|
Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 27, 2006 21:20:47 GMT -5
The ladder Admin board is seriously considering making the use of the Virtual Private Networking Software, Hamachi, and offical ladder recommendation. Ergo if we take this step we would highly encourage all game to be played via DirectIP on a Hamachi network. This ofcourse would not be mandatory but I would hope that a critical mass of the ladder would run with this so that it would become a defacto standard, just like using GS Arcade was with C3C.
But I want to hear everyones thoughts, and please encourage your gaming peers to come to the forums and take part in the C4P community.
CS
|
|
|
Post by churchill1 on Apr 27, 2006 22:56:47 GMT -5
In layman's turns, in what ways is hamachi actually better?
I should try it but whilst there are games in gs i dont bother.
|
|
|
Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 27, 2006 23:18:01 GMT -5
In layman's turns, in what ways is hamachi actually better? I should try it but whilst there are games in gs i dont bother. By creating a VPN, Hamachi tunnels threw any firewalls/routers and any other NAT systems that people might have. It assigns a private IP to every user. It's in fact like being on a private LAN, evne though all the players are all over the world. So doing all this it provides Civ4 an "ideal" network to work with. You can read all about it at the tutorial at the Civ4 Hamachi sight and I'm sure Loki can provide more details. civ4vpn.shadowsdominion.com/index.php?n=pages/hamachiCS
|
|
|
Post by loki1023 on Apr 27, 2006 23:51:09 GMT -5
Well you could read the front page on The Hamachi C4MP Lobby Site or directly from hamachi.cc the main site of hamachi ,but I'll list some of it below anyway. As CS pointed out Hamachi is a zero configuration VPN (Virtual Private Network) server / client app that basicly creates a virtual lan over the internet and it can be secured quite easily infact I have covered that in my tutorials. How Hamachi Works ( from hamachi.cc ) Hamachi is a UDP-based virtual private networking system. Its peers utilize the help of a 3rd node called mediation server to locate each other and to boot strap the connection between themselves. The connection itself is direct and once it's established no traffic flows through our servers. Hamachi is not just truly peer-to-peer, it is verifiably secure peer-to-peer. Believe it or not, but we are able to successfully mediate p2p connections in roughly 97% of all cases we dealt with so far (few tens of thousands as of early March 2005). This includes peers residing behind different firewalls or broadband routers (aka NAT devices). It is high-tech and it is really cool The just recently added their own upnp (universal plug and play) code to hamachi that is enabled by default ,but can be turned off easily if you want it off . Anyway most new routers these days come with upnp and it's enabled by default so esentialy hamachi can speak to a upnp enabled router and tell it what ports to open and forward aswell as where for hamachi to operate. Ease of Use (from hamachi.cc ) A special effort went into designing and polishing Hamachi user interface. The result is sleek, simple and intuitive, while still very much functional. Everything you need, nothing you don't. Hamachi software contains no spyware, bannerware or any other -ware unrelated to its purpose. And it never will. ***Trust me when I say it's as easy as most instant messaging apps if not simpler. SIDE NOTE: the free version of Hamachi is limited to 17 people on one network the network owner plus sixteen peers thats just one short of the 18 allowed in civ ,but I don't see that as a big issue. One other thing is there is also a paid version of hamachi if you want to upgrade that offers a few more features the big one is broadband relay which basicly allows people whom have very strict firewall or router settings that they have no control over become good hamachi peers using hamachi servers to relay traffic between them and the other peers you can see a comparison sheet here.
|
|
|
Post by Necrominousss on Apr 28, 2006 1:33:19 GMT -5
Well, I registered at the Hamachi C4MP Lobby. Is that all I need to do or do I need to download anything?
I'll gladly give it Hamachi a try to see if it is an improvement.
But won't players still have to have a good connections to prevent lagging?
|
|
|
Post by Ellestar on Apr 28, 2006 1:54:07 GMT -5
It very well may be the end of the ladder if games will not be hosted in a gamespy lobby. There is a risk that we'll get significantly less new members even compared to a current situation. And old members do leave, you know.
|
|
|
Post by Magzi on Apr 28, 2006 2:04:11 GMT -5
I'm still wary of using it. All my other online games work ok, will Himachi spoil this? Is there a different lobby for Himachi? If so, is this why there are never many ladder games up in the normal game lobby now? I keep giving up trying to get a game these days, I don't have enough time! Yes Ellestar, I agree with you, no newcomer will know where to go for a game.
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on Apr 28, 2006 3:53:08 GMT -5
I have to also agree with Ellestar on this count. Regardless of my own feelings about Hamachi, I think that 95% of the new players get onto the ladder because they step into a ladder game in Gamespy and they get told the web address. If everyone has Hamachi, then obviously nobody is going to want to play on Gamespy, and that means zero publicity.
The only way I can see growth at that point is:
- Through forums like Apolyton and Civfanatics. No idea how successful this would be, most folks seem dedicated to singleplayer.
- Through useful people like Levi who help folks in the lobby spamming advertisements for the ladder site. Would anyone even be hanging out in the lobby doing this, though, if we were all playing on Hamachi?
The other problem is:
- There are going to be new people who have never seen any ladder players play, since they only use Hamachi. Suddenly they get told "Oh, all the best players play at this website, they use this special networking program you have to set up like so." Are they even going to take it seriously and bother installing Hamachi to play ladder?
It's possible that GS players will be so fed up themselves with connection issues that they will happily lap up any suggestion of a workaround through Hamachi and join by the dozens. But it's also possible that it will fizzle and there will never be a new member again. I suspect it would lean toward the latter, but I'm really not sure at all.
Just bringing this issue to the forefront.
|
|
|
Post by thestatguy on Apr 28, 2006 4:59:21 GMT -5
In agreement with Elledge and Ellestar on the "growth equals life" issue. But, then again, perhaps I'm a bit biased from being new. I haven't had too many bad peer issues in MP games, so I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. They've occured on occasion, but no enough to dissuade. I lurked at C4P a few times since buying CIV when it first came out. But, didn't really feel compelled to join until I started playing MP games in the Gamespy lobby to get a feel for how I rated against folks I didn't know. Got tired of the punks who'd quit when the chips were down ... you know the story. And, I began seeing Ladder games. That was the compelling reason I joined. As is probably the case for 95% of the new folks. (Sulla's writeups did sell me also, so there is that.) And, I try to pay it forward by politely directing folks in the Gamespy lobby to this site when the ask the inevitible "what is Ladder play?". I haven't tried Hamachi ... but, I plan to try it out this weekend. If it WOWs me, maybe I'll change my story. Word of mouth could work, but you won't get the day in day out advertising you get when people see the word "Ladder" in game names on gamespy. Then again ... if you are hardcore into CIV, you're likely to find your way here one way or another someday. As for now, I'm skeptical about Hamachi, but I never thought I'd be playing in a MP game versus some kid who swears like a sailor and then runs away when things are going bad saying, "My mom says I've got to quit now." Never get those 90 mins of my life back ... TheStatGuy
|
|
|
Post by Lestat on Apr 28, 2006 6:31:12 GMT -5
Nup... I dont have connetion issues to often. Always is posible that some one crash game in that or on another way.
|
|
|
Post by zerza on Apr 28, 2006 6:54:54 GMT -5
Someone cant connect, 9 times outta 10 they were just in a crashed game and hopped into the next without a restart I voted no btw, I think it will scare off new members. And even some current members. (its hard enough to find a ladder game as it is )
|
|
|
Post by MMV on Apr 28, 2006 8:35:03 GMT -5
Getting IN to a game is no longer a problem for me since the demise of the 1.52 patch.
I still think the "bugs" of a C4 game are mostly created by people with bad connections, people using less than optimum settings in the game itself (animations on, quickmove/combat off), not using low resolution settings, a comp that is less than the recommeded requirements, fueled by TOO many players in a game and a combination of any of the above, etc.
C3 was the same - one can't connect because of a conflict with another; conflict person has to leave so others can get in and arrange for the conflict player to come in last; someone has to restart their comp during a game so there's a long reload process, etc etc etc.
After players are connected and a game begins, I imagine there are still the same game/player issues as it has now.
Lag - Hamachi fixes this?
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Apr 28, 2006 8:42:11 GMT -5
Just wondering how adopting hamachi would result in fewer new members joining? As player recruiting would still have to be done in the normal lobby. People will have to PM for V-IP, or the V-IP will have to be spammed across the lobby in the case of a cton.
I personally dont see the diffrence between passwording a game and hosting in hamachi, if you can give others the password you can just as easily give him the V-IP?
I wouldnt like to see a seperate lobby, that truly can result in fewer numbers joining, but i dont see no disadvantage of using direct IP via hamachi combined with the current lobby and PMing.
Also remember not all games will be hosted this way so there will still be some ladder games in the lobby
|
|
|
Post by Bantams on Apr 28, 2006 8:53:42 GMT -5
NO WAY
I feel like most of the other people in this lobby regards hamachi
its hard to find a game within the lobby and its twice as hard with hamachi
i downloaded this piece off junk the other day and i for one shall not be using it again
It will surely affect the recruitment of new members if it was made that all ladder games were run on hamachi
and i am quite sure less ladder games would be run due to its very hard to get players together to host a hamachi game
|
|
|
Post by Avogadro on Apr 28, 2006 10:05:10 GMT -5
GS lobby could still be used to Spam beginnings of ladder games and thus we would have a presence in lobby. We could also mention in lobby that there is less "bad peers' with hamachi and thus open players would download it and join ladder. If everyone on ladder switches to Hamachi then finding the games should become easier? I am undecided as I have had few issues with connection during MP play. But if Hamachi truly does resolve the connection issues, I can certainly see it as a reasonable change.
|
|
|
Post by Avogadro on Apr 28, 2006 10:07:04 GMT -5
PS-I most certainly understand the frustrations of those voting "non why should we need another program to play civ4" but the fact of the matter is. With P2P these connection issues will most likely NOT be fixed by future patches or XP packs. So even though we "shouldn't have too" what other options are out there?
|
|
|
Post by Lestat on Apr 28, 2006 11:08:06 GMT -5
I voted NOOOO but im not frustrated.
|
|
|
Post by loki1023 on Apr 28, 2006 11:45:48 GMT -5
Well, I registered at the Hamachi C4MP Lobby. Is that all I need to do or do I need to download anything? I'll gladly give it Hamachi a try to see if it is an improvement. But won't players still have to have a good connections to prevent lagging? No sir you need to download Hamachi it is under the downloads section it is only 750kb so it should be pretty quick to download. I would also suggest you download Civ4fans also under the downloads section to chat in the GS civ4 lobby or our IRC channel aswell as view the Hamachi C4MP Lobby Hamachi games lists . It very well may be the end of the ladder if games will not be hosted in a gamespy lobby. There is a risk that we'll get significantly less new members even compared to a current situation. And old members do leave, you know. The ladder can still keep a presence in the GS lobby by using civ4fans ,and in my view point new players will understand that the game has issues and eventualy use hamachi because it can bring their connection rate up to 97% thats a hell of an improvement over the GS lobby. Also I have already got 100 people registered on the site the only problem is most of them are in diffrent time zones so they don't see each others games that often ,but if the ladder joins thats a steady stream of games and more people will come on word of mouth because we will use the GS lobby to chat. I'm still wary of using it. All my other online games work ok, will Himachi spoil this? Is there a different lobby for Himachi? If so, is this why there are never many ladder games up in the normal game lobby now? I keep giving up trying to get a game these days, I don't have enough time! Yes Ellestar, I agree with you, no newcomer will know where to go for a game. No Hamachi will not tamper with your other games ,and yes there is another lobby however you can view it in civ4fans and chat in the gs lobby so the idea of the ladder losing it's presence in the GS lobby is a bit of a scare tactic to keep players locked in a MP enviroment that has maybe a 60% chance of working. I have to also agree with Ellestar on this count. Regardless of my own feelings about Hamachi, I think that 95% of the new players get onto the ladder because they step into a ladder game in Gamespy and they get told the web address. If everyone has Hamachi, then obviously nobody is going to want to play on Gamespy, and that means zero publicity. The only way I can see growth at that point is: - Through forums like Apolyton and Civfanatics. No idea how successful this would be, most folks seem dedicated to singleplayer. - Through useful people like Levi who help folks in the lobby spamming advertisements for the ladder site. Would anyone even be hanging out in the lobby doing this, though, if we were all playing on Hamachi? The other problem is: - There are going to be new people who have never seen any ladder players play, since they only use Hamachi. Suddenly they get told "Oh, all the best players play at this website, they use this special networking program you have to set up like so." Are they even going to take it seriously and bother installing Hamachi to play ladder? It's possible that GS players will be so fed up themselves with connection issues that they will happily lap up any suggestion of a workaround through Hamachi and join by the dozens. But it's also possible that it will fizzle and there will never be a new member again. I suspect it would lean toward the latter, but I'm really not sure at all. Just bringing this issue to the forefront. Again most new players can and will understand that Civ's MP is a bit unstable (being nice saying a "bit") and as I have pointed out several times above the ladder can keep it's presence in the lobby by using civ4fans for chat . heck civ4fans is only 1.21 mb large and Hamachi is 750 kb so they are quick to download ,simple to install ,take up very little disk space ,and optimal configuration settings are posted in flash tutorials next to tutorials on how to use hamachi to host or join games. In agreement with Elledge and Ellestar on the "growth equals life" issue. But, then again, perhaps I'm a bit biased from being new. I haven't had too many bad peer issues in MP games, so I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. They've occured on occasion, but no enough to dissuade. I lurked at C4P a few times since buying CIV when it first came out. But, didn't really feel compelled to join until I started playing MP games in the Gamespy lobby to get a feel for how I rated against folks I didn't know. Got tired of the punks who'd quit when the chips were down ... you know the story. And, I began seeing Ladder games. That was the compelling reason I joined. As is probably the case for 95% of the new folks. (Sulla's writeups did sell me also, so there is that.) And, I try to pay it forward by politely directing folks in the Gamespy lobby to this site when the ask the inevitible "what is Ladder play?". I haven't tried Hamachi ... but, I plan to try it out this weekend. If it WOWs me, maybe I'll change my story. Word of mouth could work, but you won't get the day in day out advertising you get when people see the word "Ladder" in game names on gamespy. Then again ... if you are hardcore into CIV, you're likely to find your way here one way or another someday. As for now, I'm skeptical about Hamachi, but I never thought I'd be playing in a MP game versus some kid who swears like a sailor and then runs away when things are going bad saying, "My mom says I've got to quit now." Never get those 90 mins of my life back ... TheStatGuy Get a group of ladder players together for your test heck it's wowed enough people in the french ladder aswell as enough here to get a vote like this. Again the ladder can easily keep a presence in the GS lobby using civ4fans to chat and view the Hamachi C4MP Lobby games lists. Nup... I dont have connetion issues to often. Always is posible that some one crash game in that or on another way. True you and I may not have issues most of the time ,but a vast majority are thats why I looked into Hamachi as a viable connection method. Someone cant connect, 9 times outta 10 they were just in a crashed game and hopped into the next without a restart I voted no btw, I think it will scare off new members. And even some current members. (its hard enough to find a ladder game as it is ) I don't know why Hamachi would scare people off it's smaller and simpler than a instant messaging program to use and combined with civ4fans it really fixes most of the issues players are having be it clearing game cache (civ4fans) to establishing stable p2p connections (hamachi). Getting IN to a game is no longer a problem for me since the demise of the 1.52 patch. I still think the "bugs" of a C4 game are mostly created by people with bad connections, people using less than optimum settings in the game itself (animations on, quickmove/combat off), not using low resolution settings, a comp that is less than the recommeded requirements, fueled by TOO many players in a game and a combination of any of the above, etc. C3 was the same - one can't connect because of a conflict with another; conflict person has to leave so others can get in and arrange for the conflict player to come in last; someone has to restart their comp during a game so there's a long reload process, etc etc etc. After players are connected and a game begins, I imagine there are still the same game/player issues as it has now. Lag - Hamachi fixes this? Hamachi will increase connection rates to 97% those 3% that have issues can seek support on the Hamachi C4MP Lobby Support forums or the Hamachi boards ,but in that very small 3% of cases most issues can be resolved. And no it will not fix lag ,but thats not the big issue now is it? Just wondering how adopting hamachi would result in fewer new members joining? As player recruiting would still have to be done in the normal lobby. People will have to PM for V-IP, or the V-IP will have to be spammed across the lobby in the case of a cton. I personally dont see the diffrence between passwording a game and hosting in hamachi, if you can give others the password you can just as easily give him the V-IP? I wouldnt like to see a seperate lobby, that truly can result in fewer numbers joining, but i dont see no disadvantage of using direct IP via hamachi combined with the current lobby and PMing. Also remember not all games will be hosted this way so there will still be some ladder games in the lobby Ah yess grasshoper you can spam the GS lobby ,and or you can download civ4fans to chat in the lobby as normal and click on our button on the toolbar in the app to open the c4f internal browser to the Hamachi C4MP Lobby and view it's game list and chat just as easily NO WAY I feel like most of the other people in this lobby regards hamachi its hard to find a game within the lobby and its twice as hard with hamachi i downloaded this piece off junk the other day and i for one shall not be using it again It will surely affect the recruitment of new members if it was made that all ladder games were run on hamachi and i am quite sure less ladder games would be run due to its very hard to get players together to host a hamachi game Are you calling it a piece of junk because you didn't see a game online or are you calling it a piece of junk because you had connection issues? if it's because of games hell I have only had the site up since march 14th mate and already have 100+ people trying hamachi. And no one is saying ladder games must use Hamachi just that it's the official recomendation and besides you can always get people intrested by using civ4fans to chat in the gs lobby. GS lobby could still be used to Spam beginnings of ladder games and thus we would have a presence in lobby. We could also mention in lobby that there is less "bad peers' with hamachi and thus open players would download it and join ladder. If everyone on ladder switches to Hamachi then finding the games should become easier? I am undecided as I have had few issues with connection during MP play. But if Hamachi truly does resolve the connection issues, I can certainly see it as a reasonable change. Just use civ4fans to spam the game in the gs lobby like you mentioned above and chat while your in the staging room if you want to get more players . And yea it trully helps thats why we have this poll up. PS-I most certainly understand the frustrations of those voting "non why should we need another program to play civ4" but the fact of the matter is. With P2P these connection issues will most likely NOT be fixed by future patches or XP packs. So even though we "shouldn't have too" what other options are out there? Correct p2p is not the best setup for a gaming enviroment they would have done better with a client server setup ,but it's to late to do anything about that now and as we have witnessed the patches can even make things worse. ---- Please don't make me reply to that much again pretty please
|
|
|
Post by loki1023 on Apr 28, 2006 12:06:06 GMT -5
Btw here is a nice screen shot of Civ4fans with a split screen bottom is the GS lobby chat top is a view of the ever evolving games list on the hamachi site.
|
|
|
Post by Levi on Apr 28, 2006 12:12:43 GMT -5
You need not worry that recruitment in the lobby will suffer. I will continue to advertise and recruit for this ladder as I did in the ptw days of the civ3 ladder.
|
|