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Post by MMV on May 2, 2006 12:44:55 GMT -5
While it's good that Hamachi tries to block key Windows vulnerabilities, that doesn't change the fact that being connected to other players over a VPN is fundamentally different to being connected over the internet from behind NAT and a firewall. And call people paranoid as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that worms and viruses exist and are endemic, and that millions of PCs out there are under the control of someone other than their owner. When I went to the Hamachi site I found that their entire security briefing was about how well Hamachi VPN tunnels are protected from outside attack, which is completely beside the point as far as any of us is concerned. It is pretty likely that there'll be a small group of players within the C4P community who unknowingly have something nasty on their PC, and connecting to them this way will increase yoiur chance of catching it. It also seems likely that at some point one of those idiots who likes breaking stuff will join C4P and will find a way to exploit the trust implied in joining a VPN with other players. None of this is intended to be personal criticism Loki. None taken ,but you keep skiping over the part where you can use a software firewall like zonealarm on the VPN tunnel to further protect yourself along with Hamachi's built in security at that point there is little diffrence in security. When ever you forward ports on your router to your pc your exposing yourself system to worms and other nasties and we live with multiple ports open daily just to use the gamespy lobby hamachi can utilize just one of those ports to create a very stable gaming enviroment for civ not to mention the internet is a bigger scarier place then a small vpn community. As for anyone that tries to use Hamachi to cause harm to anothers system we can have several options 1) Report them to the Hamachi admin team and get them banned from the app. 2) Report them to their ISP for abuse which could also result in their isp disconecting them or more. 3) Ban them from the site so they cannot see the games list so they do not know the details to join a game . 4) I am sure I can think of more ,but my point is with a software firewall in the mix Hamachi is no more of a security risk then what we already do to ourselves on a daily basis to use GS. or - just go by the vote, the numbers haven't changed in 3 days.
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Post by loki1023 on May 2, 2006 15:11:26 GMT -5
None taken ,but you keep skiping over the part where you can use a software firewall like zonealarm on the VPN tunnel to further protect yourself along with Hamachi's built in security at that point there is little diffrence in security. When ever you forward ports on your router to your pc your exposing yourself system to worms and other nasties and we live with multiple ports open daily just to use the gamespy lobby hamachi can utilize just one of those ports to create a very stable gaming enviroment for civ not to mention the internet is a bigger scarier place then a small vpn community. As for anyone that tries to use Hamachi to cause harm to anothers system we can have several options 1) Report them to the Hamachi admin team and get them banned from the app. 2) Report them to their ISP for abuse which could also result in their isp disconecting them or more. 3) Ban them from the site so they cannot see the games list so they do not know the details to join a game . 4) I am sure I can think of more ,but my point is with a software firewall in the mix Hamachi is no more of a security risk then what we already do to ourselves on a daily basis to use GS. or - just go by the vote, the numbers haven't changed in 3 days. Maybe the Vote numbers here maybe slugish ,but since this vote was posted the Hamachi C4MP Lobby site has seen 15 new registrations thats a very quick increase in only a few days ... Wonder what would happen if I sent out a newsletter about this vote to the members do you think we could get the vote to change ?
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Post by Elledge on May 2, 2006 17:03:28 GMT -5
1. Can't report anything if your system has been corrupted 2. Can't afford to go out and buy a brand new system after mine has been corrupted. 3. There is no firewall that is a 100% safe and therefore the less you open up your computer the better. This is the worst sort of misinformed computer paranoia there is. All three points are way off-base; at worst, you might have to reformat your hard drive, which is really lousy and unrealistic, but you aren't going to have to spend money on a new computer and you will be perfectly capable of reporting the guy to his ISP or Hamachi. The likelihood of this, incidentally, is microscopic. Do you wash your hands every time you touch a doorknob, too? I don't like Hamachi, but this is a pretty silly reason not to like it.
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Post by loki1023 on May 2, 2006 19:17:40 GMT -5
1. Can't report anything if your system has been corrupted 2. Can't afford to go out and buy a brand new system after mine has been corrupted. 3. There is no firewall that is a 100% safe and therefore the less you open up your computer the better. This is the worst sort of misinformed computer paranoia there is. All three points are way off-base; at worst, you might have to reformat your hard drive, which is really lousy and unrealistic, but you aren't going to have to spend money on a new computer and you will be perfectly capable of reporting the guy to his ISP or Hamachi. The likelihood of this, incidentally, is microscopic. Do you wash your hands every time you touch a doorknob, too? I don't like Hamachi, but this is a pretty silly reason not to like it. Thank You I hate it when people that don't know computers try to sound smart in here or if they know what they are speaking about purposly tell people lies like that. And seriously in the case of #3 your opening your self to the largest security risk every day when you come online with ports forwarded or not on your pc atleast Hamachi has built in security features and can also be firewalled . Further more on your comment with #3 DD firewalls are not 100% safe is semi true as they are only as good as the person using them ,and I have seen many people in GS (some laderites also) recomending people turn them off just to play using the GS lobby or placing themselves in the DMZ on their router that is trully the worst thing any computer user can do as your completly exposing your machine to every other machine on the net at that point ,but people are doing just that to play in the GS lobby . As for my name being Loki the god of mischief some of us like history and mythology the name seemed apropriate for civ
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Post by Avogadro on May 2, 2006 19:46:08 GMT -5
I turn my firewall off. ;D
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Post by Gogf on May 2, 2006 20:55:46 GMT -5
or - just go by the vote, the numbers haven't changed in 3 days. Maybe the Vote numbers here maybe slugish ,but since this vote was posted the Hamachi C4MP Lobby site has seen 15 new registrations thats a very quick increase in only a few days ... Wonder what would happen if I sent out a newsletter about this vote to the members do you think we could get the vote to change ? So because people who hadn't heard about Hamachi decided to sign up at your site to find out more we should assume that Hamachi should be used? As I've said before: it's great that you're working on a solution and we should at least strongly consider this, but your logic seems a little fuzzy here.
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Post by loki1023 on May 2, 2006 21:19:32 GMT -5
Maybe the Vote numbers here maybe slugish ,but since this vote was posted the Hamachi C4MP Lobby site has seen 15 new registrations thats a very quick increase in only a few days ... Wonder what would happen if I sent out a newsletter about this vote to the members do you think we could get the vote to change ? So because people who hadn't heard about Hamachi decided to sign up at your site to find out more we should assume that Hamachi should be used? As I've said before: it's great that you're working on a solution and we should at least strongly consider this, but your logic seems a little fuzzy here. That is not what I was trying to say ,and I said "what if" the simple fact of the matter is there are only 31 votes on this poll that is no where near enough to speak for all the ladder especialy since many here would also use scare tactics just to keep players from using another method other than GS to play. I was merely trying to get the point across that if this vote was exposed to more than just the few people that read these forums who knows what the vote would be ,but by MMV's view those that had not voted do not count so in that same view then the ladder is only trully made up of 31 people then err wait make that 30 as I am not a ladder member atm.
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Post by loki1023 on May 2, 2006 21:50:33 GMT -5
I don't like Hamachi, but this is a pretty silly reason not to like it. Thank You I hate it when people that don't know computers try to sound smart in here or if they know what they are speaking about purposly tell people lies like that. And seriously in the case of #3 your opening your self to the largest security risk every day when you come online with ports forwarded or not on your pc atleast Hamachi has built in security features and can also be firewalled . Further more on your comment with #3 DD firewalls are not 100% safe is semi true as they are only as good as the person using them ,and I have seen many people in GS (some laderites also) recomending people turn them off just to play using the GS lobby or placing themselves in the DMZ on their router that is trully the worst thing any computer user can do as your completly exposing your machine to every other machine on the net at that point ,but people are doing just that to play in the GS lobby . As for my name being Loki the god of mischief some of us like history and mythology the name seemed apropriate for civ Interesting rebutle, just love it when people call me stupid and trying to be smart. Endures me so much to want to agree with them. Not sure how you would consider it misinformed. There are virus's and worms out there that can do just that and top of it the can also link into your system (spyware must be my imagination too) and corrupt your system that way as well. Plus there are new ones being made every day which of course how stupid of me, you both are aware of every one out there and of course the others that are coming out in the near future. Paranoid, can you really blame any one. I have had my system corrupted and a "simple reformat" did not work. Had to take the system down to the local computer repair shop where they had to replace my "Fried" hard drive. Cost, $480. As for the loki comment I made at the end it was just a joke but eh I'm stupid so what would I know. DustyDragoon First off I didn't call YOU stupid and just because you don't know as much as somone in a specific area does not make you stupid ,but what you posted was meant to scare people not to mention software by nature cannot cause hardware damage. As for your fried hard disk I have never seen or heard of such a thing before personaly ,but I did look it up and the closest information I could find from a security site was here and they pretty much brush it off as do most other security experts.
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Post by Elledge on May 3, 2006 2:09:31 GMT -5
Man I am tired of hearing things like this, and I am going to slam into them every time I get a chance to unless their author can defend them. There are virus's and worms out there that can do just that and top of it the can also link into your system (spyware must be my imagination too) and corrupt your system that way as well. Gee, "link" into my system is pretty damn technical. What exactly are these viruses and worms supposed to be doing? No, I'm not, and I didn't say I was. Bullnuts. Pile it high and deep. There isn't a virus on the planet that would do that. I'm guessing it is probably a bald-faced lie, because no hard drive in the universe costs $480. Alternatively, it's possible that you wasted $480 for nothing and didn't even remember what you replaced. I am not reneging on that statement unless you present hard evidence that the above is even possible, much less that it happened. That's exactly the sort of nuts that scares people out of their panties when it comes to computers and keeps them misinformed about how the machines they use daily actually work, and it doesn't have any place in a serious discussion.
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on May 3, 2006 6:44:21 GMT -5
Before, we were discussing Hamachi. Now we're straying into the realm of personal insults.
One is okay. The other is not.
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Post by Elledge on May 3, 2006 8:38:48 GMT -5
Before, we were discussing Hamachi. Now we're straying into the realm of personal insults. One is okay. The other is not. Deal. Just don't like seeing misinformation presented as argument.
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Post by Elledge on May 3, 2006 10:50:40 GMT -5
Special Edition Internal Hard Drives Part# WD800JDDTL Western Digital Caviar Special Edition ,hard drive ,80GB ,ATA-100 more... $66.99 BUY NOW Fujitsu Fujitsu 300 GB Internal Hard Drive 20PK Internal Hard Drives Part# MAT3300NP-20PK 3.5” Hard Drive, Internal, Ultra320 SCSI Interface, 300 GB Storage Capacity, 10,000 RPM, PC compatible, 20PK more... $18,653.99 BUY NOW Is this enough of a range for you, don't forget I was including the service charge. As to the rest think "compressed files" As far as entering anything else don't worry I won't enter another word in here for "fear" I might spread more "lies" I don't understand what point this post is making. If you really want to argue the matter, then feel free to PM me, as it is admittedly off-topic. I am more than happy to debate you.
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Post by loki1023 on May 3, 2006 16:08:48 GMT -5
Nor did I see the point of that last post and as for compressed files that does not mean your drive is fried and in the worst case scenario all you would need to do is fdisk the drive and reformat not replace it . I think you may have been ripped off by that pc repair company ,but don't feel bad if you did they like to pull that crap all the time it's kinda like taking your car in for a simple oil change there is always something else wrong in the end . Anyway I had already pm DD in civ last night and told him I would not take this to a personal level the game and we as a community should not stoop to that level as it just causes infighting and gets us no where in the end. Your opinion is respected and welcomed here DD ,but the simple fact of the matter is viruses by nature are unable to cause hardware damage. I turn my firewall off. ;D Not the best thing in the world to be doing if you want a simple to use firewall to use with civ try zone alarm as you should never leave your system completly open like that.
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Post by Avogadro on May 4, 2006 15:07:35 GMT -5
For us computer illiterate folks...do not firewalls and antiviral software slow down both connection and computer performance? I wonder, why do most beta testers manage to play each other without so many of the issues we see present on the ladder? We had games of 14-16. Is it firewalls? Antiviral? Slow old Comps? noob ps-BTW even if Dusty was "misinformed" to what a virus can do to a piece of hardware, I can tell you he is far form a liar. Always honest and a gentlemen in every sense of the word. To say "baldface lie and Dusty" in the same sentence is "misinformed" in itself.
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Post by loki1023 on May 4, 2006 21:36:42 GMT -5
For us computer illiterate folks...do not firewalls and antiviral software slow down both connection and computer performance? I wonder, why do most beta testers manage to play each other without so many of the issues we see present on the ladder? We had games of 14-16. Is it firewalls? Antiviral? Slow old Comps? noob ps-BTW even if Dusty was "misinformed" to what a virus can do to a piece of hardware, I can tell you he is far form a liar. Always honest and a gentlemen in every sense of the word. To say "baldface lie and Dusty" in the same sentence is "misinformed" in itself. Many software firewalls take up very little cpu and memory usage so they won't affect your pc's performance in any noticable way ,but they do block ports on your network connection that can be used to access your system this can also block applications like civ from getting connections in or out of your system unless you have it setup correctly. I recomend zone alarm free available here it is quite easy to use and will show a pop up box if a unautharzied app is trying to access the internet it will then give you two choices to allow it access or to deny it access to the net Anti virus software can slow your pc down depending on your memory and processor and the actual AV product Mcafee and Nortons are by far the most cpu and memory hogging AV's out there not to mention they usualy bundle a firewall and other crap into their products that most users are unaware of one a side note Trend Micros PCcillin is starting to become bloatware like mcafee and nortons. I recomend a small free av like AVG available at free.grisoft.com/doc/1 it does not bunddle any thing else besides the AV in it's free package and it's quite reliable. Recomended Anti Spyware apps (all Free) Spybot S&D - Nice app and free I usualy install and run the tea timer app for active protection not to mention you can add alot of nuts to a block list with it . MS Antispy - Free and also runs in the background of your system for active protection. ( Adaware SE - free version does not run in the background of your pc ,but it will clear anything it finds off your system. SpywareBlaster 3.5.1 - The program works by blocking the installation of most ActiveX-based spyware, adware, browser hijackers, dialers and other unwanted programs from the user's computer. This approach differs from many other anti-spyware programs, which typically offer the user a possibility to "scan" the memory of the computer and remove the unwanted software, after it has been installed. You can also block alot of nuts on the net using a hosts file I like to use HOSTS File Manager © Version 1.0.1.2 it will download the latests hosts file from www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm this is really simple to use and takes up no resources as it only runs for a minute to check for updates when your pc is rebooted . Other stuff: Peer Guardian : blocks connections via ip address ranges sadly I do not recomend it here as it will block gamespy and many other sites ,but alot of people use it when they are on filesharing networks to block goverment ,educational ,and certain groups like riaa and mpaa. btw you can turn it on plus unblock ips easily with it's gui (Disclaimer I am not supporting filesharing by posting this just giving you the facts) ***** As for why the beta testers may have fewer issues may I ask if they were using GS to start games ? I have noticed that connections become more unstable for everyone when the GS lobby is crowded and since GS is connected to the games to get info like host ping ,map and number of players that could be causing a issue. I imagine most of the beta testers also have newer machines hence less issues due to hardware limitations ,but this does not explain bad peers as thats a network issue. *Persoanly I think 512MB of ram should be the minimum on any machine these days preferably 1 gig as for the cpu 1.5 - 2 ghz min for those having video issues I recomend turning graphics to low and turn the resolution down as far as you can. You can also try the omega drivers on your video card these drivers have been optimized for gaming and other grapics entensive apps. Most of the Beta testers were probably from the US and Canada so that probably meant fewer reroutes between players instead of going through a crap load of routers world wide (yes the internet has routers also ). 99.9% of beta testers were probably broadband users (lag does affect the game considerably). These beta testers likely know how to setup and maintain a network properly ie port forwarding and firewalls. *Note: not all users have access to port forwarding as they could be behind university routers or their isp's (cheap ones) give them a router that is preconfigured and locked so they don't have access to it's advanced functions. That just covers the basics and how large was the beta testing team anyway ? *** Sadly I don't see this being fixed any time soon as belive it's just sad MP coding in civ in general the beta players just had the best possiable enviroment for civ in their tests ,but once you expose the app to everyone world wide there is no such thing as best possiable enviroment as there are just to many variables involved. Hamachi works by trying to create a stable network for civs shakey mp code and thats the only reason it works.
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Post by Avogadro on May 5, 2006 13:51:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the firewall infos, I just may start using them.
As for the testing, unless I get whacked on the fingers...don't know if I'm allowed or accurate. About 200 and 40+ or which where proud ladderites.
We used same lobby as you all but as you mentionned traffic was alot less significant.
You technical, smart civers should contact frankenstein.com or maybe even Fried? Alot of work being a tester, need alot of time and patience. I had little little of both.
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Post by Elledge on May 5, 2006 14:58:43 GMT -5
ps-BTW even if Dusty was "misinformed" to what a virus can do to a piece of hardware, I can tell you he is far form a liar. Always honest and a gentlemen in every sense of the word. To say "baldface lie and Dusty" in the same sentence is "misinformed" in itself. Although I feel like a slow for bringing this back up, two quick words: first, I was really put off by the "bought a hard drive for $480" claim more than the "had to buy a new hard drive" claim, because I've bought a lot of hard drives, and I've never even seen one, not the nicest top-of-the-line retail drive ever, for more than $250. That's why I suspected there was some exaggeration. That in mind, nobody's perfect, and I wanted to apologize for being so aggressive about it. I was pretty out of line calling the guy a liar when I barely even know him, and on reflection I'm sure that whatever the truth of the matter there was no intent to deceive. Sorry for being such a thingywad. Hope you guys can forgive. EDIT: Oh, wow, the profanity filter here is really a piece of work. I am now a "slow" and a "thingywad."
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Post by loki1023 on May 5, 2006 16:01:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the firewall infos, I just may start using them. As for the testing, unless I get whacked on the fingers...don't know if I'm allowed or accurate. About 200 and 40+ or which where proud ladderites. We used same lobby as you all but as you mentionned traffic was alot less significant. You technical, smart civers should contact frankenstein.com or maybe even Fried? Alot of work being a tester, need alot of time and patience. I had little little of both. Hmm only 200 beta testers eh ? thats really not alot especialy if you want to expose the game to as many enviroments as possiable to work out bugs . An open beta would have probably worked out the most bugs ,but then they wouldn't be able to keep things hush hush and slowly release details about the game to keep addicts like us hooked
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Post by Avogadro on May 5, 2006 16:12:19 GMT -5
Well that's my "guesstimate". Canuck and Fried would know more about the numbers. But it is hard to keep good testers as there are crash reports to write, files to send, etc etc. Most think its "cool" to play the game before the others but I can vouch the finish product is more interesting then the beginnings of it
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 6, 2006 0:57:20 GMT -5
Yes having a large variety and number of testers is a good thing, however, getting good testers from the pool of MP players is not so easy. Testing is not exciting and required a higher level of computer literacy than normal. It is not the adrenaline filled ladder game at all. It requires the ability to write detailed and logical reports about test games and provide feedback to the developers, and unfortunately many MPers are not tester material but we don't find this out until they try it CS
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