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Post by venceslas on Feb 21, 2006 15:55:52 GMT -5
It's really a pleasure and very interresting to read your words Salqadri.
From my reading, I disagree in some minor point, but that's not important, and I do not assume automatically that my reading are the truth.
Thanks to such explanation like you are doing, maybe future will be more peaceful.
chris.
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Post by salqadri on Feb 21, 2006 17:39:30 GMT -5
Your welcome Sidhe, Chris, and thank you all for keeping the discussion peaceful. The best way to deal with animosity is for us to try and understand each other. Sorry Sidhe, I dont know exactly what rattle your talking about . Allah-u-akbar means Allah is the greatest. La ilaha ill Allah, Muhammad ur Rasoolullah means There is no deity besides Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet. This is what you would have to say (with full intent) to embrace Islam. There is a melodius Eid chant that goes like "Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, Laa ilaaha illallahu Wallahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, Wa lillahil Hamd." (Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest. There is no deity besides Allah and Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest and all praises are for Allah only.) So not sure exactly what you're referring to. Let me know if you remember. So ya, I will gladly try to answer all your questions, however hard, provided that the forum remains welcoming, and provided I have time ofcourse.
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 21, 2006 17:44:11 GMT -5
Your welcome Sidhe, Chris, and thank you all for keeping the discussion peaceful. The best way to deal with animosity is for us to try and understand each other. Sorry Sidhe, I dont know exactly what rattle your talking about . Allah-u-akbar means Allah is the greatest. La ilaha ill Allah, Muhammad ur Rasoolullah means There is no deity besides Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet. This is what you would have to say (with full intent) to embrace Islam. There is a melodius Eid chant that goes like "Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, Laa ilaaha illallahu Wallahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, Wa lillahil Hamd." (Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest. There is no deity besides Allah and Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest and all praises are for Allah only.) So not sure exactly what you're referring to. Let me know if you remember. So ya, I will gladly try to answer all your questions, however hard, provided that the forum remains welcoming, and provided I have time ofcourse. Thanks again Was talking about there is no god but Alah and mohammed is his prophet but you covered it:) Have you ever seen the 13th warrior I think it's called, it's really interesting to see the cultural mix between viking and muslim considering they traded with each other; ok work of fiction but I really apreciated the dialogue and message inherent in this film. Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: [Drawing in the sand] There is only one God, and Mohammad is his prophet. the whole film just smacks of cultural prejudice at the start but gradualy Ahmed learns there language and they come together in common brotherhood: sounds trite but it's really well done. I love it when the viking says his mother bread with a dog and he responds at least I know who my father is you pig eating son of a w.h..o.re in perfect viking. And after the laughter the viking leader says but how did you learn our language. And he says: I listened really good message there. Sorry I digress. It's a subject you could dwell on for weeks, but I ask again do you think God meant us to turn against our brothers in faith and that the resultant wars were his message? When you have time, no rush
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Post by salqadri on Feb 21, 2006 18:23:05 GMT -5
Lol. No I havent seen the movie, but sounds funny.
Bloodshed is obviously wrong in Islam, however to ask how God will judge them cannot be answered easily by you or I. It would need a thorough understanding of the conflicts, and knowledge of the intents and motivations behind each individual in the event. Also, for each individual, that one event is not that persons entire life. There are many things that go into determining the fate of an individual in the afterlife, and as I said earlier, the justice system of God is very comprehensive, and also very lenient.
I dont see how the resultant wars are a message. And no it doesnt make sense for brothers in faith to fight each other. However, arguments happen, and I'd like to refer you to whiplash's image of you meeting necro lol. So when people of different opinions, slowly start attacking each other, at the group/ideologists/national level can result in organized fighting. Again, whether both parties are correct, or just one is, or whether none are, or whether the actions were justified, are all up to Gods discretion. It all comes down to how strongly one feels about their opinion. If they are willing to sacrifice their life for it, the rest of us should try and stop them, without us getting involved in increased bloodshed though. If they still end up killing each other, God may well punish them, but again, every individual has done good and bad, which are weighted, after much of the bad is forgiven.
It should be noted btw, that in Islam, the "Thou shalt not Kill" is a very severe rule. Even one murder, just one murder, means that the murderers life should be forfeighted. This is why in some Muslim countried you see Capital Punishment. However, this can only be done after a fair and proper trial. A judge is highly accountable by God, but if the Judge had good intentions and made a wrong decision, God is forgiving. Thus any bloodshed that results in deaths, someone somewhere will be held accountable by God, guaranteed. If the murderer is not executed or escapes capital punishment, then it is fine, but will result in extremely severe punishment in Hell.
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Post by Avogadro on Feb 22, 2006 1:34:06 GMT -5
yes indeed it is nature you reap what you sow. Society may not condemn you today for an evil deed but ultimately, sooner or later we all pay and receive the consequences of our actions. Be they judged by god or my ourselves. I work in end of life care and can vocalize that "regrets" and "confessions" are so very painfully at the end of your life. If you feel bad about something, a lost brother, the way you broke up with and ex girlfriend, the nerd at school you picked on.....make amends. Make amends often and make them regularly. Do not wait till the end of your life, the moment where you are about to plunge into the unknown(let's not kid it is the unknown, the only ones who have gone through it are dead and cant come back to tell us what is it all about). To wait until the end is overwhelming. Much like leaving the dishes pile up for days on end. I know some people who do this. And they actually get scared of the dishes. They look at the pile. See the food all dried up and sticky on the plates. They know they will be spending hours trying to catch up. Its enough to get nervous, anxious and overwhelmed. Now picture having something similar but much grander. The cleaning up of your whole life!!! How scary is that, to clean everything, to set everything in order before you die. Best to start now and do a bit everyday and once caught up to do it regularly in order to remain ahead of the game.
PS-pardon the writing style. Rough week lost 6 patients in 4 days now and even the "experts" have their moments of doubt and confusion. In my work dying is natural. I am a nurse who works with dying people. People who have terminal cancers and will not live no matter what we do. Death is natural and just when I come to think I got a grasp on the subject....God decides to let a 26 year old mother of two die of leukemia. I see the children's pain. The widows fright. And It makes me wonder..it really does. We must so learn to get along and cherish what we have. We live our whole lives growing, planting seeds, watching them bloom, watching them fail. We spend our whole lives evolving, growing, becoming only to have it taken away from us at the end..:::sigh::: the irony, the injustice, the absurdity. Aren't we though that there is sense in the universe, that there are reasons for all...
Why the hell do we live, learn, become, grow and blossom into something beautiful only to die.
Yes i know a flower does it!! Yes i know it is nature!!
But Man has been wresting with this notion of good vs evil, life vs death for many thousands of years and frankly I'm not so sure we know anything more about it now then we did way back when. And by the time we do find out what the rules really are...it is simply to late.
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 22, 2006 4:23:17 GMT -5
Well I work in one of the few hospitals in the country that have a comprehensive palliative care team and I would like to say: I wouldn't do your job for the world. That you do is apreciated by the staff and personel around you I would imagine more than you can know. As for life and death, of course we know nothing about death since only one man I know of came back from it when it comes to understanding life and death and the cycle of nature etc you might as well refer to a genetics text book or an evolutionary one, if you want a philosophical view on it, then I'm afraid your as in the dark as the first Neanderthal who thought about what happens after he dies?
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Post by salqadri on Feb 22, 2006 14:01:17 GMT -5
Why the hell do we live, learn, become, grow and blossom into something beautiful only to die. Beautiful. Keep thinking along those lines, and you shall "find out what the rules are", hopefully "before its too late". When is it too late? Obviously, when you die. But while you live, should you find the answer to those questions, and should you embrace what you find, hopefully you shall come to realize the following (a poem I wrote long long ago he he, inspired by John Donne): An Oracle of Great Wisdom and Vitality, Death is but the Gateway to Eternity. Thus Fear of Death is Futile and Inane, When Death shall Die, Immortality shall Reign. So to come back to your question, as to why have death in the first place? Well, it is to determine the nature of that eternal life. 70/80 years is a very short time, and as you go through your youth, you begin to realize it wont come back. Its a one-way trip to old-age, then death. So what can we do in this life to make the one after better? Or better yet, is there any way to find out those "rules", before its too late? Sure! Why dont you just read the Rulebook yourself? I mean hey, the Creator Himself sent you the rules, for you to read and follow. I mean its that simple. The Rulebook has the answers to your questions, including why God does what He does, why would He make some people suffer so much in this life, with real examples of people He loved so much. The answers may be difficult to understand, but I think can be understood by almost everyone should they put some thought into it, in the context of what God Himself has told you. Heres a little something from the Rulebook: If you walk slowly towards God, He will come running to you. EDIT: Tell me if you liked my poem, or if it was total crap, he he .
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Post by MMV on Feb 22, 2006 20:57:13 GMT -5
regrettably, today the muslim world witnissed a catastrophic event - the destruction of the Al'Askariya Shrine/temple in Iraq. Roughly, 1200 years old (construction finished about 200 years after the death of Muhammad with at least two DIRECT decsendents of Muhammad being entombed there)
one of THE oldest mosques/shrines/temples in the muslim world. Roughly, the arab equivilant to the christian Vatican (and built about the same time)
The news is blaming it on everyone from the sunnis to the shi'ites to the americans.
I've been lucky enough in my life to have visited many places, including both the Vatican and the Al'Askariya Mosque - they both leave you with a sense of overwhelming spirituality and peace as the other.
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Post by whiplash on Feb 22, 2006 22:33:53 GMT -5
What is totally mind-boggling to me is that following this event mobs ran rampant burning Israeli and American flags.
The button pushers blow up a masque and the goofballs demonstrate against the Americans. I take what Sal says to heart and it really affects my attitudes toward the Muslim world; but really they need to get their act togother.
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Post by MMV on Feb 23, 2006 0:53:38 GMT -5
the BIGGEST problem is, people blame this on MUSLIMS
the problem is RADICAL middle-easterners who HAPPEN to be muslim.
all religions had AND CURRENTLY HAVE their own radicals - baptists blowing up medical clinics, murdering doctors (in the name of god) that japanese sect that gassed the subway over +1million people MURDERED on the continent of africa MONTHLY
The problem is NOT the religion, the problem is the RADICAL human beings that simply try to justify their actions through OUT OF CONTEXT "definitions" of whatever spiritual guide/bible they wave in their hands.
and the blowing up of the mosque? It REALLY wouldn't surprise me that the shi'ites could have done this to their OWN mosque in an effort to start a sunni-shi'ite civil war.
which poses a socio-philosophic question; are a people that were mostly "tribal" less than 75 years ago really READY for "civilization" as it's known throughout most of the rest of the world?
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Post by Tony on Feb 23, 2006 5:09:59 GMT -5
yeah but the problem is how wide speard these belifs are within the muslim community.
Sure every religion has its radicals, but some have more then there fair share!!
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 23, 2006 5:36:49 GMT -5
This is obviously a retaliation by extreme fundementalist elements(or non muslims as I would call them) for the damage to the sunnis spiral mineret temple, all this specualtion smacks of the same sensationalism that we're accusing the flag burners of. Really the most simple answer is often the correct one. I see no purpose in demonising or surmising based on hypothesis. Does anyone remember that Xbox advert where the guy gets born and flies through his life to slam into a grave at the end(they banned it not long after it came out). If only everyones life was that exhilerating then no one would fear death
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Post by Avogadro on Feb 23, 2006 8:48:27 GMT -5
Or the Madonna/Pepsi/Jesus commercial?
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Post by whiplash on Feb 23, 2006 9:41:28 GMT -5
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Post by MMV on Feb 23, 2006 13:59:17 GMT -5
it's definately going to get NASTY!
freedom of expression redefined as self-will run riot.
it's a TOTAL shame.
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 23, 2006 14:43:34 GMT -5
Amen to that. Do you think people will ever stop using religion as an excuse for evil? Do you think people will ever learn?
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Post by zzZhenon on Feb 23, 2006 23:32:17 GMT -5
What's wrong with offending people? I get offended on a daily basis.
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 27, 2006 16:25:29 GMT -5
It depends whether you think offending people in the name of free speech is the reason that exists, or wether you think the law exists to expose the truth; as I said before the right exists if it exists to guarantee the truth gets to the people, not to guarantee those with no moral code spout off whenever they see fit; with every right comes an obligation to observe that rights original foundation. Being an arse and just offending people is not something freedom of speech was designed to accomodate, and yes I know how ironic that sounds, but there is always reason behind my provoctaion, provocation for the sake of it is wrong, as is the counter provocation, neither side has any moral high ground here.
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Post by salqadri on Feb 28, 2006 0:22:08 GMT -5
wow Sidhe, I really like that argument. Well said.
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 2, 2006 15:45:36 GMT -5
Best way to deal with religious Iconography is this offend all religions equaly I've been playing about with this ever since I came up with the idea a while back and I thought it might provide some light relief, I've given a nod to most if not all the world religions but may have missed a few. If I have offended any religion in any way then well duh at least I'm even handed Anyway here's my virtual picture Picture the last supper with the 13 men sitting there. Now picture Christ flipping the table and the disciples pulling out a series of Automatic weapons etc as Mohammed comes unicycling in with a bomb strapped to him. Simultaneously Abraham and David and Jeramiah are abseiling through a hole in the roof SAS style shouting death to the infidels. Budha is perched under a table whilst Vishnu makes a lightening attack on the diminuitive Kung fu expert. Zeus has sent a lightening bolt through the window to strike Jesus whilst Loki is disapearing out of the back door with the silver ware(including the holy grail) meanwhile the Dagda has cunningly slipped in behind Mohammed and is relieving him of his bomb. A jaguar spirit is desperately trying to eat Jesus's left overs amidst the hail of bullets whilst an enormous bear swipes at John who's grenade gets knocked into a group of Shetani. In a small alcove a Black figure is sitting with an African shaman, light peirces the gloom ocassionaly and silver smoke drifts up from the niche almost masking their presence in the melee. A rather bookish looking figure is busy trying to save the books and religous scrolls from harm mostly in vain and stumbling into a Japanese guy who is trying to save all the objects that haven't been stolen by Loki or that are nailed down. Outside Confucious is vigorously debating with Lao tsu whether they should not get involved because violence is wrong or that they should just not get involved because it would require action. Meanwhile inside various other people(mostly of oriental persuasion) are milling about trying to decide which side is going to win and consequently which side it'd be best to be on as a Persian gentleman runs screaming from the building past an Indian figure claiming that none of these guys exist and that the original motheistic relgigion is the true Religion. Ra has taken up refuge in the rafters and is laughing and clapping the resultant fray. Meanwhile the previously mentioned Indian figure standing at the door - his face is a picture of confusion at the conflict between Jesus Mohammed and Abraham - Slowly shrugs his shoulders and says "whatever" and dissapears from view shaking his head ocasionaly and laughing. If I have missed out some religions I apologise. Who wants to represent my commision and publish it in The News of the World? Would it be offensive? decided to keep Jedi out as as far as I'm aware there are no churches or priests so although legaly it qualifies as a religion, in practice it was just a stab at trying to get something into the census records for a laugh
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