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Post by weaksauce on May 17, 2006 15:37:49 GMT -5
i played a game last nite - each team had 1 new player... ours ended up on front line. he immediately lost 1 city (front city, 2nd settler) to longbowman and a camel archer. the opposing team had their new guy buried in the back. but we then micromanage everything our teammate did, and our team eventually won the game anyway. i say dont reload... let them screw up and learn. if he dies and u all report losses, who cares... rank is meaningless anyway. There's a fine line between watching someone screw up and then learning from their mistakes and the same players die day in and day out for 3 months in a row. No matter how much you try to teach them, some of the basics are still missing from their bag of tricks. When it comes to certain individuals, I think I've been patient enough. gimme a break. that's your fault for playing w/ someone who screws up in every single game you've played with the guy for 3 straight months. you know what you're getting urself into to begin with... dont play w/ them then...
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Post by churchill1 on May 17, 2006 20:26:44 GMT -5
lol i would love to know the names of these peeps who screw up every game. hm, i may be somewhere on there. . well on a totally unrelated topic: some peeps complained in this thread that anc cton is silly cos it depends on the res. well i would say that this is not always the case but for sure sometimes. but i just had an extreme example. i played some lucky b***** today. he had persia and it turns out he had horse on the very tile he had settled his cap. i couldnt even see any bronze and iron working was many turns away. heh. any ingenious ideas of how to deal with this? i think even the very best player would be crippled if not killed in this situation.
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Post by tommynt on May 18, 2006 1:17:50 GMT -5
depends how mayn immortals he sends - sure if he sends like 10 - 1 every 2nd turn u r unlikly to win the game - but in ctons people unusually send more then 2 units if they figure they wont kill anyway
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Post by mrsaturn on May 18, 2006 3:56:37 GMT -5
Hi, I'm pretty new here. I've only been part of the ladder for a month, but I've found most of the ladder community to be quite friendly. A bit pushy, some 'noob' calling but no profanity or tirades. Well, not yet anyway.
I too have noticed a lack of variety in games... but I don't really mind. I've joined about 5 ren teamers, and yes the tech order and overall strategy is the same, but they were still a lot of fun. Yes, I was slaughtered in my first 2 games (being the frontline facing an experienced player like tommynt tends to do that), but I learned a lot and my teammates didn't
As for rank, I'm convinced it means close to nothing. I just hit my 50th game (as in 50 total wins and losses) yet I'm ranked in the top 10... mostly because I played in CTONs where people ganged up on the top player (to farm rank, I suppose) or in teamers composed of high ranking people. Skill rating seems more indicative than rank.
And regarding how teamers are made- yes, the top players all know each other and would like to play together... but from my experience they're usually willing to open a few slots to let newer people (like me) play. Granted, you have to prove yourself a little beforehand by playing a few CTONs and such, but the community seems small enough that people notice which players learn from their mistakes, and which players can contribute to the team.
Oh, and I'm the guy weaksauce mentioned that was on the frontline... and as a new player to teamer there is a LOT of pressure being on the frontline, since if you don't know exactly what you're doing you die or are crippled within 30 turns. In the interest of bringing more new people into team games while not putting tons of pressure on them, I support dey's suggestion of swapping positions. In my first 5 ren games, I was stuck up front 4 times...
And about quechas vs longbows- most of the time longbows are on top of a hill or forest, so I don't see how a few 4ish power quechuas can take out a 9 power longbow... you'd just be giving them free xp for upgrades. Either way, the longbows are only a factor in the open for the first 15 turns or so (until knights/camels can dislodge them), where you have more things to worry about like hooking up iron and making pikes. If the longbow is on top of your iron... well... you screwed up then (happened to me once).
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Post by islandia on May 18, 2006 11:42:05 GMT -5
The Quecha help says they get a 100% bonus against archers not archery units - I'm thinking 10-15 quechas to take outa longbow in the open - with those first strikes I'd say a quarter of the quechas don't even damage the longbow.
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Post by tommynt on May 18, 2006 11:56:49 GMT -5
isl they get bonus vs longbows aswell and are a decent backup in a 1-1 longbow fight and espacially good to keep people happy
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Post by MookieNJ on May 18, 2006 12:52:15 GMT -5
Plus Quechas are just so cheap, and with Incas being aggressive, you should be able to add at least cover to them. Use a few cheap Quechas to soften up the Longbow then finish it off with a Longbow of your own.
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Post by Ellestar on May 19, 2006 11:05:42 GMT -5
As for rank, I'm convinced it means close to nothing. I just hit my 50th game (as in 50 total wins and losses) yet I'm ranked in the top 10... mostly because I played in CTONs where people ganged up on the top player (to farm rank, I suppose) or in teamers composed of high ranking people. Skill rating seems more indicative than rank. Actually, skill rating fluctates widely depending on how lucky you was recently. So it's not a good indication as well.
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Post by churchill1 on May 19, 2006 11:53:33 GMT -5
"depends how mayn immortals he sends - sure if he sends like 10 - 1 every 2nd turn u r unlikly to win the game - but in ctons people unusually send more then 2 units if they figure they wont kill anyway"
well being crippled is as good as being killed. who wants to play a game where they have no chance of competing, let alone winning ( i've heard you say something similar yourself). what would u do in this situation? i mean the immortals are gonna pillage the nuts off u.
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Post by Elledge on May 19, 2006 13:13:02 GMT -5
Not to turn this into another "what do stats really mean" discussion, but a mix of win % and skill rating combined with rank as a measure of recent activity is probably the best way to guess at a player's quality. Really as long as their record isn't god-awful you just have to play with them and see though.
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Post by deyreepher on May 19, 2006 13:53:04 GMT -5
As much as the gaming company EA sucks, I do have to say in their multiplayer FPS games, they have great stat records for players. I wish that could be implemented for Civ IV. The only real way to rate a player is by their wins, skill, and if they are a gold member or higher, their personal records against other players, plus your memory and the opinions of people that you know. That's not very reliable data.
It would be nice to know how people fare by era, which civ they use, whether they go random, how many cities they raze, etc.....In other words, it's really a crap shoot with the exception of certain players.
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Post by LeExp on May 24, 2006 9:32:06 GMT -5
I had my own teamates announce to all that I was going to die, doesn't get much brainless than that to me.
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Post by Tony on Jun 11, 2006 13:01:52 GMT -5
OMG i know exactly what tommy is talking, brainless people playing CIV.
I like to play with all sorts of players including newer players, and i really dont care when someone has been out manouverd and dies, dying is part of the game, but what just happen in the teamer i just got out of, was just pure stupidity, that is all you can put it down to.
A guy on my team, had copper in his city and was 7 tiles from inca. so this guy though it would be a nice idea to get a few archers. The inca guy he was up agiast didnt bother choking so this gave him some breathing room, after waiting ages to get a worker out, he didnt think it was a good idea to get his copper hooked, In fact he had waited so long we had reseached Iron and cuz of double expansion Iron was in his borders aswell, which he hooked. At this piont inca sent like 2 axes and planted them in the forest, which he didnt bother holding. He sits back and slaves loads of axes, at this piont civerdan has managed to expand towards him and send him some units, so after losing some units the choke has been handled. During the choke this guy has lost his only 2 workers btw.
The inca guy is not the best and stops applying pressure, so this gives him some more breathing room. So what does he decide to do? build units? build worker? NO and NO.
He lets his capital starve as he has gone into caste system to get a great scientist. His capital is starving as he has 2 scientist with no-food-unworked land. With 50 turns to go we manage to take 1 city from 2 of there civs, even tho this guy has 1-size 1 city at this stage, yes size 1!
As i said before i really dont mind losing or people dying, this is part of the game, but that the hell is this nonsense? Sure everyone makes mistakes and has lapses of concentration, but this was just stpididty, epecially the archer rush on inca.
People are probally thinking new guys must be taught about the game, which is very true. But this guy is on the top 50 of "most games played" list.
I think the bottom line is some people are just too stupid to learn.
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Post by lporiginalg on Jun 11, 2006 18:58:05 GMT -5
well what can I say i thought the last thing inca would expect is an archer rush, and I wanted an acemy in my size 1 city...so sue me.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 11, 2006 19:06:16 GMT -5
Maybe he was working a gold mine!
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Post by Ellestar on Jun 12, 2006 9:34:40 GMT -5
ellsestar well i know some people find ctons fun and some people don't. fair enough. i don't find teamers fun, but if i said they are not fun for everyone, that'd be a pretty arrogan thing to say. and to say they aren't competitive, i'm not sure how you can justify this. sure there are only a few really good players playing cton, but when they play it is very competitive. and unlike some teamers u don't often know about 30 turns in who will win. sure if ur playing a lot of people who aren't very good, then it isn't competitive and it isn't fun. so more good players should play cton. Well, i played 5 singleplayer games and then i started to play ladder ctons. I played like 4 or 5 and become inactive (account was deleted for inactivity). After 6 or so weeks i returned and played several ladder ctons once again. Result was 37/3 win/loss, 19xx skill etc... I don't think it may be called competitive... After that i played almost teamers only. Besides, i don't want to be the target number one because of higher ladder ranking
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Post by Ellestar on Jun 12, 2006 9:37:18 GMT -5
People are probally thinking new guys must be taught about the game, which is very true. But this guy is on the top 50 of "most games played" list. I think the bottom line is some people are just too stupid to learn. Settler AI beats him so he plays teamers instead ;D
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 12, 2006 11:53:24 GMT -5
Result was 37/3 win/loss, 19xx skill etc... I don't think it may be called competitive... After that i played almost teamers only. Besides, i don't want to be the target number one because of higher ladder ranking [/quote] You lost 3. You didn't win them all. Everyone makes this point about the higher ranks and i really don't think there is much truth in it. I think it might be paranoia like the famous guy who expects to be shot every time he walks out of his house. I have a good rank but I have found myself being ridiculously quadruple teamed or anything like this. Even if this did happen it'd be a challenge and it would make ctons much more competitive. So it would be a good thing. Also, there are some really good players playing cton, you just have to catch them at it . EBD and matth. Also Aways 2000, though he doesnt seem to play much anymore. Avrieeee, sebsss, dreddcool, Civilizationed, Knight_owl and more - all know how to play. And finally, I would make this point. The occasional game against a bunch of newbs or no good players is no bad thing: 1. You can work on things in your game, new strategies etc. without having to worry about it costing you the game. 2. You can teach these guys things if they are not arrogant "You can't teach me jack" kinda guys. And this is good for everyone. 3. You might find some hidden talent which is useful for future teamers. And I will repeat my previous point, because this will solve the problem and I would love to see it: More good players should play cton. Not all the time, just sometimes. Get a break from teamers. Ctons are far less intense. They improve different parts of your game and they would be a nice change for you.
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Post by tommynt on Jun 12, 2006 12:45:10 GMT -5
the only challenge in a cton is too kill enough people and lead score far enough to get others to call game instead waiting out these anyoing last 50 turns after catas
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 12, 2006 14:25:40 GMT -5
You guys are not even reading what i say.
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