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Post by Sidhe on Feb 18, 2006 12:00:31 GMT -5
You really are a hatefull little man aren't you. I see no reason to respond to your ranting, your doing about as much as you can to destroy your own arguments without any help from me. Go wail at someone who cares. Well that's ironic Whiplash are you trying to stifle Necrominous's freedom of speech, to clarify I never started any of this off topic stuff. I'd quite quickly step back from the brink Necrominous Whip has spoken to curtail your right to free speech. I'm not trawling for attention I'm simply getting attacked for something, you'll have to ask Necrominous why he insists on ranting at me in 600 seperate threads and about nothing whatsoever? I'm having too much fun laughing at this guy atm ;D that said I will stop responding to this guy since he's starting to sound unbalanced. Hopefully he'll calm down and stop ranting at some point. I don't really see the need to provoke him any further, would be fun though ;D j/k
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Post by Ascension/Necrominous on Feb 18, 2006 16:28:47 GMT -5
Hmmm, again Sidme says he's not going to respond and then goes right ahead and responds? There's one problem, you can't help yourself. No one can have the last word on you. Even if you have no idea what to say and only can make a ridiculously stupid remark, you'll make it. Without the admins coming in and saving your ass by locking this thread it's making it obvious just how infinitely dim witted you actually are.
By the way, you seemed somewhat nervous in the last post. I'm thinking you can't figure out why the admins haven't locked the thread and worried you may actually have to stick it out and defend yourself with no assistance. It is making me envision an immature kid who only picks fights when there are adults around so he may appear, to himself at least, to be a big shot. Once the adults break it up he convinces himself how he would have really gave it to the other person and how bad ass he is. Maybe the admins are as fed up with your behavior as I am and you're no longer under their protection.
If I could actually make Sidme stop responding the admins should put a little icon of a trophy by my name. To accomplish such an amazing feat would deserve an award. I'm sure at the very least I would receive many pats on the back of congratulations by fellow members.
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Post by Ascension/Necrominous on Feb 18, 2006 20:29:33 GMT -5
You may get some assistance after all Sidme. Even Dustydragon call tell you desperately need it. Two dumb noobs vs necro, finally we have a fair fight here.
I'm not craving any attention from you DD but obviously you feel lonely and would like to join the party. Don't feel mad because I dissed your worthless complaining post(see Separate Forum under General Board if someone doesn't know what I'm talking about).
Basically what your saying in this post DD is "I don't have enough I.Q. to figure out there's many different sections of the forum already to make it so easy a brain dead person could figure it out and find what they are looking for. I'm too slow and/or lazy to put in the time to learn the game of CIV. Please, please hold my hand and force feed me every little relevant detail of the game so I may become a decent enough player as to not completely embarrass myself." Face it, the post was not needed and whiny.
If you want to create dialog about CIV tactics and learn something, ask questions in Fried's Den. Pretty simple. I may learn something form the answers as well and appreciate the analysis of your question. Try it and see what happens. Or would you rather get dragged down into the muck here with Sidme and I?
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Post by salqadri on Feb 20, 2006 15:37:19 GMT -5
I apoligize to any of our muslim or jewish friends here present in the ladder and can assure you umbra's views are minoritairy and will not be posted publically any longer. Thank you very much. I noticed that not just umbra, but almost everyone who posted here fail to understand the Muslim reaction. As a "moderate" Muslim, let me try to explain. First of all, I'm a civver, just like the rest of you. I study engineering at USC, and support the Trojans in Football and work at the USC Robotics Lab cuz I get a kick out of bringing things to life. I am not some crazy fanatic out to kill infidels. I'm an ordinary guy like the rest of you. And I am a practicing Muslim, albeit a devout one. And I am outraged by the cartoons. Sure there have been many other drawings, and we had enough tolerance to let them go. But these were published for 12 continuous weeks, under the name of Freedom of Speech, being done by civilized, educated journalists. The fact that these cartoons were published by responsible "civilized" people, is why we have taken this so seriously. The cartoons are not an attack on just our prophet, but on our entire people. They depict us as terrorists, as violent, as evil. You can see the cartoons if you search online yourself and try and put yourself in our position. Believe it or not, I am proud of the Muslim reaction, and it was greatly needed. Arla foods, a Danish company, said it took them 40 years to build their business, and they saw it die in 6 days. This was accomplished through peaceful buycotting of Danish products, not violence. This peaceful show of anger is what I am so proud of. The destruction in Beirut was appaling, but the overall protests, the majority of them were peaceful, such as the buycott reaction in Saudi Arabia. Its not just one small sect of Muslims that were offended, its all of us, including me, the guy just like you. The prophet is beloved to us, as he had the highest character in humanity, compassion, mercy and love. He fought for justice, gave charity to the poor, and even forced every able Muslim to give atleast 2.5% of their entire wealth to the poor. He gave so many rights to women, unheard-of in the rest of the world. Would the prophet have reacted the way we did? Ofcourse not, and we understand that, but he is not here anymore, and protecting his reputation and name is our responsibility now. Micheal Hart rated him the #1 most influential man in history: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100He was so influential due to one main reason: His highly esteemed, excellent character. He help us show the true path, that there is only one God, who is the Creator of all things. He has no sons or daughters because obviously he is not like man (no hands or feet etc, any such reference is metaphorical). He is not some entity bounded by physical form or by time or anything in "nature", because all the laws of the universe were created by Him. And this God has directly sent us guidance, through many Books, including Torah, the Bible and the last one the Qur'an, the only one left completely unadulterated (God made a promise in the Qur'an, that He will ensure this final Book will remain so). Both the Torah and the Injeel (Bible) refer to the arrival of the last messiah. The Jews rejected Jesus, and they rejected Muhammad, and still await the final Messiah. The christians refer this to the returning of Jesus. That Final Messiah is none other than Muhammad, and unlike in the previous two Books, God tells us that this is that last prophet. The prophets Moses and Jesus are extremely dear to Muslims, just as Mohammed, and we also get very offended when people make fun of Jesus (e.g Southpark). Like Christians, we believe in the return of Jesus, the subtle difference being that Christians believe Jesus was resurrected, whilst we believe Jesus never died in the first place. The words of the Qur'an are "We made it appear to them that Jesus was crucified", implying that Jesus was somehow protected by God, and lifted to the heavens to come back another day. In an authentic Hadeeth (saying of the prophet), this favor was granted by God to Jesus, because of a prayer by Jesus. In the prayer, Jesus wanted the oppurtunity to live amongst the people of the last prophet. Muslims believe that when Jesus shall return, he shall save the world from the Anti-Christ, and bring the world to the true path. Hope you guys atleast found that interesting. Please in future avoid attacking Muslims like this. Atleast talk to us and ask us why we reacted the way we did before jumping to assumptions. We're not bad people. And we dont hate you. We want to live in peace with everyone, its just that we feel like we're targetted. Believe it or not, this Friday, I went to Seattle for an interview with Microsoft, and at the airport, on the way there and on the way back, they told me I'm on a "watch list", so extra checking is required. Why dude? Why on Earth am I on a watch list? How do you think that makes me feel? How would it make you feel if they told you that you are on their watch list? I have an American accent, grew up with a Western culture, the only thing is, I am a Muslim, thus I've been placed on a watch list. Kinda rude eh. So naturally, we feel targetted, and my own example proves that its true. On top of that, the Danes publish cartoons telling Muslims how much they hate us, and exactly what they think of us, and the Danes had no problems with them for those 12 continuous publications, implying that perhaps all the people there were content with the paper making a joke out of us. We feel sad, and helpless, that the West can constantly ridicule us, and we cant do anything. Heck, no one is "free" to make public anti-semitic comments, or deny the holocaust (which is illegal), but you can say what you want about Muslims. Not very fair. Muslims around the globe, as well as many other Christian and Rights groups, are pushing for legistlators to forbid any kind of bashing of any religion in the free press, and we seek the support of everyone. To understand more about why all this inexcusable Terrorism is taking place, here is more info to put in perspective: In our eyes, the root of the problem was that Palestenians were forced to leave their homes and lands to form Israel back in 1948. Americas support for Israels continuous Illegal occupations (Illegal according to the UN), yet their intolerance to Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan/Syria seems hypocritical to us and unjust. I dont think its hard to understand why we get upset, but I guess I'm on the 'other' side so may not understand why you dont understand, he he. I encourage you all to find out more about who Muhammad really was. There is an article titled: "What does the Prophet Muhammad mean to the 1.6 billion Muslims and why?"Hope this helps, salqadri
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Post by whiplash on Feb 20, 2006 16:03:40 GMT -5
Sal, I'll respond in greater detail later; but for now I'm curious.
Were you raised in the Muslim faith; or did you convert?
What Hadith do you follow?
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Post by skidbladnir on Feb 20, 2006 16:07:31 GMT -5
nice post salqadri, as far as political and social aspects of a normal guy are concerned; it's always very interesting to have such a point of view. now concerning the religion and the links you give, to me it's just proselitism and biased history, just like every religion gives.. The fact that Indians resisted pacifically to England means more to me than Muslims reacting like they do now. One is about political independance, the other one about..religion. but that must be the atheist in me speaking about the cartoons : It is not exactly how it happened, else I would definitely understand you. One paper published the cartoons and started to get threatened, some journalists got fired in other papers that published the cartoons to support the danish paper, thus making the reaction of journalists even bigger. I think that in this story/escalation, everyone felt agressed, muslims seeing an occidental provocation and journalists considering some events/speeches as threats to freedom of speech.
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Post by salqadri on Feb 20, 2006 16:15:02 GMT -5
Sal, I'll respond in greater detail later; but for now I'm curious. Were you raised in the Muslim faith; or did you convert? What Hadith do you follow? I was raised in the Muslim faith, not a convert. The second question doesnt make much sense, as I follow all hadith, like most Muslims, and give preference to those that are considered most authentic. There are several books of Hadith, collected by different individuals, and they all have kind of like an authenticity rating for each hadith they contain. All books are equally revered and respected. Accepting or rejecting a hadith is subjective to every individual, since it all depends on the source of the hadith. But every word in the Qur'an has to be accepted as the Word of God Himself if they are Muslim.
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Post by salqadri on Feb 20, 2006 16:24:51 GMT -5
nice post salqadri, as far as political and social aspects of a normal guy are concerned; it's always very interesting to have such a point of view. Thanks skid. I was just trying to explain why we reacted the way we did. If you still dont think our reaction is justified, thats fine I understand. I also agree the reaction was far bigger than expected, but if it leads to a UN resolution against the demonization of any religion, then its an effective reaction. Ofcourse, we all condemn violent acts and destruction of property, but the key is that you understand why we thought the cartoons were so offensive. About the political vs religious thing, you have to realize one thing about our belief: that at the end of our life, all the politics etc are history. There will only be one thing that God will judge us by, whether we had the patience to follow His guidance. If we did, He shall reward us, and if we didnt, He shall punish us. His justice is very comprehensive and forgiving. It is this reality that gives religion so much weight. I mean, suppose, just suppose, there really is a God, and when you die God will ask you why you rejected His signs, you wont have any excuse. Even a fraction of eternal punishment, is eternal. Also, all the firing of journalists and other papers getting involved is a latter thing; im talking about the cartoons back in September. There were 12 initial publications, during which no one was fired and no other newspaper participated. Then in January when the news blew up, other news papers joined in end of January/early Feb, and the editor of Soir was fired after that etc. So I still stand corrected I think, if we look at pre-January. You can verify and correct me.
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Post by salqadri on Feb 20, 2006 17:34:30 GMT -5
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Post by montana99 on Feb 20, 2006 22:17:46 GMT -5
Salquadri,
I understand your position, I don't agree with it completely.
When I was growing up their was a saying that went like this:
"Sticks & Stones will break my bones, but words (cartoons) will never hurt me"
My holy figure has been defiled in the USA so many times, that I can't count, thru print, art, radio, TV, etc., but I don't go out and kill the people who did it. My faith is stronger than that.
Yes their were peaceful protests, but their were also one's like Nigeria where some poor soul who probably had no idea what was going on lost his/her life because of some stupid cartoon and he might not have been a "Muslim". What a way to die, a tire around your waist and 5 gallons of gas. Makes a lot of sense.
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Post by ajerzguy on Feb 20, 2006 22:43:50 GMT -5
Tell me Sal do you think your God hails a suicide bomber when he reaches the pearly gates? Or does he ask if it was only "infidels" that were killed along with the suicide bomber. In either case is the bomber allowed in?
Someone walks into your dorm room and takes all your worldly belongings, clothes, computer, tv, jewelry and that loose change right in front of your roommate. When you return and stand there astonished you look to your roommate and find out he was there. Do you now look at him the same as if he weren't there? I wouldn't. As a matter of fact I would see him as an accessory to the thievery.
What most people are getting tired with is the silence within the Muslim community in not denouncing what is transpiring on a worldwide basis. The threat to world peace in the name of a God hearkens back to the middle-ages not of times when a dirty bomb or a nuclear bomb can be transported anywhere in the world in a matter of hours. If a "crazed" suicide bomber can be content with taking a mere 50 or even 2,500 lives in a single attack I'm sure an attack that would take hundreds of thousands would be a far greater accomplishment.
So it's not that all Muslims are guilty it is though that the vast majority are either complacent or even see this destruction of human life as being honorable.
The stance of Muslim countries against the State of Israel is synonymous with the crazed life of Adolph Hitler.
Using religion as a cause only gives the nonbelievers of any God more reason to denounce and vilify all religions and anyone that has a belief.
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Post by MMV on Feb 20, 2006 23:44:00 GMT -5
"The Jews rejected Jesus, and they rejected Muhammad, and still await the final Messiah[/i]"
The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, true, but they did NOT reject him as a prophet of God.
The Jews DIDN'T reject Muhammad as the Messiah for Muhammad was NOT EVER MEANT to be a Messiah, merely a messenger and prophet of God.
(which is kind of the point, no images of Muhammad to ensure he is not falsely worshiped instead of the one true God)
perhaps the sentence was confusing and it wasn't exactly what you meant.
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Post by venceslas on Feb 21, 2006 2:22:34 GMT -5
Salqadri, your point stand for the sunnite, not for the shiite it seems to me. Especially when you said :
"That Final Messiah is none other than Muhammad"
That's make also a difference on the possibility to reinterpret the Qur'an. What about your point on this subject?
chris.
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 21, 2006 6:27:10 GMT -5
I don't understand that phrase either I always thought according to the bible anyway that the anointed one or messiah was god's chosen representative and a seed of gods own? Mohammed whilst fitting one of those criteria is not God's son thus is not the messiah? Must resist urge to quote Monty Python Alah al akbar.... There is no god but God and Mohammed is his prophet?
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Post by salqadri on Feb 21, 2006 9:39:56 GMT -5
Salqadri, your point stand for the sunnite, not for the shiite it seems to me Thanks Chris. No this is the same belief of both Sunnis and Shia's. The difference is that Shias believe that the only people that can lead the Muslim nation, is a direct disendant of the prophet, whereas Sunni would allow anyone to be the leader. Shia's await the Mehdi, and so do Sunnis. There will come a time where the whole world will fight against the believers, and 2 figures will appear on both sides of this war: the anti-christ, and the Mehdi will rise as the leader of the believers. Eventually Jesus will arrive to end the war by defeating the Anti-christ. There are a couple of small sects that think the Mehdi has already arrived, and one such sect, called the Qadianis, that believe the Mehdi was an individual in Pakistan called Mirza Ghulam Qadiani. EDIT: I should also note that it is widely believed by Sunni and Shia that the Mehdi will indeed turn out to be a direct discendant of the prophet.
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Post by salqadri on Feb 21, 2006 10:01:22 GMT -5
Tell me Sal do you think your God hails a suicide bomber when he reaches the pearly gates? Or does he ask if it was only "infidels" that were killed along with the suicide bomber. In either case is the bomber allowed in? Thanks for your question Ajerzguy, as it is a good question to ask, with not a straight answer. However the question could have been rephrased to be less aggressive dont you think? Also, my God is the same as your God, who is the same God of all people, Muslims or non-Muslims. And btw MMV is correct in saying that Muhammad is not considered a God, and the reason portrayal is forbidden is so that it doesnt lead to worshipping or idoltry of Muhammad. I'd give you the honest answer to your question: 1) Islam is against Tyrants/Oppressors, and highly encourages resistance or proper war against them. Jihad, the kind that the world normally refers to, is a nation-wide action, as opposed to an individual action, against such a tyrant/oppressor. If a soldier should die fighting for the sake of Islam and Justice, he shall be granted Heaven, God permitting. Many people regard Israel as an Oppressor/Tyrant, due to the illegal occupation, displacement of people from homes as well as indiscriminate attacks and killings (Dont take this out on me though plz). 2) Suicide is one of the gravest sins of all in Islam, the same level of adultery. Suicide is guaranteed hell, unless God wills against it for some reason. Atleast in adultery there is a chance that you can repent, but Suicide, once you do it, there is no turning back. 3) Islam enforces us, that even in a Jihad, to never harm the non-soldiers, especially women and children. There are very strong war-ethics that Muslims are required to follow. These suicide bombings, may well violate the rule of not killing women/children. So given all this, what would be Gods conclusion? Well with the given statements above, that Jihad is not individual-based but nation based, Suicide is haram (forbidden), and War ethics are so strong, technically speaking those suicide-bombers would not go to Paradise. However, there is one final clause: Intent. Suppose that individual, is not learned in Islam, though he practices well, and knows all that he has been tought by his 'teachers'. Suppose also that those 'teachers' told him, that if you do this, you are guaranteed heaven. And then that individual, truly believing it, and truly doing it for the sake of pleasing God (only God knows the true intentions), then it is likely imo that God grants the person heaven. There is an accountability ladder in Islam, that I do not wish to explain right now, but for the same one action, one person may go to Heaven, another (perhaps that teacher) to hell. All based on one thing: intent. Also, "acquiring knowledge is a necessity on every Muslim man or woman." This is an authentic Hadeeth (saying of the prophet), which implies that it is our responsibility to ensure that we have the right knowledge to make the decision, so therefore it makes it difficult to say if the intent was enough, though I think it would be for that illerate bomber (who probably had something horrible done in his life by the people he hates; one has to also question the drive for the action. If it is for revenge, the he would probably go to hell for suicide. That is not considered good intent).
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Post by whiplash on Feb 21, 2006 10:27:25 GMT -5
I wonder how good the record keeping has been since the 7th century. Is is possible to identify any of the direct descendants of Muhammad?
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Post by salqadri on Feb 21, 2006 10:33:25 GMT -5
I don't understand that phrase either I always thought according to the bible anyway that the anointed one or messiah was god's chosen representative and a seed of gods own? Mohammed whilst fitting one of those criteria is not God's son thus is not the messiah? lol. Well you should know that in the Qur'an itself, it requires us to believe in the past Books, i.e the Torah as well as the Injeel (new testament). The other prominent book is the Zuboor. Torah was brought down on Moses, Zuboor on David, Injeel on Jesus and Qur'an on Muhammad. The Bible consists of parts from all 3 books before the Qur'an. Anyhow, there is one major difference, perhaps THE difference, due to which Muslims consider Christians as non-Muslims (i.e those that have not submitted to the Will of God). This difference is that Christianity raised Jesus to the level of God himself. Associating any person or thing to God is considered 'shirk', or blasphemy. In Islam, Jesus is a revered Messiah (not just a prophet, similar in status to the other 3 Messiahs I mentioned earlier). The Qur'an clearly says, that God has no sons, and is no son. The reference to the Holy Spirit in the bible, is usually considered to mean by Muslims as the greatest angel, Gabriel. Though we also believe that God has a 'ruh', which is the Spirit of God, the embodiment of life, which we believe He has instilled into each of us. And yes, we also believe that we (humans, not just Muslims) are the viceroy of God on this Earth.
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Post by salqadri on Feb 21, 2006 10:48:10 GMT -5
I wonder how good the record keeping has been since the 7th century. Is is possible to identify any of the direct descendants of Muhammad? lol. Its difficult I'm sure, but you'll be amazed. Just as we spend our time playing games, arabs in the past used to like researching geneology. And many records have been kept, though are slowly being lost I'm sure. If you see the name "Syed", it probably means that the person is a direct disendant of Muhammad. It should be noted though, that Muhammad had no sons, only daughters. By tradition, the word Syed is placed before the name. However, many people nowadays remove this, especially Sunnis. Because it is not so essential for Sunnis to know if someone is a descendant or not, if it gets too inconvenient (like the real name is skipped lol, cuz the first name often becomes Syed followed by last name in western soceity; sometimes people place it as their last name; though the trend is to just do away with it). Also, it also has the problem of giving someone higher 'rank' than another, when in Islam, ALL are equal in the eyes of God. Its not about health, wealth, height, gender, race or lineage; the rank that God gives us is simply a function of how much God is pleased with us. Thus anything that gives one a feeling of superiority is bad in Islam. Again, it comes down to intent. So ya, you have a valid point. But like I said, "it will turn out" that the Mehdi is a descendant. Its not like we'll line up all the descendants and pick one lol. Also, its not just any 'Syed' btw, Mehdi will be a descendant of a specific daughter of the prophet (named Fatima). Now thats REALLY hard to verify. So basically, its not something we control.
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 21, 2006 12:39:00 GMT -5
Tell me Sal do you think your God hails a suicide bomber when he reaches the pearly gates? Or does he ask if it was only "infidels" that were killed along with the suicide bomber. In either case is the bomber allowed in? Thanks for your question Ajerzguy, as it is a good question to ask, with not a straight answer. However the question could have been rephrased to be less aggressive dont you think? Also, my God is the same as your God, who is the same God of all people, Muslims or non-Muslims. And btw MMV is correct in saying that Muhammad is not considered a God, and the reason portrayal is forbidden is so that it doesnt lead to worshipping or idoltry of Muhammad. I'd give you the honest answer to your question: 1) Islam is against Tyrants/Oppressors, and highly encourages resistance or proper war against them. Jihad, the kind that the world normally refers to, is a nation-wide action, as opposed to an individual action, against such a tyrant/oppressor. If a soldier should die fighting for the sake of Islam and Justice, he shall be granted Heaven, God permitting. Many people regard Israel as an Oppressor/Tyrant, due to the illegal occupation, displacement of people from homes as well as indiscriminate attacks and killings (Dont take this out on me though plz). 2) Suicide is one of the gravest sins of all in Islam, the same level of adultery. Suicide is guaranteed hell, unless God wills against it for some reason. Atleast in adultery there is a chance that you can repent, but Suicide, once you do it, there is no turning back. 3) Islam enforces us, that even in a Jihad, to never harm the non-soldiers, especially women and children. There are very strong war-ethics that Muslims are required to follow. These suicide bombings, may well violate the rule of not killing women/children. So given all this, what would be Gods conclusion? Well with the given statements above, that Jihad is not individual-based but nation based, Suicide is haram (forbidden), and War ethics are so strong, technically speaking those suicide-bombers would not go to Paradise. However, there is one final clause: Intent. Suppose that individual, is not learned in Islam, though he practices well, and knows all that he has been tought by his 'teachers'. Suppose also that those 'teachers' told him, that if you do this, you are guaranteed heaven. And then that individual, truly believing it, and truly doing it for the sake of pleasing God (only God knows the true intentions), then it is likely imo that God grants the person heaven. There is an accountability ladder in Islam, that I do not wish to explain right now, but for the same one action, one person may go to Heaven, another (perhaps that teacher) to hell. All based on one thing: intent. Also, "acquiring knowledge is a necessity on every Muslim man or woman." This is an authentic Hadeeth (saying of the prophet), which implies that it is our responsibility to ensure that we have the right knowledge to make the decision, so therefore it makes it difficult to say if the intent was enough, though I think it would be for that illerate bomber (who probably had something horrible done in his life by the people he hates; one has to also question the drive for the action. If it is for revenge, the he for sure goes to hell. That is not considered good intent). Thanks for the answer can you do me a favour and rattle of the entire Phrase of Alah al Akhbar, I wrote it down once and then lost the bit of paper. Interesting stuff this. Some westerners are not even aware that Muslims Jews and Christians worship the same God. I've had people say to me stop talking nonsense The muslim God is not Yahewa or God. Alah is a different entity, it makes me laugh. Nice to see someone pulling off the blinkers for a change. Tell Me Salqadri if it's not blasphemous to ask do you Think Alah/Jahewa/God would aprove of all the bloodshed between his followers in the middle East in his name? and in the terrorist acts of the minority of Muslims, or to any of the war that has come about by religion? Be it the Crusades or the conflicts between Shea and Sunni? I think the term of Son of God is misleading, I agree that he maybe the "Son of God" but that does not make him God. I think the Islamic interpritation of the Mesiah is the Correct one, whether he is the literal son of god or mearly his avatar on Earth has very little significance to me. I just see all the faiths as the same in fundementals but that differ in the way they are practiced; practice whichever faith you like whatever leads you to God it's all good. I personally have said the same on different web sites that Suicide bombers are not "proper" muslims because of the two tennants you describe. It does take a long time of brain washing to make a suicide bomber because what your asking them to do goes against the fundemental principles of the Islamic faith.
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