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Post by MMV on Oct 29, 2006 20:21:10 GMT -5
as a side note?
mgt "won" the battle for his exploit from his opponents and got his loss reports as he stated he wanted so many times earlier in this thread.
CONSEQUENTLY, he should now suffer an "appropriate" posting ban and a small ladder suspension for not only misusing this forum as a "public court of oppinion" but for also coming BACK to gloat about it.
That IS a specific forum rule (that he cannot exploit)
He WINS his battle and get's his reports - but he loses the war and suffers small suspensions/bans from both here in the forum on the ladder for both creating a forum thread and using it to for an admin issue pending process.
BRAVO to the opponents that were forced to report for FOLLOWING the forum rules by not posting in mgt's "public court of oppinion"
(Kind of like a GUILTY VERDICT to the victims of his "game" by the admins but their punishment is suspended)
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Post by MMV on Oct 29, 2006 20:25:33 GMT -5
I CERTAINLY hope that someone I'm in a game with does the "no notice/long-term afk" thing
I know EXACTLY what to do in response and certainly hope others think of the same thing
aw CRAP, wouldn't work for me, I NEVER drop, darnit'all ! ! !
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Post by zzZhenon on Oct 29, 2006 20:29:23 GMT -5
I think everyone has a right to request a rehost. Obviously all players agreed (except the afk person). As long as they waited 10 minutes for MGT in the lobby before re-launching the game.
If I ever suspect someone of being AFK for a long period of time, I'm not above purposefully dropping and claiming that I can't connect until I get a rehost. One sheisty act for another.
I truly hope this is a one-time thing and that this "loophole" in the rules will be filled in.
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Post by miserymachine on Oct 29, 2006 21:27:52 GMT -5
Oh, my bad. MrGameTheory wasn't bluffing when he threatened that he was the most influential player in civ4 and had the admins in his pocket. If this is how things always work here it is no wonder in my few skims all I see is people bagging the admins and showing no respect for the leadership or for each other at all, and as the concept of respecting your fellow gamers has NO value placed on it here, it is no wonder that it then translates into the gameplay and the people of influence are so bewilderingly rude and obnoxious in turn. Congratulations on a grand sacrifice to the God of Law. Now you can drink of his fruit and reap more of his rewards and be sure that everyone here will follow the spirit of the rules you have so blindly laid out. i.e. Everybody note if it happens to you the correct procedure is for one player to pull out their cable lead without discussion thus forcing a "genuine" reload, trumping one bit of bad sportsmanship with another. You understand of course he is speaking for everyone here including the people who agree with the ruling. I say again, congratulations on another grand precedent carefully considered to propogate equality, respect and fair play as befit any successful competition Unrelated note - need to make a correction about Longhorn. Instead, read as: I plough through longhorn first with help from Pangea and though he fights us with the brilliance of Alexander the Great and spectactular masculine magnitude of Ares and Mars combined, he falls against overwhelming odds that Odin himself could not have contended. RE: Elites. I mean to term to be as it seems well understood on this forum - the incestuous tribe who play inordinate amounts of hours and maintain a prescence within the top 20. To be counted as an elite you need to wear your rank within your underpants and demonstrate it's veracity by refusing to share it, putting your package above the value of things like respect and having fun playing the game. i.e. *you are not one of the elite if you have never left a teamer after the teams were picked as placing the fun of playing Civ above your rank disqualifies you from the club. *you are not one of the elite if you havn't denied the enemy team of a willing sub because doing so places the fun of playing the game above the need to win at any cost. *you are not one of the elite if you have never paused a game early on demanding a scrap for whatever anal reasons you can produce to get out of a start they may increase the risk of damage to your rank. *you are not one of the elite if havn't abused someone for outplaying you. Even worse, you definately cannot be elite if you don't accept the premise that anyone who did beat you was obviously lucky and/or cheated. Elite as used in this ladder by every post I have seen is obviously a derogatory term and clearly meant to be. It has very little to do with skill, and even less to do with community, leadership, gaming, and especially respect. It's all about self. Finished with my rants. Few here see it as sad anyway. I do sincerely wonder how many other MP games people here have played seriously though. I've played many and none had such a layout. Always the top ranked players have been the friendliest and most gracious - confident ambassadors with nothing to prove. Always. Equally, I've never seen the admins pandering to rules lawyers either, always putting community respect and the spirit of the game first. Which might not be appropriate in a court of law, but then I don't know if anyone realises it, but we are not playing for Sheep Stations here... I mean look at his "winning while afk" post again will you, and really. What's the point. Congratulations. MiseryMachine.
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Post by eiffel on Oct 29, 2006 21:56:40 GMT -5
Well, MrGT behavior is worth some days in the box and he gets free undue reports... for what it's worth, I don't support this decision at all ;D I don't even get why the rest of the players behavior would be worse. I would've have done exactly the same and would do it again if a player goes afk like this. This is purely a quit and should be considered as is. Telling MrGT that he's right for quitting, can't believe it You need 5 min break ? ask for a pause... You go afk for almost 2 hours without notice ? Go and play WOW...
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Post by Necrominousss on Oct 29, 2006 22:19:44 GMT -5
Very hard call. I like the decision, I think.
If I discover a neighbor is AFK the last thing I would do is fake a drop and try to get a reload. I would kill'em, eat'em, and pick my teeth with his bones.
Seriously, how bad does a player have to be to not be able to kill a uncontrolled civ. When he's dead the players, in the game, no longer need to wait for him. If I was next to him, that game, this thread would have never been started. MGT would have came back after his delightful meal to find his civ had become a graveyard.
MMV, how can not making anymore cities and not controlling your units be considered an exploit. You don't make much sense to me most of the time.
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Post by DrShot on Oct 29, 2006 22:30:34 GMT -5
Whats the big deal. I just got out of a brief match with MrGameHero a moment ago. Ok, so I insulted him simply by moving a regular chariot to a hill before he could get it with a spear. Obviously i had to have used an automated move, as he quickly made clear, and his feelings about me for doing so. Forbid the notion that someone got the jump on MrWonderful. Not much later he dropped from the game. We waited. We waited some more. We discussed subs, to no avail I mentioned a meatball sub would be suitable. While we waited further someone mentioned that he was in the lobby 'now'. shortly thereafter he was gone again. So, we waited. We waited some more and FOUND a sub! Not so fast, MrGamen00b had put a pass word on his civ in a TEAM GAME preventing any substitutions, what foresite. Eventually we were graced with his presence and beckoned to return (from the lobby) for a reload. He wanted to play again it seemed. Ok, np, with one of their players having already reported we figured we could rehost. Well, guess what - all but one knucklehead checked in... We waited. Then we left, about 30 mins had passed since the initial drop, 20 before we reloaded. After all of that I , likely nonone , knows why, where or for what reason sour or not MGT was not there. A real class act in my book, still. I do not lower myself to create a no play list, I think it is goofy. I imagine I could save a lot of headaches if I started.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Oct 29, 2006 22:51:00 GMT -5
enforceable idea? when a player has NOT announced he will be going " afk for a few, sorry" and it's realized that someone just WENT AFK for an extended period without telling anyone - when this happens? 10 ten turns go by and the afk player has not responded to posts/in game queries; vote is made, screen shot is taken to forward to admins, and game is an automatic reload. (I chose the number of turns - 10 - figuring anyhing less than that could POSSIBLY be within the current "ten minute rule") Although the ruling went in the afk's favor for this one, it was STILL an intentional exploit, but I do understand the ruling and accept it (it's always this way on a "first time game exploit") (I'm sure that next time there is an extended AFK player, no one would THINK of dropping on their own causing a reload without telling anyone, so it could be "exploited" BACK to the longterm AFK player, lol) Should there BE a new rule?? Nah, don't think so this "exploit" has a backlash (10 minute wait/one drop rule) on the offender as LONG AS IT'S NOT DISCUSSED IN THE GAME! I appreciate your idea MMV unlike others here that know how to do my job better than me apparently, but offer no solutions. Unfortunately, even a screenshot doesn't prove that the game waited X turns or minutes before making said vote. Any rule we make has to be enforeable without a masive "he said she said" for the non-report Admin.... As it is few people even take screenshots for standard non-reports CS
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Post by Canucksoldier on Oct 29, 2006 22:53:28 GMT -5
And while I agree that MGT's post are in poor taste, I can hardly punish someone for gloating, that would cast a rather wide net around here, so be careful what you wish for.
CS
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Post by MMV on Oct 29, 2006 22:21:41 GMT -5
well then........... do it JUST BECAUSE, OK OK? ROFL!
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Post by MMV on Oct 29, 2006 22:33:41 GMT -5
Whats the big deal, yada yada yada ** edited not to change words or minimize what DS posted, but only for the purpose of brevity** After all of that I , likely nonone , knows why, where or for what reason sour or not MGT was not there. A real class act in my book, still. I do not lower myself to create a no play list, I think it is goofy. I imagine I could save a lot of headaches if I started. I must agree with the good Doctor here and SINCERELY hope that ALL who experience a game similar to what he experienced waits the 24 hour period and each and everyone file a "non-report" to a game quitter like that. As I posted earlier, the one who so brazenly bragged of his exploit will QUICKLY see it used against him. Ain't it COOOOOOOOOL???
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Post by miserymachine on Oct 29, 2006 23:13:01 GMT -5
I appreciate your idea MMV unlike others here that know how to do my job better than me apparently, but offer no solutions. Unfortunately, even a screenshot doesn't prove that the game waited X turns or minutes before making said vote. Any rule we make has to be enforeable without a masive "he said she said" for the non-report Admin.... As it is few people even take screenshots for standard non-reports CS I designed, encoded and managed ladders for Age of Kings (TC), Rise of Nations, Empire Earth, Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds and Age of Mythology. Not small stuff, my AoK ladder clocked over 50,000 actual games with the ladder ranks actually directly reflecting skill. I had put in a rule that dealt with potential MgTs to come along: However, as the highest ranked players were all very friendly and respectful, I never once had to ban a single player from the 1500 or so that played. Leaving the computer for 1.5 hrs midgame? Whatever. stuff comes up and sometimes you have to leave. You take a risk going afk but would anyone seriously be SO ridiculous as to argue that going afk for 90 minutes and expecting anything is IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER playing by the spirit of the rules? You need an avenue for common sense. However, you DO have avenues for common sense. Excluding the straight ruling: And straight rulings like this - directly applicable to MGT who confesses brunch was the emergency: you also bothered to put in clauses like this which apply as well: Players like MgT, who someone even posted above here, another inicident even just today. So with all these rules why even bother to have: and say things like: and finally: THE SPIRIT of these rules as written is VERY ULTRA CLEARLY aimed at protecting people who drop due to problems outside of their control, and to protect people from quitters. HOW can someone get around these rules? Easy, don't quit, just open a new window and do something else. Or go and watch a movie, or have som brunch. Doesn't matter. All that matters to get around them if you don't feel like playing anymore IS NOT TO LOG OFF BUT TO GO AFK. BUT, of course, the failure with that EXPLOIT/CHEAT is that it is obvious. Obvious to all the players, as indeed it clearly was here. You can interpret and focus on many rules for making rulings such as this one you have made here. You have focuses on the letter of some and disregarded all of the above, including most importantly the obvious and undeniable reality that MgT is no way whatsoever respecting the spirit of the rules, and is simply exploiting the rules by not retiring to get his 90 minute brunch, but staying in game. It doesn't get any more clear. So yes, in this specific instance, you are being played like a violin, and bewilderingly supporting the guy you KNOW is doing the wrong thing, penalising the others (of which one or two might quit under reasonable assumption of an unfair bias). So yes, being as clear-cut as it is, I don't say I can do a better job with this ruling, I say a monkey can do a better job. I totally respect what you guys do, but I don't respect your capacity to make objective judgements or reason anymore, and privately question the possibility of corruption through bias. You want a suggestion? What's done is done. But put MGT in the box for a month for treating the admins like a pack of monkeys and treating the players like garbage and treating the spirit of the ladder with total contempt. Couple with that a warning that he has used up all the good graces he is going to get, and any further incidences will see him banned from both the ladder and the forum (such as that which DrShot outlines). MiseryMachine.
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Post by zzZhenon on Oct 29, 2006 23:24:28 GMT -5
Very hard call. I like the decision, I think. If I discover a neighbor is AFK the last thing I would do is fake a drop and try to get a reload. I would kill'em, eat'em, and pick my teeth with his bones. Seriously, how bad does a player have to be to not be able to kill a uncontrolled civ. When he's dead the players, in the game, no longer need to wait for him. If I was next to him, that game, this thread would have never been started. MGT would have came back after his delightful meal to find his civ had become a graveyard. MMV, how can not making anymore cities and not controlling your units be considered an exploit. You don't make much sense to me most of the time. You don't win many ctons do you? Don't waste time killing people if it ain't necessary.
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Post by ironclad on Oct 29, 2006 23:27:34 GMT -5
I would go pillage the cottages free gold !
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Post by Canucksoldier on Oct 29, 2006 23:47:29 GMT -5
I appreciate your idea MMV unlike others here that know how to do my job better than me apparently, but offer no solutions. Unfortunately, even a screenshot doesn't prove that the game waited X turns or minutes before making said vote. Any rule we make has to be enforeable without a masive "he said she said" for the non-report Admin.... As it is few people even take screenshots for standard non-reports CS I designed, encoded and managed ladders for Age of Kings (TC), Rise of Nations, Empire Earth, Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds and Age of Mythology. Not small stuff, my AoK ladder clocked over 50,000 actual games with the ladder ranks actually directly reflecting skill. I had put in a rule that dealt with potential MgTs to come along: However, as the highest ranked players were all very friendly and respectful, I never once had to ban a single player from the 1500 or so that played. Leaving the computer for 1.5 hrs midgame? Whatever. stuff comes up and sometimes you have to leave. You take a risk going afk but would anyone seriously be SO ridiculous as to argue that going afk for 90 minutes and expecting anything is IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER playing by the spirit of the rules? You need an avenue for common sense. However, you DO have avenues for common sense. Excluding the straight ruling: And straight rulings like this - directly applicable to MGT who confesses brunch was the emergency: you also bothered to put in clauses like this which apply as well: Players like MgT, who someone even posted above here, another inicident even just today. So with all these rules why even bother to have: and say things like: and finally: THE SPIRIT of these rules as written is VERY ULTRA CLEARLY aimed at protecting people who drop due to problems outside of their control, and to protect people from quitters. HOW can someone get around these rules? Easy, don't quit, just open a new window and do something else. Or go and watch a movie, or have som brunch. Doesn't matter. All that matters to get around them if you don't feel like playing anymore IS NOT TO LOG OFF BUT TO GO AFK. BUT, of course, the failure with that EXPLOIT/CHEAT is that it is obvious. Obvious to all the players, as indeed it clearly was here. You can interpret and focus on many rules for making rulings such as this one you have made here. You have focuses on the letter of some and disregarded all of the above, including most importantly the obvious and undeniable reality that MgT is no way whatsoever respecting the spirit of the rules, and is simply exploiting the rules by not retiring to get his 90 minute brunch, but staying in game. It doesn't get any more clear. So yes, in this specific instance, you are being played like a violin, and bewilderingly supporting the guy you KNOW is doing the wrong thing, penalising the others (of which one or two might quit under reasonable assumption of an unfair bias). So yes, being as clear-cut as it is, I don't say I can do a better job with this ruling, I say a monkey can do a better job. I totally respect what you guys do, but I don't respect your capacity to make objective judgements or reason anymore, and privately question the possibility of corruption through bias. You want a suggestion? What's done is done. But put MGT in the box for a month for treating the admins like a pack of monkeys and treating the players like garbage and treating the spirit of the ladder with total contempt. Couple with that a warning that he has used up all the good graces he is going to get, and any further incidences will see him banned from both the ladder and the forum (such as that which DrShot outlines). MiseryMachine. As you have stated in your long post, MGT did not break any of those rules. Did he break the spirit of them? Perhaps, but punishing him for that is a pandora's box that you may want to open but I do not. As soon as we start making judgement calls on what is in the spirit of the rules and what is not I'm sure that we will kill the ladder faster than letting one player "play us like a violin" on one occasion. As in most things on this ladder, the community will decide via peer presure what is exceptable and what is not, more so than all the written rules combined. And that is were I think this issue is best placed. We are looking at a specific rule but none may ever come that is enforceable, but you can be guarenteed that a future incident of this nature that is strongly supported by several different reliable sources will be the target of our good sportmenship rules, and the perpetrator will not like the outcome. CS
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Post by Necrominousss on Oct 29, 2006 23:57:15 GMT -5
Very hard call. I like the decision, I think. If I discover a neighbor is AFK the last thing I would do is fake a drop and try to get a reload. I would kill'em, eat'em, and pick my teeth with his bones. Seriously, how bad does a player have to be to not be able to kill a uncontrolled civ. When he's dead the players, in the game, no longer need to wait for him. If I was next to him, that game, this thread would have never been started. MGT would have came back after his delightful meal to find his civ had become a graveyard. MMV, how can not making anymore cities and not controlling your units be considered an exploit. You don't make much sense to me most of the time. You don't win many ctons do you? Don't waste time killing people if it ain't necessary. I guess you win by planting a few cities and building a wonder or 2 and sit back and admire how good you play. Oh, your gooooooood!
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Post by notagoodname on Oct 30, 2006 0:41:30 GMT -5
I know I am not in 'the club'. I still got booted from the teamer only 4 days because I'm 'nobody', despite my stats which many people consider totally worthless except rank, which I have never had and never will because I don't play often enough. I am by no means the best player, but I am actually proud of my stats and feel I have earned the right not to be booted for fear of bad play. Nah that kinda stuff happens even if you are in the club, seriously Anyway i will vouch for you being a good player misery (you've kicked my arse enough time for me to know). I like the elites you mention and i consider them friends. It's true, they do make excuses, in fact i tease missladyluck for doing so (even if he really did have a newbie teammate ). It isn't a big deal though as long as they report. As for calling for gametheory to be boxed, nah. If the games turn timer went too slowly that isn't his fault.
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 30, 2006 1:17:43 GMT -5
I know I am not in 'the club'. I still got booted from the teamer only 4 days because I'm 'nobody', despite my stats which many people consider totally worthless except rank, which I have never had and never will because I don't play often enough. I am by no means the best player, but I am actually proud of my stats and feel I have earned the right not to be booted for fear of bad play. Nah that kinda stuff happens even if you are in the club, seriously Anyway i will vouch for you being a good player misery (you've kicked my arse enough time for me to know). I like the elites you mention and i consider them friends. It's true, they do make excuses, in fact i tease missladyluck for doing so (even if he really did have a newbie teammate ). It isn't a big deal though as long as they report. As for calling for gametheory to be boxed, nah. If the games turn timer went too slowly that isn't his fault. Like you Nota I get on with these guys pretty good as a rule. But I wouldn't excuse their behaviour at times (it might be unfair to single these guys out, cos they're not the only ones). Quite a few l33ts will not say gg, congratulate u on the way u played, or even acknowledge any good play on your behalf. There is also a lot of blasting of fellow teammates which I find totally inappropriate (OK he plays bad - making him feel like a piece of sh1t won't make him play better). And the way some players feel they are always cheated in the RNG or always double teamed makes me wanna wretch. All this stuff makes Civ a lot less enjoyable for me. It's just a game, it's just fun. Yeah I wanna win, but if I don't it really doesn't matter. Well having said that, it's not just l33ts some shoddy players display this behaviour as well.
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Post by zzZhenon on Oct 30, 2006 2:24:34 GMT -5
You don't win many ctons do you? Don't waste time killing people if it ain't necessary. I guess you win by planting a few cities and building a wonder or 2 and sit back and admire how good you play. Oh, your gooooooood! Sadly that's what ctons are: buildfests. If I want kills I'll play a teamer or host a killer cton (those are fun!).
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Post by Necrominousss on Oct 30, 2006 3:56:45 GMT -5
Your clueless
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