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Post by deyreepher on Jan 6, 2008 19:53:15 GMT -5
Dey, no complaint about unsportsmanlike behavior was ever made to the admin team about any specific player, with out that we normally do not take action without evidence. My comments in this thread were aimed at what I see as a systemic problem with a small minority of players and there actions. I don't see what the current ranking system has to do with behavior of ladder players, and for that matter we are in the process of creating a new custom designed league software to replace Myleague. Well, I don't know about you, but booting a player that you had previously invited seems to be unsportsmanlike conduct to me. Otherwise what is the objection of the original author of this thread? If it is just pure bashing of players, then that needs to be quashed which your forum moderator does not have a good history of correcting. If you think that some actions on my part can change or effect this problem, let me know, but personally I doubt that any leadership quality on my part can make people become better sports and act in a more mature fashion. I do realize we all have high hopes for the implementation of this new system. However, you still have the problem of leadership. Maybe my analysis of the situation is wrong, but this whole situation should have been taken care of by the administrators. Instead, the dirty laundry was aired out so that all the forum lurkers could jump in, give their two cents, and then throw more gasoline onto the fire. I don't see how that is productive. I have let this thread progress as I see it as a good "forum" for people on both sides of this argument to vent and let there emotions be known, as this issue is really about how people *feel* about the situation. Hopefully at the end of this people will realize that there actions do have a real effect of the lives of others even if it is just a computer game. CS I would be pissed as well if I was invited to a game and then booted. More often than not, I will bow out of a game if I am the last player to be invited and we need 1 more to even up the teams. However, I have a feeling this wasn't the case with eiffel and I think it was a not very sportsmanlike thing to do.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 6, 2008 21:30:02 GMT -5
What "forum moderator" are you taking about Dey? All Admins are forum moderators as part of there job. As to the process, Admin's only take action on complaints, and Eiffel has neither complained to an Admin nor provided any evidence to the admin team, and although we are not a court we do strive to operate under a quasi-legal system. I think that this issue is best handled by the ladder as a whole rather than trying to pin the fault on a specific individual, which I don't think is the case. My understanding is that brucebruce is normally a very good host, and was likely acting under peer pressure during this incident, therefore you could deduce that if he is guilty of bad sportsmanship then so are all the players that pressured him into making that call. As you can see if I start to point the finger of blame in this case the net could be caste very wide. Which is why I think this is better dealt with in the open and hopefully people will open their eyes now and see that this is not the way forward. It costs nothing to be polite and that is all it really takes to avoid these situations in the first place.
CS
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Post by deyreepher on Jan 6, 2008 22:02:48 GMT -5
What "forum moderator" are you taking about Dey? All Admins are forum moderators as part of there job. As to the process, Admin's only take action on complaints, and Eiffel has neither complained to an Admin nor provided any evidence to the admin team, and although we are not a court we do strive to operate under a quasi-legal system. I think that this issue is best handled by the ladder as a whole rather than trying to pin the fault on a specific individual, which I don't think is the case. My understanding is that brucebruce is normally a very good host, and was likely acting under peer pressure during this incident, therefore you could deduce that if he is guilty of bad sportsmanship then so are all the players that pressured him into making that call. As you can see if I start to point the finger of blame in this case the net could be caste very wide. Which is why I think this is better dealt with in the open and hopefully people will open their eyes now and see that this is not the way forward. It costs nothing to be polite and that is all it really takes to avoid these situations in the first place. CS Well, that's my point. When a player has an issue, they don't go to the admins. They come immediately to the forums and start screaming bloody murder. So instead of a situation that can be discreetly resolved by the admins and parties involved, you throw in the rest of the ladder. What is most important to us in such a situation is the outcome of your rulings, your transparency second. During one of the previous CCCs, when Levi ejected a player from a singles event for bad mouthing him we had a transparent process. I would have thought that the admin leadership would have learned from that situation. There are many different motivations that could be behind a player's motivations for coming to the forum and laying out their problems: 1. They feel they were wronged. In this case, there is an emotional component that you will have to do deal with. No matter what kind of arbitration you administer, unless you pick the side of the wronged, they will feel they were cheated out of a fair judgment call. This is probably the most common outcry during tournament time. 2. Personal vendetta. This may stem from #1 in that a grudge is held against a particular player(s). It may be due to being lost in a heated rivalry or they may hate a particular player(s). There is nothing you can do about this, but you can mitigate these sentiments from spilling over outside of competition. Sometimes trash talk goes a bit too far and well, this happens alot during the tournament weekends and inbetween. 3. Upsetting the ladder community on purpose. Some players have nothing better to do than to just muck up drama. They have nothing helpful to add to the development of the ladder community, all they do is help to incite other members of the community into taking one position or another. Forums are a very helpful tool. If you've ever frequented forums before, then you'll know that things can go quickly wrong without stern moderation. There's a difference between voicing an opinion and be a general jackass. In cases of player grievances, it should be a place of last resort. You've gone to the admins for abritration, however, things did not go in your favour. You're positive you're right, because the admins weren't able to convince you and so you come to the forums as a litmus test. That's fine, but with this community, the forum is the first place to go. The admins do what, exactly? You file non-reports and some of you may even TD events. That is pencil pushing, no leadership is necessary for that. When a dilemma rears its head, in most cases the admin team just makes a few comments and lets the whole issue just pass. Self-improvement comes from identifying a problem, analyzing it, and then taking a proper course of action to ensure that you do your best that such a situation does not arise at a later date. Instead, as I said earlier you let the problem go unchecked and we see similar situations arising every CCC. How does all this tie into unsportsmanlike conduct? Well, lack of leadership leads to a lack of decorum. If nobody checks un-civilized behavior, do you really expect to have a community of angels? Blaming players is one thing, but what have YOU done to minimize this from happening again. As I recall, about a year or two ago, this was an issue, the booting of players. It's always really been an issue, it's just never been directly addressed.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 6, 2008 22:34:07 GMT -5
Dey, I'll be the first person to tell players not to bring situations to the "court of public opinion" and let the Admins and TD's carry threw with an investigation first. But that is a policy based on enforcing the clear rules of the ladder. But Brucebruce didn't cheat or have multiple accounts or verbally abuse or degrade anyone. At worst he was guilty of bad sportsmanship and bending to peer pressure. And while I could punish him and anyone else that I "think" pressured him into doing this, that would inevitably mean making a decision with little or no evidence to back it up, based solely on my gut feeling, which is a slippery slope for us to walk down.
And even if we made specific rules that pertained to the team game process, they would likely be very hard to prove or enforce, and the last thing we need is more "he said she said" situations.
Which is why I let this thread take it's nature course rather than lock and move it right away, sportsmanship is something the entire ladder has to buy into, I can stand here on my soap box all day and throw half the ladder in the box arbitrarily for not acting right, but I'd rather let the ladder exert some peer pressure on a positive note this time and hopefully people will change there tune....if not then I will certainly set a few examples if this behavior continues to flourish instead of people learning a lesson from the situation that Eiffel has made public.
And btw Dey, I would be careful in your criticism of the leadership of others, I've had more than one complaint form other players asking me to remove you from the ladder on moral grounds, details that I won't go into here, but you know what I am talking about and that is enough.
CS
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Post by deyreepher on Jan 6, 2008 23:34:15 GMT -5
Dey, I'll be the first person to tell players not to bring situations to the "court of public opinion" and let the Admins and TD's carry threw with an investigation first. But that is a policy based on enforcing the clear rules of the ladder. But Brucebruce didn't cheat or have multiple accounts or verbally abuse or degrade anyone. At worst he was guilty of bad sportsmanship and bending to peer pressure. And while I could punish him and anyone else that I "think" pressured him into doing this, that would inevitably mean making a decision with little or no evidence to back it up, based solely on my gut feeling, which is a slippery slope for us to walk down. And even if we made specific rules that pertained to the team game process, they would likely be very hard to prove or enforce, and the last thing we need is more "he said she said" situations. Which is why I let this thread take it's nature course rather than lock and move it right away, sportsmanship is something the entire ladder has to buy into, I can stand here on my soap box all day and throw half the ladder in the box arbitrarily for not acting right, but I'd rather let the ladder exert some peer pressure on a positive note this time and hopefully people will change there tune....if not then I will certainly set a few examples if this behavior continues to flourish instead of people learning a lesson from the situation that Eiffel has made public. Points well taken. I will buy into all of those reasons given. As moderators, you can steer the course of the discussion. That is what moderators do during debate whether it be elections or for sport. Once the mud slinging starts, that is the point where a moderator needs to step in, flag a post, let the poster reformulate their post and then go from there. What you need is a forum moderator that has experience in this. I have stated this before. And btw Dey, I would be careful in your criticism of the leadership of others, I've had more than one complaint form other players asking me to remove you from the ladder on moral grounds, details that I won't go into here, but you know what I am talking about and that is enough. CS No, I don't know what you are talking about. You can email me the details or if you would like, you can create a post with the complaints if you think it would benefit the ladder. So, let's go ahead and open up that can of worms, since my memory needs refreshing.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 6, 2008 23:45:22 GMT -5
No if you want I'll email you with the details, it is not something that the ladder as a whole need concern themselves with, and I have no need to vent on the forums about anything CS
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Post by gitbliss on Jan 7, 2008 7:44:30 GMT -5
Forgive me but I cannot resist voicing my opinion on this and since I am new I might have a different view on things than you veterans.
The insident is very clear in my view. The boot was wrong and anyone would be mad about it.
But, this is a game with people of various ages and mindsets, things like this will happen no matter what the admistrators do. Only the community itself can isolate and eliminate such behavior.
Now on my 2 months here I think that the ladder is actually a nice place!
It is a nice place not because people are calling me noob or idiot because i made 1 wrong move with a warrior, and they do despite beeing, alot of the times, worst players than me, but because....... there are alot of people, the majority, that enjoy and are good at the game, are polite and willing to get new people into the game, have good humor, and playing a 2-3 hour session with them is one of the best on-line gaming experiences I ever had (and I had a lot).
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Post by Bantams on Jan 7, 2008 8:29:50 GMT -5
sorry i must have it G instead of R its fixed now easy mistake sine G and R are so close
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Post by cryptococcus on Jan 7, 2008 10:16:38 GMT -5
Rofl at this topic, Rofl at the RaY bashing, Rofl at MMV, Rofl at Spamntams, Rofl at woumans, Rofl at dey (who doesn't play anmore than canuck) policing canuck!
PS. WIC sucks ass, I want my $60 back from RaY!
When is new ladder starting?
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moineau
Warrior
Administrator
Posts: 330
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Post by moineau on Jan 7, 2008 12:10:43 GMT -5
Crapto stop rofl or i launch on you Ninoub the assassin ;D We hope to have the new ladder end of january
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grilla
Worker
CCCAC Representative
Have a banana!
Posts: 165
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Post by grilla on Jan 7, 2008 14:49:37 GMT -5
Whew! Who died? you smell the stink? Wow, putrid man, putrid. Gotta wash my grilla suit now! ;D Long live The Ladder!
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 7, 2008 14:52:06 GMT -5
Rofl at this topic, Rofl at the RaY bashing, Rofl at MMV, Rofl at Spamntams, Rofl at woumans, Rofl at dey (who doesn't play anmore than canuck) policing canuck! PS. WIC sucks ass, I want my $60 back from RaY! When is new ladder starting? Yes things can be quit humourous at times, but I don;t think there was any "RaY bashing" going on here, some of the players might have been from that clan, but that doesn't necessarily mean RaY was the intended target of the first post. CS P.S. Crypt, come back and play Civ, hopefully if Slaughter gets back from vacation soon we will have the new system up and running and start a new age in our history.
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grilla
Worker
CCCAC Representative
Have a banana!
Posts: 165
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Post by grilla on Jan 7, 2008 14:55:57 GMT -5
cryptococcu=[lkt]nwbdwg
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 7, 2008 15:19:18 GMT -5
Forgive me but I cannot resist voicing my opinion on this and since I am new I might have a different view on things than you veterans. The insident is very clear in my view. The boot was wrong and anyone would be mad about it.But, this is a game with people of various ages and mindsets, things like this will happen no matter what the admistrators do. Only the community itself can isolate and eliminate such behavior. Now on my 2 months here I think that the ladder is actually a nice place! It is a nice place not because people are calling me noob or idiot because i made 1 wrong move with a warrior, and they do despite beeing, alot of the times, worst players than me, but because....... there are alot of people, the majority, that enjoy and are good at the game, are polite and willing to get new people into the game, have good humor, and playing a 2-3 hour session with them is one of the best on-line gaming experiences I ever had (and I had a lot). Yes I think your statements are very correct, as well it is always hard to judge peoples words in an online environment as we can never see their body language that goes with them, and then we tend to put our own slant on the words we see. People then tend to get very polarized about these issues, but with a little common sense and understanding most mature players can see past these issues and solve any problems. Like any "playground" most social issues should be addressed by everyone and "policing" should only be used on issues were that fails. CS
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Post by MMV on Jan 7, 2008 16:04:13 GMT -5
cryptococcu=[lkt]nwbdwg Really? I thought they would have named him cryptococlktus...... (sorry crypto, trying to get another rofl from you - you look good with a sense of humor; and I mean that in a very STRAIGHT way, lol)
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Post by lordelgis on Jan 7, 2008 17:06:17 GMT -5
OH my bad then bantams all is good then Do not back away from your statement and how childish it was. If you really want to make up for it then delete that post. Canuck, This did not start out as RaY bashing but has turned into exactly that. MMV, I will let your comments speak for themselves. How PC of you. Eiffel, you know I have always enjoyed playing civ with you and my comments are not directed at you at all and I am sorry that this situation happened. I am merely pointing out that a moderator and a TD of the ladder bashed an entire clan that includes many nice people. Nice to know that moderators and TDs can bash clans and name call without any repercussions. These offenses need to be addressed and I will lose faith in the leadership of this ladder if it is not. ( Yes canuck I respect the thankless job you do)
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Post by lordelgis on Jan 7, 2008 17:14:53 GMT -5
Bantams has at least fixed his reply so I will now accept his actions. Heres to you Bantams you are a grown up again ;D
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marr
Worker
Posts: 169
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Post by marr on Jan 7, 2008 19:17:34 GMT -5
Just because your a TD or a moderator, doesn't mean you have to like everyone and everyones clan. Your job is to reinforce the rules; doesn't mean you can't have an opinion;)
Metallion should be kicked out of Ray for his behavior!
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 7, 2008 20:28:58 GMT -5
OH my bad then bantams all is good then Do not back away from your statement and how childish it was. If you really want to make up for it then delete that post. Canuck, This did not start out as RaY bashing but has turned into exactly that. MMV, I will let your comments speak for themselves. How PC of you. Eiffel, you know I have always enjoyed playing civ with you and my comments are not directed at you at all and I am sorry that this situation happened. I am merely pointing out that a moderator and a TD of the ladder bashed an entire clan that includes many nice people. Nice to know that moderators and TDs can bash clans and name call without any repercussions. These offenses need to be addressed and I will lose faith in the leadership of this ladder if it is not. ( Yes canuck I respect the thankless job you do) Well LE, I guess we are seeing things differently here, there are only 3 moderators that have posted in this thread and that is myself, moineau and Longhorn, and I don't think that any of us have "bashed" anyone. As for the TD, they are players as well and are entitled to there opinions as is any player, I only hold them to the same rules as any player is, they only are affected by special rules when they are conducting a tournament, otherwise they are just players that volunteer there time to run tournaments for other players and are not held to the standards that I expect of Admins and the HTD's. But feel free to email me specifically about what you think is improper in this thread. CS
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Post by AngelofLove on Jan 8, 2008 0:37:18 GMT -5
hey gitbliss nice of you to say glad your having fun and your not an idiot we all make mistakes in a game lol i should know i make them all the time. and hey im a TD i didnt say anything bad be nice to the poor TD lol . ;D
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