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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 6, 2006 14:26:48 GMT -5
Cheap Workers Cheap Granary Cheap Harbor +2 Health in every city
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Is Expansive too powerful? Or is it balanced with the other traits? Just wondering what everyone else is thinking about this change now that we've had some time to play with it.
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Post by ironclad on Dec 6, 2006 15:01:05 GMT -5
Well since the game is designed for epic style play I would say no Fin by far best, then maybe phi or ind
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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 6, 2006 15:14:17 GMT -5
Well since the game is designed for epic style play I would say no Fin by far best, then maybe phi or ind To be fair, the game was designed with SP and MP receiving equal weight in development, so to say epic style game play was their top priority isn't exactly true.
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Post by ironclad on Dec 6, 2006 15:22:27 GMT -5
Quick Epic multiplayer I mean
We play quick city ancients, non tech based but point based
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Post by Atomation on Dec 6, 2006 15:46:37 GMT -5
The only times i've found expansive not to be overpowered is when you are playing on a very high difficulty and you can't expand as much, thus don't need as many workers, or on future where workers are so easy and fast to get that the expansive trait becomes somewhat overkill. Already made a thread on this topic on civfanatics, and they counter with arguments like "what if you had no land and all water" or some obscure narrow situation where expansive isn't overpowered as their reasoning for it being balanced...yeah ok, we all play on those settings ALL the time!
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Post by zzZhenon on Dec 6, 2006 16:55:09 GMT -5
Yeah I think 50% worker production is overkill. I think it should be reduced to 25% or 33%.
Ultimately though maybe expansionist isn't too powerful.... it's Isabella that's too powerful.
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Post by churchill1 on Dec 6, 2006 17:15:37 GMT -5
Ultimately though maybe expansionist isn't too powerful.... it's Isabella that's too powerful. That's true to life thought isn't it? I thought Isabella ruled the universe or something. And to give my opinion - the new feature to expansive is just mindbogglingly super. Cheap granary and 2 free health was quite handy on its own (I hadn't realised expansive gave cheap harbours).
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Post by ironclad on Dec 6, 2006 18:16:10 GMT -5
lets just nerf fin also thats too powerful, lets jsut nerf everything It is not overpowered in anc, its just powerful -- As well the trait is not the best for long games which is what the game is made for ;p
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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 6, 2006 18:46:45 GMT -5
lets just nerf fin also thats too powerful, lets jsut nerf everything It is not overpowered in anc, its just powerful -- As well the trait is not the best for long games which is what the game is made for ;p Financial was already nerfed once. Expansive was given a boost because it was too weak, and we are only now realizing that this boost was probably too much.
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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 6, 2006 18:47:20 GMT -5
Ultimately though maybe expansionist isn't too powerful.... it's Isabella that's too powerful. The Zulu aren't overpowered? Or Bismarck?
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Post by notagoodname on Dec 6, 2006 19:12:16 GMT -5
I've been playing a lot of epics lately and i have to say Issabella is actually my favourite civ for an epic, especially one where i can get away with expanding and building wealth.
Normal civs that people use Inca's good - fast wonders and more gold +culture granaries - but they lose turns on civic changing. Mali is good - extra gold and turns saved Elizabeth is good - More gold and earlier great people
but... I try Issabella on mirror continents vs the same opponents i use inca/mali/lizzy on and i find i can absolutly annihilate them on all stats when normally it's pretty even. Tons of large healthy and well improved cities building wealth early on is unbeatable for a continents strategy.
Ottomans is another great epic civ, although i still prefer spirituals extra turns, especially on quick game speed.
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Post by crimsonchaos on Dec 6, 2006 19:53:21 GMT -5
Its powerful, but I don't think its too powerful. However, combined with another trait, I'm not sure. It is defiantly something to consider.
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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 7, 2006 1:26:07 GMT -5
As Speaker so eloquently put it:
1) Cheap Workers 2) Cheap Granaries 3) +2 Free Health in every city
Slave out your first cheap Worker, use the overflow and chop/slave your second cheap Worker, use the overflow and regrow while building a cheap Granary. Your Workers are then free to improve your land while your city rebounds from your slaving. You can now expand faster and begin the process all over again in your new cities. This is a huge snowball effect that makes it very hard to compete with Expansive civs.
*Something* has to give ... perhaps removing the cheap Granary a la Financial losing the cheap Bank would be appropriate. Or reducing the Worker production bonus. Or something else. Regardless, Expansive is now the hands down best trait in Ancient, Classical, and Medieval ... it finally starts seeing some balance in Renaissance and beyond because of free Granaries and population in new cities.
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Post by Speaker on Dec 7, 2006 1:56:21 GMT -5
The core of the CIV model has always been the food/growth model. With Expansionistic civs getting a bonus to the food/growth model in three different ways (to which Mookie refers above), we are seeing a cascade effect that reaches all areas (mfg, gnp, power). Isabella is by far the best MP civ now. She is a strong choice in any era, any game type, any situation. Case in point, in the past few weeks I have picked Isabella in Ancient, Classical, Medieval, Renaissance, Industrial, and Future games. And I would have picked her in Modern if I had played that era!
I am thinking changing the Granary bonus to a bonus on Aqueducts would even things out. Even that might be too powerful however, with Expansive Civs getting an easy +4 health.
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Post by smatt834 on Dec 7, 2006 4:30:21 GMT -5
have to say i agree with mook and speaker here :0 and i think the language of snowball effect best sums up this trait. You gotta stop the rolling ASAP or the ball will become to much to stop at all.
i would disagree maybe about slaving that first worker. i just make one in 4 or 5 turns when i grow to 2 and chop the second which gives me my carry over into the granery. (from shaka persective...not spiritual spain.)
So far i have found Shaka to be near impossible to beat if a skilled player is behind the civ.
But do not worry for I have found the Impi weakness.
Weakness #1 If Shaka/Isabella has no metals or horses he/she won't win. So if you host a game and someone picks expansive civ...pick the most unbalanced map and maybe they won't get resources.
Weakness #2 Skirmishers......at least 6.....make them fast and choke EARLY
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Post by willburn on Dec 7, 2006 5:32:55 GMT -5
Yup agree. Mali can stop the snowball if it chokes zulu with skirmishers. Others can too if they can outproduce early and choke zulu. But if you cant choke him he will be a beast for sure. One worker faster means one resource faster, means one settler faster means more defence faster, means more workers faster means more cities faster... The snowball is rolling and rolling.... (the nasty part is slaving workers then getting graneries to grow up quick again..while hooking up food yikes..)
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Post by tamijo on Dec 7, 2006 9:44:55 GMT -5
Yup Zulu is too overpowered in anc, Agg. may not be the best, butwow that unit is evil If you dont get your metal fast like hell, y are dead.
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Post by tamijo on Dec 7, 2006 9:51:05 GMT -5
tommynt(150) defeated God(132) tommynt(141) defeated Feyyaz-Turkey(97) tommynt(119) defeated tamijo(124) tommynt(119) defeated Namejs(145) tommynt(120) defeated Willburn(7) tommynt(63) defeated styggestygge(103) tommynt(63) defeated [JFF]Bantams(132)
I wonder how many made is til the end in this one tommynt with Zulu - on my left, (with no metal/horse before 3th city, so never got the chance to hook that)
I would prob. have got killed anyways, but this was a slaughterhouse, uuuuuuhhh blod all over my screen was scary !!!!
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Post by yilar on Dec 7, 2006 9:54:45 GMT -5
Expansive too powerfull? I don't think so. Expansive being on civs with great uu or other great trait is too powerfull though. If you look at the reality you will see that only 3 exp leaders are played regularly, Bismark, Shaka and Isabella. Bis because he has Ind aswell, meaning cheap forges and wonders. Shaka because of the early rush with impis that is a pretty damn good uu. Isabella has spi, one of the best mp traits, and of course the super conquistador that defeats pikes and gets defensive bonus as the only knight type in the game. What we need to do is shuffle the exp traits to weak leaders such as Frederick, Victoria and Wang Kon.
Btw, mookie exp doesnt get cheaper workers, they are still 40 hammers. Exp trait gives you 50% more hammers to worker production just like bureaucracy does with everything.
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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 7, 2006 10:42:21 GMT -5
Btw, mookie exp doesnt get cheaper workers, they are still 40 hammers. Exp trait gives you 50% more hammers to worker production just like bureaucracy does with everything. I know it's not "cheap" Workers or "cheap" Granaries, it's just an easier word to use than "quicker to build" or "production bonus" or whatever .
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