a competition clan. I agree also with you, potential abuse is possible. MGT would probably find an abuse thanks to that(let's imagine, registered another player if number 2 is in the tournament and sub before first turn).
However, is it worth to penalize all players for a so minor point? I need to think more to have a clear opinion. However I tend to think that previous example in this topic was not abuse.
chris.
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Post by MookieNJ on Feb 26, 2007 14:39:42 GMT -5
For example, in my clan one of our Future players usually can not make it home in time to begin the event, so I often register for him and play the first round if neededBad, very very bad. Lol, why is this bad? The guy can't be home at 5pm EST to start the event, but it's his event to play. I register for him, play until he gets home, and then allow him to sub in for me. If anything, our Future team is weaker for having me in at the start, and I use up one of my 5 maximum events I can play in. Now, if the Tournament Directors had the game up 24 hours in advance, rather than 2 or 3 hours in advance, then the correct player could register and I could sub in for him until he arrives home. Either way, I'm sorry, but I don't see the problem here.
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Post by Gogf on Feb 26, 2007 14:40:02 GMT -5
Well I remember 2 occasions when I had to register for KC due to Members Showing up late If you did that, you were in violation of the rules and it was unknown to your clan leaders. What rule are you talking about?
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Post by zzZhenon on Feb 26, 2007 15:02:11 GMT -5
Please don't try to make this place like C3P
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 15:24:58 GMT -5
Several time, when a player does not arrive to register, I have seen TD encourage another player(from the same clan) to register. The TD reasoning was: - You can sub when you want - So I can launch the tournament sooner EXACTLY - you CAN sub who you want with another player from the same clan IF THAT PERSON IS THERE (thanks for reinforcing). you CANNOT log-in and register a player that's NOT there to do it himself. YES so the TD can launch tournament sooner - as long as THAT player is THERE, REGISTERED, and CHECKED-IN. When a player does "does not arrive on time to register" then that player IS NOT there to register - unless someone does it for him which is NOT within the rules. if you have NOT got the players THERE - REGISTERED - CHECKED IN - READY TO PLAY, then you don't have enough players to play the event. This has NEVER changed. Once again - thanks.
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 15:26:55 GMT -5
Please don't try to make this place like C3P Thank you! (that's my point) But, the BIGGEST question - when did all this CHANGE from the way it's SUPPOSED to be done and the way some here are SAYING it's done?
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Audrien
Settler
Administrator
Posts: 74
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Post by Audrien on Feb 26, 2007 15:35:12 GMT -5
For example, in my clan one of our Future players usually can not make it home in time to begin the event, so I often register for him and play the first round if neededBad, very very bad. MMV i dont think you got what Mookie meant to say. Mookie didnt register with the name and the password of the other player. He registered with his own nick and his own password. After first round was over he just got subbed by the other player. I dont think this is violating any rules. (Mookie didnt use the other players nick and the other players password to register for the game.) Anyway, i understand what you are concerned about in general. But the CCC rules do not clearly state this problem. Furthermore the ladder software of Case's doesnt support any subbing at all. (If you get subbed after the tourney already started there is NO way to give the reports to another player, even though he might have played most of the tourney.) -Tobey-
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 15:50:51 GMT -5
rules regarding everything mentioned in this thread:
As previously stated, specific actions as stated by other people here in this thread; signing-up/registering/checking-in a player when that player is NOT even there is a specific violation of both the ladder rules and cases rules - and in the past has caused an ENTIRE CLAN to forfeit their right to play in a CCC
"everybody does it" was an excuse then and is no more acceptable now as it was ruled on in theh past.
You believe perhaps that I'm "s t r e t c h i n g" this and making it difficult to play in a CCC?
I believe that the parties "abusing this" (with or without "intent") are "s t r e t c h i n g" more than a little just to be able to play in an effort to "win at any cost"
This "specific ground" was covered VERY CLEARLY in the past and really shouldn't have to be covered again.
A level playing field gentleman - that's what the rules are all about
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Post by MMV on Feb 26, 2007 15:55:01 GMT -5
If that's what he meant, that is EXACTLY how it should be done - mookie registers, checks in and plays if needed - NOT as banty stated in his post
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