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Post by DrShot on Jan 12, 2008 1:50:27 GMT -5
I only got through the first 1/3 of the second page before i fell asleep ( ok , almost). FFS, this is insain. I Fell makes a point that he got Das Boot from a game, and the host could have said , hey, get lost, or almost anything ( as I see it) and he would have been less annoyed and prolly moved on. So be it, no big deal. Then, zim zam! now out of frickin NOWHERE this is an "OMG Why is every body always picking on lil ole me"( ie: RAY) discussion. Feeling guilty about something? It did not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the first mention of ray was from Ray, and unjustly. Ray has more 'clan' games than any clan I see on an ongoing basis, they are easily recognized by the "Ray vs. " type of title or mention of Ray / clan/ game in title. This game seemingly was not...no? Ok, lets move on. The entire notion of "elite" is funny to me. what is commonly reffered to as "elite" is often so far from truth. Magnanimous Prick would be more in accordance with the mainstream of noted" elite" in this ' community'. Elite, what-ever. How about self serving, condescending self absorbed small minded lacking foresight and charismatically challenged contemptuous chumps. Actions speak louder than words, if your top notch it will shine through. There are many fine players with positive attitudes towards all. Conversely there is seemingly a larger, perhaps growing, crowd that is quite the opposite. Simply a fact of life, the more venerable will know this through experience and act accordingly by and large. To bring up a certain clan out of the blue is puzzling to me. Lets look at MGT for a moment. He is a pompus asss ( bet you didn't know that one). He is this way by design and he enjoys it -thoroughly. This makes it all the more enjoyable to engage in the banter that he placates. I know how much I enjoy it...and how dull things would be without his dorky comments.
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Post by DrShot on Jan 12, 2008 1:53:39 GMT -5
If I can build on this, I would say that CS just owned you all! Punks, go back to civ 3:D Sure, marr, but there is a very good reason many do not venture into those waters... there the real players simply did what had to be done, we did not talk about it...
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Post by DrShot on Jan 12, 2008 2:28:47 GMT -5
Forums are a very helpful tool. << >> There's a difference between voicing an opinion and be a general jackass. I agree with most if not everything you have said thus far D. Yes, whereas Marr is a tool, albeit not always helpful, I am aspiring to be a general jackass;yet am currently stuck at the respectable rank of Major. BTW do you dictate these posts to your secretary or what?? Ease up on all the GC here ( grammatical correctness) plz.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 12, 2008 3:05:11 GMT -5
Always good to have you around shot, I particularly like your definition of elite ;p
CS
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Post by DrShot on Jan 12, 2008 3:06:42 GMT -5
Rofl at dey (who doesn't play anmore than canuck) NSIrony...? Free Bonus Irony - today only!: KC takes more heat than any clan and how often do we hear them have a conniption...Aside from that one drunkard, obviously (yer silly if you listen to the drunks anyway).
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Post by metallian on Jan 12, 2008 5:41:49 GMT -5
Dey plays much more than Cannuck however he plays inhouse games with RaY mostly which are much more educational than the traditional noob teamer or occ game that is hosted every 30 minutes. Dey has much more of an understanding of the game of Civ than Cannuck will ever will. Cannuck just sits there and shoots down any decent idea to improve the ladder, he just wants to hold the ladder under his noob iron fist.
Also to all you idiots to who got booted from the ladder games, it was me who said so. So don't go blaming bruce or warlord or whoever, just blame me. I can evaluate who can play in certain games and who can't. I generally try to get at least fair teams, whether that is booting a noob player or pro player I do. Anyways, everyone just throw their hatred on to me, I could careless.
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Post by Tony on Jan 12, 2008 6:55:27 GMT -5
Dey plays much more than Cannuck however he plays inhouse games with RaY mostly which are much more educational than the traditional noob teamer or occ game that is hosted every 30 minutes. Dey has much more of an understanding of the game of Civ than Cannuck will ever will. Cannuck just sits there and shoots down any decent idea to improve the ladder, he just wants to hold the ladder under his noob iron fist. ROFL, if he shoots down every good idea why is RAY the most active clan on the ladder? (Well it was last week, not sure about now) What happen to all that crap we heard a few months ago from RAY about see you in civ 5? Yet more hot air? LOOOL this is no suprise, of course it was you pulling the strings. There is NOOOOO way warlord has the bulls to do this; i remember when he used to sit in the a few months back and when he couldnt get into games he used to message me saying stuff like "tell them im not a tool" - I was the only one who used to try and get him in. This thread has nothing to do with elitism, it more to do with human nature. Some people are leaders and some are followers; after being a pancy for so long warlord is clinging onto metallian for dear life - the new caeser if you like. To make up the numbers, when knupp and speaker left you guys replaced them with brown nose lemmings like warlord and bruce ROLF
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Post by atlas on Jan 12, 2008 12:23:33 GMT -5
To make up the numbers, when knupp and speaker left you guys replaced them with brown nose lemmings like warlord and bruce ROLF Bruce and Warlord are nice guys, I see no reason disparage them. BTW As you will note in the picture, lemmings are ALL brown, not just their noses
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 13, 2008 20:57:00 GMT -5
Dey plays much more than Cannuck however he plays inhouse games with RaY mostly which are much more educational than the traditional noob teamer or occ game that is hosted every 30 minutes. Dey has much more of an understanding of the game of Civ than Cannuck will ever will. Cannuck just sits there and shoots down any decent idea to improve the ladder, he just wants to hold the ladder under his noob iron fist. Also to all you idiots to who got booted from the ladder games, it was me who said so. So don't go blaming bruce or warlord or whoever, just blame me. I can evaluate who can play in certain games and who can't. I generally try to get at least fair teams, whether that is booting a noob player or pro player I do. Anyways, everyone just throw their hatred on to me, I could careless. Think this is hiliarious. First, throw all support behind Dey, who, in his posts, doesnt offer solutions, just criticism. Its like he's just waiting for some reason, real or imagined, to jump all over the volunteer administration. Rather childish. Second, "I can evaluate yada yada yada." I remember posts and conversations about what a piece of crap BTS is, how terrible it is, how it will ruin everything. Yet you still play daily. Why if the game is so terrible? Your "evaluations" on this game are nearly always some variation on the theme "This Sucks". Very informative and educational, thank you. Ever so balanced as well. Your temper tantrums are your most notable skill, from what I've seen and heard, you are a true pro at that.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 14, 2008 1:37:42 GMT -5
Dey plays much more than Cannuck however he plays inhouse games with RaY mostly which are much more educational than the traditional noob teamer or occ game that is hosted every 30 minutes. Dey has much more of an understanding of the game of Civ than Cannuck will ever will. Cannuck just sits there and shoots down any decent idea to improve the ladder, he just wants to hold the ladder under his noob iron fist. Also to all you idiots to who got booted from the ladder games, it was me who said so. So don't go blaming bruce or warlord or whoever, just blame me. I can evaluate who can play in certain games and who can't. I generally try to get at least fair teams, whether that is booting a noob player or pro player I do. Anyways, everyone just throw their hatred on to me, I could careless. Met feel free to dislike myself as a person, but unless you have evidence to back it up, don't try and criticize my management of the ladder, you and some of your friends are shooting from a glass house if you ask me, and if you don't know what I'm talking about I'll be glad to discuss how Dey single handedly destroyed the reputation of the Ladder in the minds of the greater Civ Fansight community. Be careful what you start you might not like were it goes. And what exactly does my skill(or activity) at civ have to do with leading the ladder? I am a professional leader...it is my everyday job, and that is what I do here in my spare time, to benefit other people spending there spare time. And btw check the daily results you might find that in my busy real life schedule and designing and testing the new league that I actually played a few games this weekend....amazing isn't it..... And btw I am not RaY trashing although it will likely be taken as such, I have alot of respect for most members of RaY, I am criticizing individuals here not a clan, RaY and every other clan here are valuable members of the MP community. CS
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Post by DrShot on Jan 14, 2008 2:57:59 GMT -5
Dey plays much more than Cannuck however he plays inhouse games with RaY 1 mostly which are much more educational than the traditional noob teamer or occ game that is hosted every 30 minutes. Dey has much more of an understanding of the game of Civ than Cannuck will ever will 2. Cannuck just sits there and shoots down any decent idea to improve the ladder, he just wants to hold the ladder under his noob 3 iron fist 4 4.5. Also to all you idiots to who got booted from the ladder games, it was me who said so 5. So don't go blaming bruce or warlord or whoever, just blame me 6. I can evaluate who can play in certain games and who can't 7. I generally try to get at least fair teams, whether that is booting a noob player or pro player I do 8. Anyways, everyone just throw their hatred on to me, I could careless 9. 1 Do you keep a tally of who does what when and to what extent? ...get a job. 2 Excellent, I bet that looks great on a resume; you do know what that is, right? 3 Time to expand the lexicon. 4 Is it not Atlas' job to bear the weight of the world upon his shoulders? I suggest you do not check the mail for a thank you card from anyone... For every idea( presumably there have been some; as you state you always offer them up) you present you inundate us ALL with your senseless drivel and criticism about how the things are not working. How about something positive, perhaps you should consider that to make this place a better experience for everyone, yourself included. 4.5a [shadow=red,left,300] noob iron fist[/shadow] should be easy to overthrow, no? At least to influence or persuade... 5 Maybe I have overstepped my bounds here. You have been the deciding factor behind all the 'idiots' having been booted from ladder games...impressive prowess, indeed. 6 I bet Brittany Spears would be green with envy to see such an attention grabber like that one. 7 Agreed... with up to 36% certainty. 8 Fair teams...great idea... being an ass in the process, bad call, you can...well, some can be gracious and invite or 'un-invite' players with style( as in class). 9 It appears that the only fear and hatered has been displayed by a small group of people thus far in this thread. Allow me to save the rockkit scientist the time, yea they are members of Ray as well, does that make it irony or a coincidence or irrelevant...I don't know.... If I could care less I would not bother to write a comment none the less edit the comment. Speaking of editing a post.... next time try to write above a 7th grade level, perhaps you could learn a thing or two from dey in your next Ray meeting Metilliwoman. If you weren't so damned serious about all the petty indifferences continually you would/could be enjoyable to be around, lighten up ffs. Follow 'MGT the Hated's' lead
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Post by deyreepher on Jan 14, 2008 3:29:56 GMT -5
Think this is hiliarious. First, throw all support behind Dey, who, in his posts, doesnt offer solutions, just criticism. Its like he's just waiting for some reason, real or imagined, to jump all over the volunteer administration. Rather childish. Second, "I can evaluate yada yada yada." I remember posts and conversations about what a piece of crap BTS is, how terrible it is, how it will ruin everything. Yet you still play daily. Why if the game is so terrible? Your "evaluations" on this game are nearly always some variation on the theme "This Sucks". Very informative and educational, thank you. Ever so balanced as well. Your temper tantrums are your most notable skill, from what I've seen and heard, you are a true pro at that. The whole point of criticism is to find a way to reach a solution. When the leadership does not acknowledge a problem or refuses to see that there is a problem, a situation can spiral out of control. A real world example of this would be the handling of the whole War on Terror in Iraq. Problems were not acknowledged until too late along a whole spectrum of issues pertaining that part of the world and what we have is complete and utter noobness. The only reason why I harp on CanuckSoldier is because he can help facilitate our transition to the next step in ladder development. He has had a plan for the ladder for over a year, but has remained quiet about it. So in lieu of Firaxis giving the MP community its support in helping to be the better game, like CS said, it is up to us to develop this community. Now, I've been busy as of late, so I haven't been keeping track of the forums as much. If you come up with a good idea for the ladder, I'd gladly be a "+1" though I'll probably add a paragraph or two to better tweak your idea. Is it a crime to do that? I can understand that you think that I am jumping all over the admins, but for the reasons stated above and in the previous posts. I know Firaxis/Take2 will more or less end support for this game with one more patch, this game's life cycle is nearly over. What do we have left? Civ Revolutions for the Xbox 360 looks pretty watered down, no support for the game that we love from the developers, the only other option is our own community based effort. Also, if you'd correct your previous statement, I have outlined solutions to many of the perceived problems that I have posted about. Some of the answers I came up with may not have been technical enough to actually implement a solution, ie. the creation of a new ladder, but the general outlines were there as to where one could find individuals who could make it happen. As to Metallian, he can speak for himself. So if you want to rebut this, by all means do.
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Post by deyreepher on Jan 14, 2008 3:41:16 GMT -5
Met feel free to dislike myself as a person, but unless you have evidence to back it up, don't try and criticize my management of the ladder, you and some of your friends are shooting from a glass house if you ask me, and if you don't know what I'm talking about I'll be glad to discuss how Dey single handedly destroyed the reputation of the Ladder in the minds of the greater Civ Fansight community. Be careful what you start you might not like were it goes. And what exactly does my skill(or activity) at civ have to do with leading the ladder? I am a professional leader...it is my everyday job, and that is what I do here in my spare time, to benefit other people spending there spare time. And btw check the daily results you might find that in my busy real life schedule and designing and testing the new league that I actually played a few games this weekend....amazing isn't it..... And btw I am not RaY trashing although it will likely be taken as such, I have alot of respect for most members of RaY, I am criticizing individuals here not a clan, RaY and every other clan here are valuable members of the MP community. CS I single handedly destroyed the reputation of the ladder? You're kidding me, right? We had no respect from the single player community or the developers. A niche group of Civ IV players, that's the general consensus of what the Civ IV multiplayer community is according the Single Player crowd. I hardly needed to destroy the reputation of our community as there was hardly any to lose. I explained my reasons for the situation once. If I have to re-iterate it again, I will. As to your professional leadership, this isn't the military. As a member of the military community for 23 years though in principle many of the fundamentals of leadership are the same, the practice is an entirely different beast. There's a reason why we have such a huge military in the US, where leadership is given and not earned, but I digress. As a leader, I have criticized you. Though you have responded in a satisfactory fashion to some of the issues I bring up, you generally ignore many of the issues I bring up. I don't know about you, but that's avoiding a problem instead of solving a problem. I do give you the benefit of the doubt and I do watch the progress of the ladder when I am not able to commit time to play. You do have the new ladder to hold up as a sign of progress and it's a huge step indeed, but some issues like the format of the CCC just seem to be non-negotiable and it is particularly frustrating to see the same issues pop up from CCC to CCC. So, my job in the military was to be an analyst and problem solver. If we're going on credentials here, I've seen a few problems, thrown you a few potential solutions, now lead.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 14, 2008 23:05:44 GMT -5
Dey I'm not even directly involved in the design of the CCC, other than making sure that the design process happens and the CCC is run on time. DTA and the CCCAC have the key role of doing that. Now of course even the members of the CCCAC can't always agree on everything so someone has to pick the middle ground, and that is what DTA has been doing. If that is all that you can find wrong with me, then I guess things are not so bad around here.
And you may not think the SP community had respect for us, but the they certainly did have respect for us, which doesn't mean they all liked us, but they did all respect us. And that is something that many of us worked on since we were first invited to develop Conquests. Which you showed total contempt for with your actions and you still do with your attitudes. Just because Firaxis is a business and made good financial decisions that were at the same time bad for MP, doesn't mean they have it out for us.
And in the big picture around here, myself and the other Admins and HTD's certainly do response too all the issues around here.....our responses just may not be what Mr. Deyreaper wants, but you only represent one opinion, while I have to keep everyone happy and keep the league moving forward and evolving. So while I'll certainly except that I don't always do what you think I should be doing, but don't equate that to inaction.
CS
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Post by deyreepher on Jan 15, 2008 14:14:27 GMT -5
Dey I'm not even directly involved in the design of the CCC, other than making sure that the design process happens and the CCC is run on time. DTA and the CCCAC have the key role of doing that. Now of course even the members of the CCCAC can't always agree on everything so someone has to pick the middle ground, and that is what DTA has been doing. If that is all that you can find wrong with me, then I guess things are not so bad around here. So you tell me the simple fact that it is DTA who runs the CCC now? You could have saved yourself a whole lot of grief and headache if you had simply stated that the person I needed to touch base with was DTA. Again, this is related to my desire to see transparency with the admin team. So instead of telling me who I could go to in order to see whether any of my ideas were implementable, you gave me and continue to give me the run around. So yes, I think that is poor leadership and I gave you several other reasons as to how your leadership style is affecting the ladder. If you want, I can aggregate all of my posts, distill them and re-post them every time an issue that should have been dealt with appears on the forum, CCC after CCC. Also, the change I was hoping to see which would relieve DTA of the arduous task of deciding what was fair was a spoils system in regards to the CCC. I did specifically ask you, who do I go to see whether my idea was implementable and it was YOU, CanuckSoldier, that shot it down. If DTA was the man to go to, why would you over-ride his responsibility? And you may not think the SP community had respect for us, but the they certainly did have respect for us, which doesn't mean they all liked us, but they did all respect us. And that is something that many of us worked on since we were first invited to develop Conquests. Which you showed total contempt for with your actions and you still do with your attitudes. Just because Firaxis is a business and made good financial decisions that were at the same time bad for MP, doesn't mean they have it out for us. First off, the multi-player beta testers from Conquests that continued on to Civ IV are casual gamers. This is an over-generalized statement, but from what I can gather, the lot of you have no clue as to the state of contemporary gaming. I hate to say it may be a generational gap, but the paradigm seems to fit. I'll give leeway to C3C being the first MP iteration of Civ and the gameplay as the MP element was a mere add on, but one would think that they would have learned from the experience. Again, I can't say from experience, but from what I can recall, the people who transitioned from C3C to Civ IV said there was very little improvement with the whole MP experience, especially in regards to the underlying network solution that they used. My only hope is that the Firaxis team learns from their development of Civ Revolutions on the Xbox360 and takes a cue from working with the Xbox Live framework. A lesson they should have learned from C3C. My total contempt for Firaxis? Hardly, I guess I will have to re-iterate the situation. Beta testing had closed down. They offered us the gold discs for our participation in the program. Unfortunately, the testing closed down around exams and the beginning of family vacations for many of the beta testers. Someone at Firaxis thought it was wise to leave the files on their servers for only a week. Some of the RaY members who were beta testers fell into the exams/vacation category of players who did not read the memo on the Firaxis forums that stated the files were up for only a week. They asked if there was any way to get the files and I tried to Direct Connect through either IM clients or IRC to transfer the files. Unfortunately, this was the time when Comcast had begun initiating its experimentation with traffic shaping and it was proving impossible to get them the files. The only other solution I could come up with was Bittorrenting the discs. As for myself, I had gone away over the weekend while letting them download the discs. Unfortunately, one of our players took it upon themselves to download and then distribute the torrent when he was expressly told not to. This player is no longer welcome with RaY and has more or less left Civ IV. If I had expressed ill will, I would have denied what I had done when Solver asked me whether it was possible that I had leaked the game. If Firaxis/Take2 had decided to take legal action against me, I would have owned up, because that is the kind of person that I am. I did something altruistically that blew up in my face, because I was naive. For you to come out and lambast me for a mistake is one thing, but to directly tie it to my attitudes toward the ladder admin team is a personal failing on your part. I now know that you are taking my posts personally. I am sorry about that. I know my posts are not direct attacks upon your personal character, but they do attack your actions and thus indirectly are judgements upon you. I have tried my best to come up with ideas that are cost-effective and implementable within the current framework that you are working with. If you recall, I did ask a few questions about what the Case's Ladder system and what the Admin team were capable of and revised my ideas accordingly. This was all before the BTS leak incident if you remember. I do realize that my ideas may not be good, but as is true with most, they can be worked on and possibly implemented as we do have a talented community of gamers to work with. I am not an unreasonable person, if I am told something is not possible due to budgetary reasons, personnel limitations, architectural constraints, or release deadlines I can live with that. The problem that the beta testing forum had was similar to the issue that we have here. Lack of transparency and the failure of the forum moderators to keep the discussions on track. The WIC beta and the BTS beta were just miles apart in terms of openness and direction. I'm fairly certain both teams had similar amounts of developer working on their respective products. I'm sorry crypto for egging you on to a buy a game that you ended up not liking. I'll name my first born after you. And in the big picture around here, myself and the other Admins and HTD's certainly do response too all the issues around here.....our responses just may not be what Mr. Deyreaper wants, but you only represent one opinion, while I have to keep everyone happy and keep the league moving forward and evolving. So while I'll certainly except that I don't always do what you think I should be doing, but don't equate that to inaction. CS The problem I have is that your responses are cryptic and I think the ladder admin team has a possible future as a spin machine for Jeb Bush's run at the presidency. I do know my opinion is only one opinion, but you have to keep in mind that your vision of the ladder is only one vision. So while I applaud the move to the new ladder, I only hope that you learn that you can take steps in a new direction without the world coming crashing down around you. If you don't want me to make assumptions, all you have to do is be more open about your line of thought. It's not like I think your sole job is to sit behind a computer and only take care of what I think needs to be done for the ladder. I do know you're in the military and I know how demanding that is. As I've said, most of our ideas are usually to help streamline the ladder, increase player participation and involvement; and to ensure a future for our community. If that somehow runs afoul of what you think the ladder priorities are, let us know now. *Addenum* I thought that post was one of your better posts Canuck. It was pretty open and brutally honest. It caught me totally off guard and I wish you had brought the whole issue up sooner so that I could apologize. Being cut off from the beta testing crowd, I couldn't say I'm sorry, give my side of the story, and then say I'm sorry again. Now I know I have half a year's worth of the beta testing community's wrath being reflected in some of the attitudes that I am seeing.
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Post by deyreepher on Jan 15, 2008 14:24:13 GMT -5
Dey plays much more than Cannuck however he plays inhouse games with RaY mostly which are much more educational than the traditional noob teamer or occ game that is hosted every 30 minutes. Dey has much more of an understanding of the game of Civ than Cannuck will ever will. Cannuck just sits there and shoots down any decent idea to improve the ladder, he just wants to hold the ladder under his noob iron fist. Also to all you idiots to who got booted from the ladder games, it was me who said so. So don't go blaming bruce or warlord or whoever, just blame me. I can evaluate who can play in certain games and who can't. I generally try to get at least fair teams, whether that is booting a noob player or pro player I do. Anyways, everyone just throw their hatred on to me, I could careless. Met feel free to dislike myself as a person, but unless you have evidence to back it up, don't try and criticize my management of the ladder, you and some of your friends are shooting from a glass house if you ask me, and if you don't know what I'm talking about I'll be glad to discuss how Dey single handedly destroyed the reputation of the Ladder in the minds of the greater Civ Fansight community. Be careful what you start you might not like were it goes. And what exactly does my skill(or activity) at civ have to do with leading the ladder? I am a professional leader...it is my everyday job, and that is what I do here in my spare time, to benefit other people spending there spare time. And btw check the daily results you might find that in my busy real life schedule and designing and testing the new league that I actually played a few games this weekend....amazing isn't it..... And btw I am not RaY trashing although it will likely be taken as such, I have alot of respect for most members of RaY, I am criticizing individuals here not a clan, RaY and every other clan here are valuable members of the MP community. CS Since I keep hearing about how all I do is criticize and offer no ideas, and certain other members get the same nuts from the other CanuckSoldier fanboys, I'm going to make a nice long post on why Civ4 is a stagnant community and is unable to compete with other online communities due to a number of factors that will follow. I already said all these things years ago and they were all readily dismissed by know it all darkstorm (you call him canuck soldier, a name he took on after he went to Civ3 and none of the Civ2 players followed, more on that later). Take off the hate EyesOfNight hats for a moment and disregard the normal way I behave. 1. Clans The clan system in this game is extremely unorganized and down right useless in most areas. The whole point of a clan is so that you can play as a clan, yet random shuffle is almost mandatory in ladder games? What is this? I have never seen a game before where other players come in and demand that teams be shuffled, especially when it is a clan that is playing. It wasn’t that way in Civ2, and it sure wasn’t that way in any other game I have played, all of which had much healthier online communities. In addition, in a community that is as small as Civ4, you need to make wearing clan tags mandatory. This is another aspect I have never seen before where you can’t tell who is actually in a clan and you have to go to a forum list to find out. I talked about this years ago, but like everything else nothing was ever done. On the same issue of having a small community, I have heard people say you need to limit the total number of players in the clan. This is actually wrong, and there is a much better way of doing it: • The reason there seems to be a shortage of players is because there has been severe mismanagement in the promotion of the league and in the promotion of clans and their benefits. I see no marketing being done on the part of the ladder to bring new players in with special features. CCC is a horribly run system, and all you have to do is look at other online communities to see better ways (see section 2). • If you increase the competitive nature of clans, people are going to start booting people from their clans for not making the cut. This is how it works in all other games (I will explain in section 3 why this isn’t the case in Civ4). People will of course still keep low level players in their clans if they like them. • Through increasing inter-clan competition and the ability of clans to function as a clan in normal ladder games, there will be more incentive to actually join a clan. In addition, through proper marketing, it will be possible to bring lower level players into the league. Clans are always a draw for lower level players, my experience in other games has proved this time and again. The real issue again is that it’s not being marketed properly. 2. The Problem with CCC You know there is something wroth with CCC when even LongHorn will admit it is a terribly flawed system. I already told you how to fix this years ago, but I’ll do it again. Let me start off with some of the issues surrounding CCC: • The settings are often times weird and don’t appeal to higher level players. • The entire tournament takes place on one weekend making it especially difficult for all players in a clan to be online. • There is a large time span in between each CCC. • It requires a tournament director to be present which means more manpower is needed than what is really required for an even like this. I will direct you to the World Clan League system employed in games like Age of Empires and many others. It’s very simple, each week 1 clan plays against another clan in a series of games decided in the tournament settings. You divide a number of clans up into groups and these groups basically play a round robin. Each game won counts as 1 point and the clan with the highest number of points advances to the playoffs. The playoffs are formed from the top clan in each group and they then play in tournament format with settings decided by the admins. The advantages of such a system are pretty obvious: • This system results in more team games played as a clan. • The full week of scheduling to play gives clans a better chance to have their members on. • It eliminates the need for a tournament director beyond moderating on the forums and helping with scheduling issues. • It gives clans a chance to improve over time as they play and will increase clan play in normal games as the tournament lasts over a period of months. • It takes the same amount of time as the period in-between CCCs, but it is a continues flow of games. This system is used in many games for cash prizes number in the thousands, I’m sure it’s good enough for Civilization 4. 3. You elitist jerk! Ok, seriously, I have never heard the word elitist used in an online computer game before. The fact that people actually use this word just underscores the serious issues concerning competition and the way Canucksoldier and those in charge of the community approach it. Healthy competitive communities have a very high competition level with the upper level players controlling the community. This isn’t the case in Civ4 and it’s pretty clear why. CanuckSoldier pretty much runs this community like a daycare. As one person put it a while back, “put on your helmets and kneepads kids because today everyone is a winner!” Sorry, but successful online communities don’t work this way. This isn’t communist China, nor is it some socialist paradise where the supposed peasantry is oppressed by the evil elite and need to be brought out of bondage by the ruling party. It’s a computer game, and there are winners and there are losers, deal with it. This idea that everyone is equal and we should all hold hands and be great friends is detrimental to the competitive nature of online communities and computer games, and it shows in the absolutely stifling atmosphere that is present in Civ4. I have seen in entire threads about how someone got booted from a game for not being good enough and then the great CanuckSoldier jumps in and lectures these players about the spirit of the ladder. In no other game would something like this be possible, in no other game would someone be stupid enough to run a community like this, and in no other game would it even be remotely possible for one guy to control the entire community and the direction of the game. Online communities need competition, and they need high level players that stand out for others to look at and inspire the desire to play more and improve. It’s a fundamental characteristic that this ladder severely lacks (part of it was the cases rung system that has been corrected), and it’s part of the reason why you are missing out on a large number of lower level players who aren’t bothering to join the ladder. In other games, upper level players are seen as heroes and thousands of people will download a recorded game to watch it and try to learn. In this game, anyone who stands out is considered elitist scum and is derided by administrators for not being the nice guy that plays with everyone and fits into CanuckSoldier’s little dream that he sees for his idealized online world. 4. Ladder Issues I won’t go into this because in the screenshots the new ladder seems to have fixed everything. Good job. 5. Current Administrators It’s pretty obvious at this point that the current administrators have failed this community. I see no evidence to back up the claims that they are keeping this game alive and everyone else is just criticizing and not helping. The fact is this: • You have a group of completely inexperienced players who are low level and anti-competition who are in charge of the community. • Even worse some of these players speak with Firaxis directly about the direction of the game. This is absolutely unheard of and I am not exactly sure how this was allowed to happen. In no other game would this be possible, and it certainly wasn’t possible in Civilization 2 (more on this in section 6). • The administrators openly deride players they perceive as not acting in the spirit of the ladder. This is terrifyingly similar to a communist government, especially when you factor in their rabid goal of destroying competition and promoting low level players, and I have to wonder if CanuckSoldier is so intent on keeping his position because this is an opportunity for him to build his idealized little society. • Over and over again I have heard the problems with CCC, and even administrators saying it is a flawed system, and yet nothing is done. In the corporate world if you admit there is a problem and fail to fix it, the correct thing to do is resign. This of course will never happen because you have people in charge who cling to power as their only source of importance in their otherwise meaningless lives. • The admins don’t approach the league and the community like a business. It’s why there is no campaign to bring in new players, no innovation, and certainly no improvement. What you need are admins who are willing to enact change on a regular basis and who promote the competitive nature found in every single other game in existence online. 6. DarkStorm/CanuckSoldier I have actually known him since 1999 in civilization 2. He was as much a low level player then as he is now, even though he has repeatedly denied this. Back then we had a league called Civleague that used its own equation based on expected outcomes. It completely dominated the community for a number of different reasons. There were numerous attempts to try and move the community to cases ladder during the course of Civilization 2. These all failed for the very fact that the top players controlled the community and they supported Civleague. I’m not exactly sure how Canuck rose to the position of power he is in now. In Civ2, there wouldn’t have been a chance in hell of him becoming a community leader so I can only surmise that his opportunity came when PTW was released and all the Civ2 players decided not to move to an otherwise broken game. Whatever the reasons, it has been an absolute disaster. He doesn’t display the qualities needed in a leader, and he severely lacks the knowledge of the game and the knowledge of how competitive online communities work. He has been very good at dividing and conquering the community through the promotion of low level players and the constant demeaning of upper level players. Slogans like “One community one league” have paralyzed others to the point that they couldn’t imagine making a competing ladder. The fact is that Cancuksoldier approaches his position not as a hobby, but as a true position of power that he clings to like others on the administrative team. The reason there is never any change is because change would weaken his position. As long as he is the one controlling the community, the community will continue to suffer. In conclusion, it is not that people just criticize, it is that CanuckSoldier has been very good in degrading anyone with an opposing viewpoint. If you are a high level player you are an elitist. If you don’t agree with him then all you do is criticize and never put forth any ideas. If you put forth new ideas they never get implemented and they are either brushed off as not feasible or they are given the classic “we’ll take this into consideration.” Just like societies in the real world need periodic changes of leadership, so do online communities. I make my living off of my understanding of how competition works and how people interact online through a competitive environment. I approach this as a hobby, not as something I need in order to validate the importance of my existence. For those of you who think there is a better way to run things, ask yourself why over all these years there has been no change or innovation. Think about it, and the answer should be clear. EyeOfNightThis sums everything up quite nicely. I tend to go off on tangents with my posts. It's been awhile since I've had to write history papers or analysis of literature.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 15, 2008 17:53:54 GMT -5
Dey I'm not trying to hide anything or mislead the ladder. RaY had active members of the CCCAC, and I have not changed the pw to that forum, so when I put DTA in charge since my operational deployment made it impossible to lead that effort, I assume that the CCCAC reps actually read that forum, it is not knowledge that need be seen by the ladder as a whole, but CCCAC reps are free to pass onto there clans what they deem pertinent.
I'm not sure what issues you feel that I've ignored, but if you want to list them I'll certainly respond with intellegent replies. I guess my normal calm and thoughtful replies have left you to believe that I am hiding info, I assure you that that is not the case, I just perfer not to let emotion rule my life.....but even I can get pissed off on occasion. In my opinion the Head Admin of the League should not be generally replying in anger and always present a professional image, but that's just my opinion.
CS
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Post by cryptococcus on Jan 16, 2008 5:05:29 GMT -5
WTF is your problem dey? Are you mad because you are not great at civ? So instead you try to sound so smart in the forums? I don't get, I can't even read your 3 page posts anymore.
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Post by Matlowe on Jan 19, 2008 3:24:34 GMT -5
i think dey beleives his ideas are the greatest and always correct, even though he supposedly only plays ray games he knows more than anyone else. believing noone listens to him so he goes on a post rampage. sorry if your opinions arent put into practice, now go and write a 3 page essay reply to me please. We obviously need more mental health professionals out there. .
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Post by papercut on Jan 19, 2008 5:21:44 GMT -5
All i heard from gay is WHAA WHAA WERE A BUNCH OF BITCHES.
Y DONT U ALL STFU NO ONE GIVES A TOSS
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