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Post by willburn on Dec 12, 2006 22:55:53 GMT -5
I recently used turning on combat animations in the good faith that this was a legit tactic. This was used a few times during matches some 300-400 days ago. There was a big discussion and people left the game. THats fine, i realised its not a cool move and im sure thats the conclusion of this thread. But i also had discussed this on the ray forums and they said it might be a cheat or not depending on what people felt. So apart from the fact my name is tainted by this allready - maybe something good can come out of the discussion.
A) I suggest that its added a rule on the ladder rules that you cannot play without quick animations on.
Finaly I was called a cheater after this. This really hurt me and yes i know its a game but if there is one thing i truly hate its cheater. I didnt know this was a cheat to be honest, it had been used back in the "good old days" a few times and nobody had bitched in those games. I did everything i could of sportsmanship after this, i offered a scrap of the game and i also told the others that I was sorry once i realised this was considered unapropiate. The thing is im kinda angry they dont even belive me. So I hope this forum post both makes you discuss and add the rule so it wont happen again, and belive me when I say i tought it was a legit tatic.
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Post by Speaker on Dec 12, 2006 23:13:27 GMT -5
I think turning on combat animations at an opportune moment falls into the same category as MGT's brunch. While technically not forbidden by rule, it is not great sportsmanship. I'm not saying you are a bad sport, Willburn, because like you said, this was a valid play a ways ago and you didn't know any better.
Ladder rules cannot cover everything. That's where good sportsmanship comes in, to not push every single edge to win the game at the expense of good faith. While pausing the game without saying anything is not technically against the rules, it does usually annoy people. I thought we went over this after the brunch episode, but I'm glad it got reiterated here.
And finally, let's try to keep a cool head when discussing problems, and we can actually make progress (I fully understand the hypocritical sentiments here, but hey, I can have good intentions right?).
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Post by willburn on Dec 12, 2006 23:18:26 GMT -5
I will just say one more thing: Im really sorry about this guys. Truth be told when i look back at it its bad no matter how I look at it. I should have been clever enough to figure out that this was beyond the "grey" area of civ4 tactics.
The worst part is I remember a future where they used hidden spies to expel landing parties and yelled about that for beeing bad sportsmanship. Ofcours that was a bit worse as the ladder admin lh of that game spesifically said in game that it was an abuse and if they did it again they would be conesquences (and they did) but still its kinda the same when it goes under the bad sportsmanship.
To sum up: Im sorry, i really didnt know - and I feel stupid about the whole thing. Give me a chance to bounce back from this and I will be greatfull.
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Post by notagoodname on Dec 12, 2006 23:47:27 GMT -5
I have seen players pausing at the end of a turn to switch into slavery just after an enemy had moved units into range of cities in the last second. So add pausing without agreement to the list of rules too.
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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 13, 2006 12:57:06 GMT -5
Nobody should ever pause in the last 10 seconds of a turn or the first 10 seconds of a turn. It's just a sneaky way to get more time to think about how to combat a double move.
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Post by knupp on Dec 13, 2006 15:34:33 GMT -5
Nobody should ever pause in the last 10 seconds of a turn or the first 10 seconds of a turn. It's just a sneaky way to get more time to think about how to combat a double move. Technically the same thing could be said against double movers. The only reason people double move is so their opponent has less time to react. Sneaky imo.
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Post by longhorn on Dec 13, 2006 16:25:34 GMT -5
Willburn-
Anyone who knows you realizes you are an honorable player who simply made a bad decision or interpretation of an 'unwritten' rule. I publicly vouch for your honesty and integrity, and no player has anything to worry about when playing with you.
Knupp-
I like where your analogy of the double move is headed and I completely agree. Once again the double move simply exploits a player like me who has a sub-standard graphics card. Additionally the 'double move' has done more to slow the game down than anything else, as its almost fully responsible for noone hitting the enter key in the entire course of a game-- adding HOURS to gameplay. If a double move was NOT possible, games would end much sooner!
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Post by mrgametheory on Dec 13, 2006 16:47:02 GMT -5
I should of Video Taped this whole fiasco yesterday and sold it on TV under the name 'Nerds Gone Wild"
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Post by eiffel on Dec 13, 2006 20:47:36 GMT -5
I agree to what knupp/lh say too, using "in between fast move" is a trick, an exploit that is responsible of then "not ending turns" (just like in civ3, we also had to wait whole turn). But even if it's a trick, i don't think we should forbid it... civ4 is already a game with very little excitation, surprise/fears. If we remove this, we will end up with a mathematics game, making it even more boring (sometimes) But using animations on/off should defitinevly be banned in ladder rules so no one can use it in ladder games and CCC events. We should also list all known tricks for all to know so we don't discover them months later just like this anim off thing or pause with great persons...
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Post by zzZhenon on Dec 13, 2006 22:12:15 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with turning on defensive combat animations, but w/e. Generally this game doesn't come down to who can move the fastest too often... it's usually about who builds up faster, strategizes better, and coordinates attacks with teammates to better effect.
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Post by Avogadro on Dec 13, 2006 22:19:54 GMT -5
Not reflex based? Then how come I'm alwasy the last to move?
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Post by DrShot on Dec 13, 2006 22:28:15 GMT -5
yea, lets file that ploy under n00b-aid...
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Post by tommynt on Dec 14, 2006 4:33:40 GMT -5
Speaker talkin about and judging sportmanship
rofl
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Post by diadem on Dec 14, 2006 11:59:31 GMT -5
As someone who is new to multiplayer this thread has me totally confused. Can someone make a list of these 'exploits', how they work and what they do? And if they are acceptable or not? For example what is wrong with combat animations? If I want to spend half my turn looking at pretty pictures, isn't that my own problem? I'm probably missing something here What is an 'in between fast move'? Something different than a normal fast move? And what's wrong with a double-move? That's just moving 7 seconds before the end of the turn so you can move again on the new turn, right? The game already delays your move, so that's okay, isn't it? I have the impression there are some more tricks out there. Some people are either psychic, or they have a cheat that allows them to move just before I move. I'm not talking fast-moving here at the start of the turn, but moves made at a random point in the middle of a turn. How is it possible for someone to move to the same tile just before me (so my unit dies) several times? I've heard there are tricks to setting units to auto-explore so they'll fast-move themselves at the start of the turn, etc. How do these work? In my experience units set to auto-explore always go into brain-dead mode
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Post by Speaker on Dec 14, 2006 14:25:15 GMT -5
Speaker talkin about and judging sportmanship rofl People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Pot calling the kettle black. Etc, etc.
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Post by willburn on Dec 14, 2006 16:21:54 GMT -5
As someone who is new to multiplayer this thread has me totally confused. Can someone make a list of these 'exploits', how they work and what they do? And if they are acceptable or not? For example what is wrong with combat animations? If I want to spend half my turn looking at pretty pictures, isn't that my own problem? I'm probably missing something here What is an 'in between fast move'? Something different than a normal fast move? And what's wrong with a double-move? That's just moving 7 seconds before the end of the turn so you can move again on the new turn, right? The game already delays your move, so that's okay, isn't it? I have the impression there are some more tricks out there. Some people are either psychic, or they have a cheat that allows them to move just before I move. I'm not talking fast-moving here at the start of the turn, but moves made at a random point in the middle of a turn. How is it possible for someone to move to the same tile just before me (so my unit dies) several times? I've heard there are tricks to setting units to auto-explore so they'll fast-move themselves at the start of the turn, etc. How do these work? In my experience units set to auto-explore always go into brain-dead mode I will give you some: Pause 1 sec before end of turn. Will compleatly f**k up your enemies fast move. Combat animations on: Will buy you lots of time to reinforce units into cities. Move 7 (6?) seconds before end of turn: (this is allowed but still a trick) will remove freeze autoexplore on: Usefull to make sure unit will move away from enemy harm. Best used when you need to divert your attention elsewhere at that turn start Atomate worker: Makes workers flee into cities and they will never loose to fastmoves as long as they move. Gives you roughly 80% chance of them moving as sometimes they stand there looking stupid. Spam numpad until end of turn: Makes you fastmove pretty fast. I think rokkits found a better way but I havent found it yet myself. Turn of combat zoom and autosaves: Makes your fastmoves faster. Ctrl + a: Forces all qued up movements to be executed. Can be used to get a very fast simulatnious move. But beware it doenst work when your next to an enemy. Drop force fastmove: If you que up movemnt then have someone drop all qued up movment on every player will be exectued. I myself consider this a cheat. usefull to kill a city fast. Hill gambit: Try and predict when your opponent moves onto a hill, move there right before him and he will loose a unit Intelligent gambit: Know the fog of war and place units where the opponent most likly will fast move to..this causes him to 2 move into the unit he didnt see and die. Thats allso a reason you should NEVER 2 move into fog of war. Worker bait: Send a worker forward to bait opponent to send a 2 mover to you and be ready to kill it with units before he can delete the worker Unit bait: Same as worker bait only you use units. Worker delay buy time for fastmove: Station Workers in between a city who will be 2 moved, the capture of the worker causes a slight delay that buys you enough time to reinforce the city. 2 move numpad spam: I seldom see peopel do this, only myself - if you spam numpad at the end of teh turn you will move 1 - but if you keep spamming you will move 2 moves before all the others. Annying explorer gambit: Best on classics/medivals, look for archers going by road and try and predict when they move, positon your explorer in front of them on the road and bam they die when they move. The protector: Keep units in reserve and follow units closly and as someone looses a fight once imediatly reinforce with a new unit. This principle applies to captapulted stacks too. Hidden stacks: 19+ units isnt differensiated by looking at the stack, so if your fighting with large numbers you can fake attack with a smaller stack of 20 and main attack with a bigger (ellestar talks about this in a thread im sure he can explain it better). Hill gambit: Archers with 2 hill upgrades can sometimes compleatly take the enemy offguard by 2 moving past defence and into a city. Same goes for woodsman upgrade ofcourse (but most are prepaired for jaguars) Lag delay. Right before end of turn turn download a file from a server that taps you whole internet connection and this will cause the game to go to a halt buying you time for defence. This is really bad form of cheating. Pause abuse great persons: When in pause everytime you add a great person as a specialist will be counted..so click 10 times you got 10 specialist (from one great person....): This obviously is cheating. That was out of the top of my head. Im sure there are plenty more. Edit oh yeah cannot forget this one: Spy expelling, when enemy lands you simply expel his land force. f**ks up attacks compleatly. Considered cheating. (There is no counter for it)
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Post by Random on Dec 14, 2006 17:41:33 GMT -5
I think turning on combat animations at an opportune moment falls into the same category as MGT's brunch. While technically not forbidden by rule, it is not great sportsmanship. I'm not saying you are a bad sport, Willburn, because like you said, this was a valid play a ways ago and you didn't know any better. Ladder rules cannot cover everything. That's where good sportsmanship comes in, to not push every single edge to win the game at the expense of good faith. While pausing the game without saying anything is not technically against the rules, it does usually annoy people. I thought we went over this after the brunch episode, but I'm glad it got reiterated here. And finally, let's try to keep a cool head when discussing problems, and we can actually make progress (I fully understand the hypocritical sentiments here, but hey, I can have good intentions right?). I am sorry to see something like this said... Saying that this is like MGT's Brunch is like compariing potatoes, and apples. I mean we are talking about a preference and someone deciding for himself that he is so good that he does not need to play last 30+ turns of a game. And this error on Willburn's part could harld be called the same, as it only effects the game at the time of an attack, not every damn turn. And I had dropped this, please try not to use the greatest error on admins as a basis for any future decisions. And if Willburn was accused of cheating for this, his opponents are missing the short bus... Go an d look up cheat...
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Post by Bantams on Dec 14, 2006 17:57:12 GMT -5
Speaker talkin about and judging sportmanship rofl People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Pot calling the kettle black. Etc, etc. this little piggy went to market
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Post by Speaker on Dec 14, 2006 18:01:35 GMT -5
I mean we are talking about a preference and someone deciding for himself that he is so good that he does not need to play last 30+ turns of a game. And this error on Willburn's part could harld be called the same, as it only effects the game at the time of an attack, not every damn turn. I'm not quite sure you are understanding why Willburn turned on combat animations. It's not because he enjoyed watching the little avatars fight it out. The point is that it affects the game at the time of the attack... Some might say that precedence is all that we have to go on. Anyways, I don't know what you are talking about when you say "greatest error on admins."
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Post by Random on Dec 14, 2006 18:27:21 GMT -5
What I meant was that the MGT decision was the greatest error in judgement of the admins in my nearly 4 year stint. And I apologize about misunderstanding with the tactic... If I am to understand that he was toggling them on or off at his leisure? If so yes that is not cool and should be ruled illeagal. What is with people anyways, so many seem to look for shortcuts or ways to take an unfair advantage and other ways to exploit instead of being entertained. I mean after all this is supposed to be a game and a game is meant to entertain. I guess the only way people will quit abusing a game is that all men only play with the toy they were born with.
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