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Post by horizon on Apr 11, 2006 7:41:53 GMT -5
Well before i begin if some one else has already discovered this, the i shouldnt take credit for it but i've found a way past waiting 7 seconds to attack with a stack. Ok this technique isn't quite as efficient as the double move in C3C but i think it adds a new dimension to attacking, and seeing its pretty easy to defend in this game i think maybe it gives attackers more options. Unlike some people think they discover great new "theories" but can't tell the rest of the community i shall continue even if only for the people that didn't already know this... Ok firstly, if the last move you take is to move you stack and the timer runs out, you will see that your unable to move any units till the delay times out and you can move again, one way round this is to move and highlight a unit that hasnt moved or was moved before the seven second countdown started. This allows you to move/work any units apart from your stack, that carries the delay. Well if you move your stack onto a Unit that hasnt taken its turn with 1 second to go before the timer rusn out and highlight this unit, as soon as the next turn starts hold down "alt" and move the whole stack instantly, i've been messing around with this and have found you can move this stack to attack or move very very quickly, it even beats the automoves if u time right. This works very well with units which have two for movement ie. horse archers, knights, cavs etc. as it gives you more scope with ur attacking. The only draw back is that you need to move onto a unit that still carries its movement as the turn ends. if you have defensive units sitting on hills and fortify you can use these units to move onto and move off quickly withou person being able to reinforce, even if theres a difference in the level of movement you can still mvce the remainder of the units that have the movement left ie. I move horse archers onto archers on hill, i select archers end of turn, using "alt" move whole stack in one direction, the horse archers should still be able to move one more while archer is left behind. This might give a new dimension to france in renaissance? Or ways to attack with cavalry? or a new dimension to trying to keep sentaries around enamy land in all eras I havnt played around with it enough in game situations, but another thing to think about
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Post by Elledge on Apr 11, 2006 9:12:16 GMT -5
Cute trick, but in reality I wonder how much of a difference it will make. It's pretty tough to play Where's Waldo with a stack that moves in with 7 seconds left on the clock and have enough presence of mind to do more than maybe move an extra defender into the city.
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Post by MMV on Apr 11, 2006 10:51:09 GMT -5
Sorry, I've never experienced any type of 7 second delay
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Post by salqadri on Apr 11, 2006 15:38:02 GMT -5
lol MMV.
Interesting information horizon; thanks.
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Post by eiffel on Apr 11, 2006 18:47:16 GMT -5
Oh, does that really works ? After numpad trick, another trick that can lead to an unfair kill... hope most will read this thread ;D
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Post by markweston on Apr 12, 2006 7:56:59 GMT -5
Not to worry Eiffel, this looks more likely to benefit the reinforcing defender than the double-moving attacker.
As most players try to double-move from out of sight, they're not very likely to have a unit in place with movement points unused sitting in the right place. If they try to move one into place in advance, the defender gets a whole turn to kill it.
Thank God. The idea of double-moves with no delay is a little sick. As for the defenders' advantages; well yes they obviously exist, but that doesn't stop most team games ending early due to player elimination.
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Post by tommynt on Apr 12, 2006 9:38:18 GMT -5
hm, selecting the right unit from that new stack after moving might take 6 sec aswell - i doubt it s a real advantage for defender aswell - as defender facing a big doublemoving stack u ger often bit nervous and dont do right thing maybe - dont select right unit.
Oh well another discovered bug/exploit - well done - now get firaxis to work on it
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Post by mrgametheory on Apr 12, 2006 11:10:16 GMT -5
First off, this is a pretty big find and people just dont "see" its potential yet.
Second off, This is in fact an "Exploit" and not a loophole in the strategy/balance structure of the game. I don't use exploits, but due to the tragedy of the commons, I fear that many will use this one and this is going to dramatically affect the front line warfare of the game to the advantage of the attacker ofcourse.
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Post by MMV on Apr 12, 2006 13:16:37 GMT -5
Sorry, I still don't "get" this 7 second delay thing - with 2 seconds left, I move my stack - and at the beginning of the next turn, I just mouse-click and move it again.
is the delay caused by the keypad??
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Post by Tony on Apr 12, 2006 13:26:43 GMT -5
Yeah it does work, ive seen it work.
Advantage attacker IMO
EDIT:: But i havnt tested it out too much tho
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Post by Avogadro on Apr 12, 2006 14:17:05 GMT -5
No MMV, If you move a unit 2 seconds before turn end, you cannot move it for 5 seconds beginning of next turn. This was done to counter the old double move aspect of the game.
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Post by salqadri on Apr 12, 2006 15:46:16 GMT -5
The main advantage of this trick is:
You have a huge fast-moving stack and u dont want it cannoned down to smitherines before attack, so you have another smaller stack next to city. Thats where I think such a double move will be useful. Can indeed potentially lead to people making use of it, but seems a little tricky nonetheless; will require some mouse-clicking, keyboard-pressing, death-defying (where did this come from) skills.
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Post by horizon on Apr 12, 2006 16:05:53 GMT -5
Tommy:
You move stak on to the unit, you highlight this unit at the end of the turn, its the only unit that can move so no looking for the unit, its highlighted you have "alt" pressed as soon as the new turn arrive you just click in the direction, it takes a millisecond not 6 seconds.
I think it helps the attacker especially if you dont want to be hit by catapults like salq said .... i guess means u need a good road network all over your land
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Post by tommynt on Apr 12, 2006 16:19:49 GMT -5
oh well, sure if done perfectly right it can be a advantage for attacker.
as said another exploit
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Post by Elledge on Apr 12, 2006 17:03:32 GMT -5
So in terms of legality, what's the verdict here?
A) If someone uses this all game, admits it, and wins because of it, is it a fair victory?
B) If not, if someone just does it once in a critical moment, is it a fair victory? If not, what happens? A reload if possible (like if someone switches to a bad civic?)
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Post by tommynt on Apr 12, 2006 17:28:41 GMT -5
I guess it s imposible to make a rule to forbid that - how u wana prove that the guy moved again after 4 sec instead after 7? On other hand this can happen by mistake or just like so, without knowing. Oh i start to think about some situation were there could be really use for thaz - still makes the huge city def bonus usually these fast surprise attacks kinda pointless
about usage of exploits as kind of fair, there are different oppinions i think - some think gifting a preat to a agri civ just to get em gifted back is clever - I allways fell a bit bad when gifting my starting warrior to a agri civ
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Post by swissy on Apr 12, 2006 17:39:13 GMT -5
Sorry, I still don't "get" this 7 second delay thing - with 2 seconds left, I move my stack - and at the beginning of the next turn, I just mouse-click and move it again. is the delay caused by the keypad?? Your thinking of the long march into a built up culture zone. The delay only applies to units that just enter a culture zone. Yes, you can attempt the avoid a defending catapult hit by moving adjacent to the target city with little time left and have no delay, as long as you started the turn in borders. I use this to double move units within borders to set-up strikes at interior cities while avoiding getting counter-attacked from the frontline city.
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Post by Elledge on Apr 12, 2006 17:46:35 GMT -5
I guess it s imposible to make a rule to forbid that - how u wana prove that the guy moved again after 4 sec instead after 7? On other hand this can happen by mistake or just like so, without knowing. Oh i start to think about some situation were there could be really use for thaz - still makes the huge city def bonus usually these fast surprise attacks kinda pointless Yeah, it would be hard to prevent. Immediate city attacks work however (in my exp) in ren games where both sides go for cavs before chemistry, and then for a while cavs really overpower the strongest city defenders (muskets) and can take nuts down pretty easy. So it's not totally rare either.
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Post by MMV on Apr 12, 2006 18:26:22 GMT -5
It's those freakin' immigration laws again - sheeesh!
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Post by SirPartyMan on Apr 12, 2006 19:56:54 GMT -5
Well it sounds like you've discovered a "loophole" in the definition of double move.
I don't see how we can enforce a rule against it - so it's probably going to fall into the category that "it's a bug, but all players can use it, so .... ".
I will give my fellow admins time to state their position on this as well, before we announce anything definitive.
Best, SPM
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