|
Spy's
Sept 14, 2007 13:40:31 GMT -5
Post by Canucksoldier on Sept 14, 2007 13:40:31 GMT -5
Now that we have been playing BTS for over a month, give us your opinion.
CS
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 14, 2007 15:03:08 GMT -5
Post by Lestat on Sept 14, 2007 15:03:08 GMT -5
scouting are fine mission is not skill 100%, ist 60% skill and 40% luck. we have to many luck events in games starting with starting position (occ), negib, resources etc.... now spy to
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 14, 2007 16:01:57 GMT -5
Post by Bantams on Sept 14, 2007 16:01:57 GMT -5
agreed ban using spies in OCC other than for scouting purposes or pissing in lemans water damn spies
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 4:03:08 GMT -5
Post by TheClash on Sept 15, 2007 4:03:08 GMT -5
Spy would be ok if you would have a counter mission like killing a spy or ban them from your border, but without its to unbalanced.
Anyhow i am wondering reading in the German book delivered with the DVD (page 13-headline SPY) , that there should be a mission : " Kill a spy close to you ".
Reading in next headline "Missions" then, this mission isnt mentioned anymore. Did somebody ever used that KILL SPY mission ??
In addition it is mentioned in section " Mission " that there should be a passive mission called " Opponent spy couldnt cross your border ". Did somebody ever used this one ? I never saw this passive mission in the mission window !!!!
Without that possebilities i would prefer passive spy only
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 4:20:28 GMT -5
Post by tommynt on Sept 15, 2007 4:20:28 GMT -5
isnt the scouting part the real bad in spies?
I think the missions themself are fine as they are kinda costly.
I really dont get why people d vote for option 2 but some might not get game mechanics.
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 6:45:59 GMT -5
Post by TheClash on Sept 15, 2007 6:45:59 GMT -5
isnt the scouting part the real bad in spies? I think the missions themself are fine as they are kinda costly. I really dont get why people d vote for option 2 but some might not get game mechanics. well, if you do anc starts ( and no ironman) your only concern might be about a spy scouting. But especially in later eras, starting ren or indu spies could suck if you got a revolt 8 times in a row in your city (also you got spy defense) and your spies always fail. Might be bad luck but it sucks. tommynt: komm von deinem hohen Ross runter, auch andere verstehen das Spiel !
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 7:41:52 GMT -5
Post by Lestat on Sept 15, 2007 7:41:52 GMT -5
isnt the scouting part the real bad in spies? I think the missions themself are fine as they are kinda costly. I really dont get why people d vote for option 2 but some might not get game mechanics. well, if you do anc starts ( and no ironman) your only concern might be about a spy scouting. But especially in later eras, starting ren or indu spies could suck if you got a revolt 8 times in a row in your city (also you got spy defense) and your spies always fail. Might be bad luck but it sucks. tommynt: komm von deinem hohen Ross runter, auch andere verstehen das Spiel ! yaya tommy komm vonhohen
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 8:27:12 GMT -5
Post by Tony on Sept 15, 2007 8:27:12 GMT -5
I think lestat and clash are talking about OCC, using them for missions in 90-110 turn games is hardley an issue.
The most commonly used mission in teamers is breaking a dot of road which is not game breaking.
I think the question is poorly worded, and spies should be considered on an event by event basis.
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 15:10:48 GMT -5
Post by metallian on Sept 15, 2007 15:10:48 GMT -5
isnt the scouting part the real bad in spies? I think the missions themself are fine as they are kinda costly. I really dont get why people d vote for option 2 but some might not get game mechanics. For once me and Tommy agree on something. Setting up a sentry net used to be a skill and taking down an opponents sentry net was the first step for a successful attack. Spies now take this part of the game out. Spies are nothing more than unit for noobs who can't setup a sentry net or use the sentry promotion on their units.
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 16:15:59 GMT -5
Post by Canucksoldier on Sept 15, 2007 16:15:59 GMT -5
I think lestat and clash are talking about OCC, using them for missions in 90-110 turn games is hardley an issue. The most commonly used mission in teamers is breaking a dot of road which is not game breaking. I think the question is poorly worded, and spies should be considered on an event by event basis. Perhaps, but people are free to make any comment about any game in this thread, I was just trying to get a basic feeling about what people think, and in my experience people were complaining about missions more than scouting, but that is why there is an "other" option in the poll. CS
|
|
[KC]Bopper
Worker
The Knight Who Says 'Giddy-Up!'
Posts: 136
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 16:30:20 GMT -5
Post by [KC]Bopper on Sept 15, 2007 16:30:20 GMT -5
I agree completely that spy issues should be considered according to the type of game being played. Also any rules should be easily remembered, able to be monitered and somehow enforceable.
OneCityGames: it's pretty clear that 3 missions should be banned by mutual consent - Incite City Revolt, Influence Civics, and Change Religions. To ban all the other mischievious activities of the spy would be to basically castrate the unit.
All Other Games: let's face it, Spy's are part of the game mechanic. Sure, things worked differently in the past but the dynamics have changed. To create a list of activities that are banned just creates un-needed complications. Do you really want to spend more time in staging debating about how to handle espionage issues? Or would you rather be playing the game? Reporting of the issues that we really don't like is great to pass on to the game devs in hopes that we'll be considered as the game evolves, but let's not get carried away to the point of analyzation/paralyzation.
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 15, 2007 20:32:12 GMT -5
Post by MookieNJ on Sept 15, 2007 20:32:12 GMT -5
isnt the scouting part the real bad in spies? I think the missions themself are fine as they are kinda costly. I really dont get why people d vote for option 2 but some might not get game mechanics. For once me and Tommy agree on something. Setting up a sentry net used to be a skill and taking down an opponents sentry net was the first step for a successful attack. Spies now take this part of the game out. Spies are nothing more than unit for noobs who can't setup a sentry net or use the sentry promotion on their units. +1
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 16, 2007 5:35:02 GMT -5
Post by deyreepher on Sept 16, 2007 5:35:02 GMT -5
Spy would be ok if you would have a counter mission like killing a spy or ban them from your border, but without its to unbalanced. Anyhow i am wondering reading in the German book delivered with the DVD (page 13-headline SPY) , that there should be a mission : " Kill a spy close to you ". Reading in next headline "Missions" then, this mission isnt mentioned anymore. Did somebody ever used that KILL SPY mission ?? In addition it is mentioned in section " Mission " that there should be a passive mission called " Opponent spy couldnt cross your border ". Did somebody ever used this one ? I never saw this passive mission in the mission window !!!! Without that possebilities i would prefer passive spy only During the Beta, Spies were changed on a weekly basis. One week you could kill them with units, another you would have to wait for them to stay still for 1 turn to be discovered before you could kill them. The whole concept of spies just became so convoluted that feature creep was the order of the day. One week they could pillage your tiles, the next they couldn't. Spies were horrible during the beta and instead of axing a really bad idea, they just made them practically invulnerable, because the SP crowd couldn't deal with their own feature request. I thought it was really hilarious. For years, the SP crowd has been exploiting the AI's weakness and then developers finally created something the human player couldn't defeat over the long term. A unit the AI would just send waves upon waves at you that would pillage your resources, improvements, roads, and perform espionage missions against you. The AI was finally good at something against a human player and it was nerfed to an exploit that human players could use against the AI. They would quote history and all that good stuff about spies, but never once did they think about game balance. Let's just say, if we had spies like the ones we have in Civ working at the CIA...the USA would be untouchable and we'd raze all your capitals with double moves from a diagnol angle. Culture bomb or not, fear our Chariot/Horse Archer double movers.
|
|
marr
Worker
Posts: 169
|
Spy's
Sept 16, 2007 21:43:47 GMT -5
Post by marr on Sept 16, 2007 21:43:47 GMT -5
For a Mod called Beyond the Sword, taking into account bombers and airplanes as well as the much loved airship, spies really are hardly a feature in anything past ren when it comes to multiplayer.
When I play a teamer or the very rare ren/ ind/ modern semi cton, I never have an occasion to build a spy. If anything I think the spys can be greatly added to in more missions, or at the least, pick the other players in a teamer who you all want to focus your spy points on instead of the even distribution its at now, that way you just might be able to get a mission off in 65 turn teamer for modern, or the 80 turn teamer in ren, or even the 100 turn teamer in medi.
Other spy mission options affecting a civilization benifiting a teamer of a multiplayer game.
1: More experience needed to get next the Great General. 2: 1/2 movement loss to mounted units for x amount of turns 3: Spy can cause x amount of collateral damage to x units (I know back in the ancient day, poisoning a marching armys water or the few attacking a sleeping army in a quick raid was a big thing. Would also make the spy more viable in a modern era) 4: New promotion for units, anti spy promotion, x chance at catching a spy. 5: Tag one enemy unit with visibility for three turns 6: Science buildings; library, university, National Wonders and Great Wonders such as Great Library, Oxford university etc, all provide a percentage in catching a spy in your city cross and not to your civ. 7: Spies can spread religion to any city, enemy or ally
Over all, spies are good, except in OCC which does count btw. Maybe if buildings had a spy catching bonus, OCC would be improved.
My two cents.
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 16, 2007 22:12:53 GMT -5
Post by tommynt on Sept 16, 2007 22:12:53 GMT -5
dont think that it matter for SP if there s now 1 more way to abuse AI weaknesses - there are 10x more then enough of these possibilities allready.
I really think that spy missions aint bad apart from special game situation - like ironman where some1 lost just bugs his neighbour or occ. In cton for exampole spy missions fit well into game
But the spy part just suckz in teamers
|
|
redphoenix
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 253
|
Spy's
Sept 17, 2007 2:08:31 GMT -5
Post by redphoenix on Sept 17, 2007 2:08:31 GMT -5
dont think that it matter for SP if there s now 1 more way to abuse AI weaknesses - there are 10x more then enough of these possibilities allready. I really think that spy missions aint bad apart from special game situation - like ironman where some1 lost just bugs his neighbour or occ. In cton for exampole spy missions fit well into game But the spy part just suckz in teamers I think tommy has put it quite well. The scouting part is the only real problem, and I guess OCC can be too. the missions cost quite lot to do, and you have to allocate a lot of resources to do them, and get some great spies to get costs down a bit. As it's really hard to ban scouting, just leave spies be. Banning missions don't solve anything, it's the scouting... I think missions are rather cool, like cut roads and stuff, or revolt cities, or steal tech We just need more effective ways to counter spies, thats all. Thats what we should be gunning for, not banning them as that is nearly impossible to control. Whos gonna go through the savegames of all CCC games to make sure spies are not used?
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 17, 2007 7:27:24 GMT -5
Post by 9iron9 on Sept 17, 2007 7:27:24 GMT -5
geforced said he would
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 17, 2007 9:43:07 GMT -5
Post by cryptococcus on Sept 17, 2007 9:43:07 GMT -5
It would be very risky and dumb to use a spy in enemy land during ccc. As it can easily get busted. I personally would still use them in non enemy land as there is no threat of them getting busted
|
|
|
Spy's
Sept 19, 2007 7:50:58 GMT -5
Post by 9iron9 on Sept 19, 2007 7:50:58 GMT -5
ur always dead before alphabet cryp......
|
|
axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
|
Spy's
Sept 21, 2007 10:54:23 GMT -5
Post by axius on Sept 21, 2007 10:54:23 GMT -5
13 votes for banning spies, partially or completely. 7 votes for allowing spies with no restrictions.
And the winner is...
Thanks for the demonstration of how much the community's opinion matters.
|
|