ot4e
Settler
Posts: 98
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Post by ot4e on Aug 29, 2007 13:16:10 GMT -5
I am sorry for giving new life to this thread, but there are some things not clear for me yet. I wrote comment to the last thread but got no answers.
Recently I stucked to the following problem. I joined 5x5 ladder game, then got disconnected after 15-20 turns ancient start. In the morning I went to know about the game result. Mate told me that enemy team forced them to play with AI instead of me. It is no problem for me to report for myself, but that's obvious that my team shouldnt be doomed for my connection failture. And surely they would have enouph anger at me to report all, and I am not even sure that it is enouph payback. Because my team recieved 1 report and had to report 5 times in exchange.
It is often situation that the players refuse to accept subs due to any reason. The system needs to be reworked and rethought.
And after a lot of games scrapped I came to the following conclusions.
-People do not usually try to enter another's game. It is hard to continue after the others player. -Subbing player do a favor for the both teams. -Good players do not want to sub noobs and they mostly can do nothing to correct game situation after somebody's bad start. -Winning team have no reason to reject sub. Actually players who cry about 'too good sub' can obviously win against AI only. -It is pleasure to play with and against good players. -Ladder games are to be continued to the end.
And what I suggest.
1)Whenever the player drops he has 10 minutes to come back. He also carries all the responsibility for the game result and can be forced to report all in some cases.
2)After that his team and the other team has 10 minutes more to get sub. His team has priority to get any proper sub but if they dont recieve the success the other team can suggest their sub too. After this 20 minutes of waiting dropper's team decides what sub to get or to play with AI. But under any circumstances they cannot be forced to play with AI as well as scrap game without everybody's approval.
3)Everybody who leaves during waiting without the reason has to report all.
4)Team refusing sub, continuing with AI admits as conceeded.
5)Leaving is allowed after 3 or more players left reporting all. The game is admitted as 'scrapped' in this case.
6)Players trying to ruin game intentionally must be punished up to be put in the penalty box as any other cruel infringer.
7)The rules can be specific for the caps game. But in the shuffle ones talking about 'skill rating' and 'too good sub' are not serious. But is some players if the opposite team insists subbing player can take responsibility for reporting to make it completely fair from the side that the report level must be equal to the player's level. The only thing I stand for is the ladder games to be played to the result and prevent them from being forcely scrapped.
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Post by cryptococcus on Aug 29, 2007 14:01:00 GMT -5
Maybe you should just go read rules already in place and then you wouldn't have to waste your time coming up with your own.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Aug 29, 2007 18:21:01 GMT -5
Your #1 suggestion is already the ladder rules, players that drop out of team games report to all.
As to the rest I won't comment specifically yet, but remember that any rules have to be enforceable, so if you want to convince the Admin team to add/change rules, the largest issue is how would players prove a situation happened and what proof would the admins ask for to prove a situation. If reasonable proof can't be found for a given situation then it becomes a "he said she said" 100% of the time, and that makes the rule useless no matter how well intentioned it is.
CS
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Post by Matlowe on Aug 29, 2007 21:26:16 GMT -5
I beleive that as host of a game this is the decisions that they have to make. During a game someone drops and the other team doesnt accept a sub, they cant force to play on with AI. if u cant get a equal sub, you have to take the closest one, even if it is heaps better than the guy who dropped. so if this happens in game it is up to the host what to do. And if the game ends up turning out like yours did, i would jsut f**kyn leave and go play SP to play with AI. jsut like canuck said its only a he said she said argument. accept sub no matter who it is.
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Post by Gabrie1 on Aug 30, 2007 15:27:06 GMT -5
i was in that game ot4e was suckage...they manage to beat us,the killed the ai of course we killed one but lose on pts cose they still had better civs lader rulles sux,we have to folow them,but the basic ones.When i hear a f**king noob sayng:HEY,u got 10 min to find a sub or cont whit ai!!nuts like that drive me crazy...we ladders are a little different,u can find sportmanship and players who play for fun in ladder but only top players,noob ladders are f**king desperate bout reports u just can hear them:hey u owe me a report,hey u owe me a report,report or i will not play whit u anymore!!....SHUT THE f**k UP DAMMMMMMMM there are few players like this even among pros,taht are desperate bout reports,that is sad Don't get me wroung we have to report and respect rulles but cmon don't b so strict bout them is a f**king game played by same ppl all time,let us keep a good atmosphere and have fun,ppl will get borred of so many f**king fights for some stupid rulles and sub and nuts,we will end up playng sp if keep like this
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Post by cryptococcus on Aug 31, 2007 2:50:14 GMT -5
It always amuses me how the person owed a report is frowned upon for wanting their report, while the lazy f**king schlub is looked at as the great one.
You piece of nuts non reporter are the one in the wrong. It takes 10 seconds to do a report nuts head. Just do it.
BTW, gab, your off the tractor list!
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Post by zzZhenon on Aug 31, 2007 10:10:45 GMT -5
screw that, I've had noobs tell me I have 10 mins to find a sub in a random shuffle teamer... wtf is up with that? I'll tell you right now, if someone gives me an ultimatum like that you are INSTANTLY on my DNP list. Don't piss people off with dumb crap, it's only yourself you hurt in the end when you find people don't play with you anymore. PS - in a random shuffle teamer, maybe the host should be the one to report since they let the person into the game , the team with the missing person is stuck of pure luck (or lack thereof). So yeah don't give me the 10 minute crap in a random shuffle, it could just have easily been you stuck with the dropper.
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Post by Tony on Aug 31, 2007 11:20:38 GMT -5
Am afraid Metallian and petethecivilized combined with longhorns lack of common sense has ruined the sprit of the game IMO.
This is what happened 2 days ago, it was a 5v5 shuffle, the teams don’t really matter. After about 30 turns the host drops after constantly lagging, then about 10 mins after that another player on my team drops. I don’t know why they dropped, I believe its network issues as they are not known to do such things, but this again doesn’t really matter. The point is I was in the game missing 2 players.
After about 15 mins of searching for a sub, we couldn’t find anyone even nearly fair. So they said continue with AI or concede. First I thought they were joking but after a while it was apparent they actually wanted me to play with AI. So I didn’t press continue, because it’s a nonsense idea playing on with 2 AI, 1 might even work in some situations when your winning by a lot by 2, when your losing on points already, is just a waste of time.
Anyway after a while, because I didn’t press continue they said you got 1 min to press continue or you auto-concede. WTF, where did this rule get made up from? No reload from the lobby even. When did it become a rule to press continue? What if your afk?
I feel this has truly broken the sprit of the ladder, I have been playing teamers for almost 2 years and never seen something so underhanded, what makes it worst is both of these 2 have been ladder for so long.
Seemed like a pretty nonsense, clear-cut decision, but unfortunately longhorn was on non-report duty :S, who is perhaps not known for his quick thinking.
Anyway, this leaves me with 2 options next time, I’m faced in such a situation
1) Fire up azurus, and make each turn take 5 mins (plus the 4 drops I’m allowed). 2) Next time I’m on the opposing team to either of them, I refuse any sub and make them play with AI.
Both options are very underhanded and goes against what I’m about, but this is how such problems will be resolved if common sense isn’t applied.
Now adding either of them on a so called DNP list is not really an option, firstly because I don’t really do/like such gay lists and secondly because there are only like 50 active players on the ladder, you cant really afford to not play with people that annoy you.
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Post by Lestat on Aug 31, 2007 12:39:22 GMT -5
Y why she will press CONTINUE in vote screen. Lets hold all there 3 hours and look at shes virtualy streeptease.... as admins said 10000 times sub is gentelwoumans agreement...not must... play or leave and report
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Post by Gabrie1 on Aug 31, 2007 13:45:22 GMT -5
It always amuses me how the person owed a report is frowned upon for wanting their report, while the lazy f**king schlub is looked at as the great one. You piece of nuts non reporter are the one in the wrong. It takes 10 seconds to do a report nuts head. Just do it. BTW, gab, your off the tractor list! WTF cry,u out of ure mind,i wasn't talking bout me,i sad u hear them in lobby talking whit others...hey u owe me a report. i report all time is not a problem for me smart ass,tell me when i owed u a report?cut the nuts talking like that i may forget one time nuts heapend,to all btw u miss the point,was tryng to say that ppl play only for that damm stupids reports,and bring up all stupid rulles.is like WTF???u play civ4BTS?or f**king chase to gather as many reports as u can? REMEMBER!!!!WE PLAY CIV FFS NOT LOCKING FOR f**kING STUPID STATS,that is why we gather in lobby to play the game first of all
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Post by zzZhenon on Aug 31, 2007 15:42:55 GMT -5
lestat is now on my dnp list ;D
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ot4e
Settler
Posts: 98
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Post by ot4e on Aug 31, 2007 15:55:18 GMT -5
Seems like Tony got my idea. That's can be real trouble whenever players dont understand that the fact that one of them dropped is sad and sad for all not to his team only.
Yes 1) isnt a suggestion coz i've only wanted to mark that I dont want to change a lot, no revolution required. The others arent complete rules improvements. Of course you are much more competent in this question and can make it work properly. It is just out of my style to suggest nothing when I see that something is wrong.
Reports mean absolutely nothing for me, but I value it as ladder cash. I like ladder because if you lose you "pay" and you cant leave whenever you want. It makes games last to the result. I like to finish all games, without scrapping 33%.
There is nothing more frustrating than losing because somebody was replaced by AI. Each moderate ladder player knows AI's weak sides and can abuse it easily.
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Post by metallian on Aug 31, 2007 16:17:51 GMT -5
Like I said in my email Tony I am not going to be forced into scrap anymore. This is why I will be filing on anyone who leaves or is disconnected from the game. I am guilty of this as well bu I assure you this won't happen anymore. Also, if the team cannot find a sub they can even continue with the AI or concede. The spirit of the ladder? WTF is that, we all play for fun? I play to win and when someone quits the game and forces me to get a sub for them I get pissed. I actually find myself always looking for a sub for the opposing teams dropped player which is ridiculous. I hope everyone on the ladder can find it in their hearts to hate me more.
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Post by cryptococcus on Aug 31, 2007 17:53:14 GMT -5
Indeed metallian, the noobs in the noob shuffle teamers are getting smart. Get bad team and drop and lag on first turn.
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Post by Tony on Sept 1, 2007 4:26:29 GMT -5
Like I said in my email Tony I am not going to be forced into scrap anymore. This is why I will be filing on anyone who leaves or is disconnected from the game. I am guilty of this as well bu I assure you this won't happen anymore. Also, if the team cannot find a sub they can even continue with the AI or concede. The spirit of the ladder? WTF is that, we all play for fun? I play to win and when someone quits the game and forces me to get a sub for them I get pissed. I actually find myself always looking for a sub for the opposing teams dropped player which is ridiculous. I hope everyone on the ladder can find it in their hearts to hate me more. Your missing the piont, as i said above there are certain things that people can do which fall within the rules, like drop 6 times, cause lagg, and just generally make the game really unfun for all. But generally speaking most people on the ladder apply a little common sense and win/losses are taken in good faith. This has nothing to do with having fun or playing to win, its about good sportsmenship. Just trust me on this, if everyone done what you did, lucky most people dont, the ladder would be a mess. Personally speaking if i was on your team and i was mad about the drops, i would have got the 2 droppers to report and innocent bystanders not. And btw .... Is pressing continue a ladder rule? CS? Dont want an answer from longhorn. So if someone is afk for 10 mins is this a auto-conceede? I have a feeling longhorn doesnt know the rules but other admins not saying anything to save him face.
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Post by sausageface on Sept 1, 2007 9:45:10 GMT -5
Your #1 suggestion is already the ladder rules, players that drop out of team games report to all. As to the rest I won't comment specifically yet, but remember that any rules have to be enforceable, so if you want to convince the Admin team to add/change rules, the largest issue is how would etc etc etc CS look seriously, can we fix these rules?? ive been trying to be as positive about bts as possible. I am now finding it quite hard... (not necessarily because of the expansion it self) games kinda suck nowadays. It is not because of the game itself or whatever, its always been broken and had problems, but because none of the vets play anymore it isnt as fun as it was. Now i am fine with this, because it is bound to happen.... the problem u have now is, there are a lot more newer players (newbzors) who just dont know the rules etc... ehhh wahtever. people have said what im saying now 50 times before i guess and it is about as fruitful as whinging about chagning game mechanics to firaxis.. Lets keep the ladder rules as they are... because that is waht wil happen anyway
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Post by longhorn on Sept 1, 2007 11:29:03 GMT -5
I have had quite enough of your disrespect and attempt to make this a formal hearing in the court of public opinion. You have showed how little respect you have for the admins, the ladder, and the rules. You can not hold the other team HOSTAGE because you cant find an acceptable sub for a half an hour. Subs are a courtesy by agreement, period, end of story. If you don't have a sub and the other team will not agree to a scrap, then you MUST play on with the AI or concede. Why don't you try and stop whining and report your losses like a man. They are about to be forced against you- and I have given you all the opportunity and extra time to report. Like I said in my email Tony I am not going to be forced into scrap anymore. This is why I will be filing on anyone who leaves or is disconnected from the game. I am guilty of this as well bu I assure you this won't happen anymore. Also, if the team cannot find a sub they can even continue with the AI or concede. The spirit of the ladder? WTF is that, we all play for fun? I play to win and when someone quits the game and forces me to get a sub for them I get pissed. I actually find myself always looking for a sub for the opposing teams dropped player which is ridiculous. I hope everyone on the ladder can find it in their hearts to hate me more. Your missing the piont, as i said above there are certain things that people can do which fall within the rules, like drop 6 times, cause lagg, and just generally make the game really unfun for all. But generally speaking most people on the ladder apply a little common sense and win/losses are taken in good faith. This has nothing to do with having fun or playing to win, its about good sportsmenship. Just trust me on this, if everyone done what you did, lucky most people dont, the ladder would be a mess. Personally speaking if i was on your team and i was mad about the drops, i would have got the 2 droppers to report and innocent bystanders not. And btw .... Is pressing continue a ladder rule? CS? Dont want an answer from longhorn. So if someone is afk for 10 mins is this a auto-conceede? I have a feeling longhorn doesnt know the rules but other admins not saying anything to save him face.
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Post by Bantams on Sept 1, 2007 11:40:07 GMT -5
And btw .... Is pressing continue a ladder rule? CS? Dont want an answer from longhorn. So if someone is afk for 10 mins is this a auto-conceede? I have a feeling longhorn doesnt know the rules but other admins not saying anything to save him face. Not pressing Continue comes under unsportsmanlike behavour rule number 1 I guess
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ot4e
Settler
Posts: 98
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Post by ot4e on Sept 1, 2007 12:29:04 GMT -5
This thread is for discussing rules and game situation only. Please blame admins in another thread. I hope to listen to CS's comments about this question.
Situation ¹1 Forcing to play with AI or conceed One player drops and doesnt seem to appear soon. The other team says "muahhaha, try to do it with AI, we will accept no sub!" or each sub "is too good". Who can fairly evaluate players skill level? Why do you need this? Suggestion: Any sub is good, not accepting = losing.
Situation ¹2 Conceeding without whole team agreement One or more players from team dont want to play, conceed and leave without allies approvement. The others had chances but it may be hard to get sub, or the enemy team starts leaving too thinknking game is done. All troubles because of noobs probably did bad and were about to ruin the game. Suggestion: If the game lacks 2 or 1 player it looks for subs. If there are 3 leavers or more the game is scrapped with those 3 leavers reporting all. It is redicilious when they game is decided without your opinion. May be you have had the plan or something. Why are you forced to conceed? Getting 3 subs or playing with AI is the same. I think only whole team can conceed. In 3x3 the game is decided if whole team leaves as it is by default. In 4x4 1 player can be freed from reporting if his 3 dumb allies betrays him.
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Post by Tony on Sept 1, 2007 12:44:32 GMT -5
Nothing to do with disrespect for admins or rules, I never had a disagreement with any of the admins(and pretty friendly to ladder players in general) or had a forced report. But i just find it impossible to beleive that not pressing continue after 10 mins is a ladder rule and if this didnt involve you losing face, i know CS would agree with me - other admins too. Because such a nonsense rule is uninforcable for a start.
Now if someone doesnt press continue for 10 mins can i leave as they have auto conceeded? Because i know if anyone else ever done this, the admin on non-reporting duty would laugh. What makes the whole situation worse is CIV has a function that takes majority vote about about 15 mins.
The reason i posted it in the forum, because its almost laughable, if you dont press continue you forfit the game.
If this rule comes under good sportmenship, then LOOOOOOOOOOOOL doesnt this work 2 ways?
Metallian and co. have exploited a loop hole, wait until longhorns on non-reporting duty. Well done guys gj.
I know I'm in the right but tired of arguing
But can i get some clarification on the rules, just so i know for next time - and as i said before not from longhorn please.
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