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Post by Stormbringer on Nov 13, 2005 6:55:37 GMT -5
Yeah,I deleted my post-seemed too negative
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 14, 2005 10:22:31 GMT -5
Nonsense storm, that was ranting of the finest quality, almost coherent with a liberal helping of self righteousness; almost brought tears to my eyes; See people nowadays have got this crazy notion that posts have to be well thought out and pointed essays or critiques backed up by powerfuly persuasive links and incisive witt, au contraire mon ami, some of my finest rants have been written at half six in the morning with a colossal hangover or when I'm just in a foul mood. I'm Sure Whip has had his moments too.
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Post by whiplash on Nov 14, 2005 10:34:15 GMT -5
I'm much too cerebral for that.
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Post by jumanji on Nov 15, 2005 9:13:37 GMT -5
I think there is a misconception of what conservatives really stand for. The vast majority of conservatives that I know are all for; equal rights, freedom of speech, the right to practice a religion or not, a strong defense, and the rule of law.
The vast majority are not your so-called warmongers. However, they do not think that everything can be resolved peacefully all the time.
Most liberals appear to think that all crisis' can be solved peacefully even if history proves otherwise. I'm sure the liberal wing of the European nations thought that Hitler could be dealt with rationally and that once he obtained what he thought was Germany's historical lands he would stop his war-like tendencies. We all know that was just a ruse. How many liberals and conservatives of the world turned a blind eye to what was really happening in Europe. The Americans certainly did and that extended the war for years.
It's amazing how a part of the liberal wing here in the US so vehemently carry the "Separation of Church and State" mantra when it comes to Christians and Jews yet promote "Muslim days" in our public schools to sensitize our children to that faith. How a football team can't have a team prayer but yet an entire game can be stopped to allow those of the Muslim faith to pray at sundown.
What I am saying is that liberals have no qualms with double standards, whereas conservatives do.
Has the US made mistakes in the past? Most certainly. However the mistakes it has made was making a choice between two evils.
Can anyone truly say that the world is better off with Iran today than it was under the Shah of Iran? Was Germany better off with the wall up? Should we not have helped the Afghani's in there defense against communism? We can all agree that the world is better off without Germany and Japan (of the 1940's ilk) as world dominator's. With a democratic Russia, Germany, and Japan is the world not more peaceful? Has some of theses choices that the US made backfired? Yes they have; supporting bin Laden has, Saddam is another one (don't forget he was at war with a country that held US prisoners for more than 440 days). The lesson here is that some of these so-called freedom fighters are not fighting for freedom at all. They are fighting to establish there own rule. bin Laden not directly but through the Tali ban.
You may accuse the US of spreading trying to spread democracy, however you can not accuse it of slaughtering it's own people as most communistic and Muslim states have done. How many people were killed by there own government in communist; Russia, China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, North Korea, Uganda. The freedoms that liberals and conservatives have in a free society do or did not exist in those countries, yet we refuse to acknowledge the atrocities and turn on ourselves.
The greatest threat the world has today is radical fundamentalist Islam. There goal is no different than it was during the crusades and the fight for the Holy lands in the middle east. They have one goal and that is to spread there faith throughout the world one country at a time, the same as Hitler intended to do. Today it's Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Bali and the infiltration of those countries that allow them their freedom. Tomorrow it will be the total destruction of Israel, the take over of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, the "istans" of Russia and within 2-3 generations all of Europe. But that's ok because we have liberals who think that won't happen and take up the cause of pacifism.
It's ironic that the Christian and Jewish religions are seen as the liberals (they do not take up arms today) they ask for peace yet the liberals of many societies support the "conservative" movement of Islam and their war against humanity (terror bombings) killing their own and anyone else that gets in their way.
I am glad I will not be alive when it happens and neither will my children or any of their children. Beyond that I don't know anyone therefore I can't feel bad for them.
We reap that which we sow.
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 17, 2005 8:00:43 GMT -5
I agree sometimes there is no other solution but a military one. But I'm afraid it's not always what America does, it's it's attitude to others and how it goes about doing it that gets up many countries noses. America has had a rude awakening to the depth of feeling against its foreign policy, some called it a shock, but I fear Americans hadn't been listening to the way the wind was blowing for years; do I condone the actions of fundamentalists? Absolutely not, do I think they're all nuts and have no reason to hate America, nope.
Trying to ram the idea of democracy down a countries throat is about as likely to receive a positive reaction amongst the disparate Islamic factions as Islamic Fundamentalism is in the west. And besides how ironic is the idea of forcing people to accept its Tennant's?
And as for your ideas that Fundamentalists are trying to force other countries to convert to Islam, that sounds like propaganda of the worst kind, in fact it's is actually directly forbidden in the Koran to force another to convert to Islam, the Islamic faith sees itselves as defenders of it's faith not as antagonists, and western influence it sees as a threat to it's ideals.
Many Americans political views are spoon fed to them by a media that has lost any idea of objectivity, should we be surprised that most Americans have little or no idea about any but there own agendas? And that there actions are although often done with good intentions are actually misguided. To my mind what right does any country have to tell any other country how to live? Iran would probably be perfectly happy with it's government without outside influence, and if it's not it has the same rights to fight for self determinism as we did in the past.
Many African/Islamic countries are in the state there in precisely because of outside influence, causing the problems there and then standing back and saying tut tut there so barbaric, maybe we should meddle some more, see if we cant screw it up even more before our bankers cripple them, luckily we made a nice profit on the weapons we sold, light blue touch paper and retire. You cant just pretend there uneducated savages and we had nothing to do with it and it's solely there fault.
Your country has done many good things in it's history, but it does need a radical rethinking of it's some of it's attitudes. And a more subtle aproach to diplomacy wouldn't go amiss either. Threatening to invade a country believe it or not is not always the best way to get what you want.
What have you been sowing that has brought you to reap the whirlwind?
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Post by Sly_time on Nov 17, 2005 18:04:36 GMT -5
i dont like to get involved with political debates....they always have two sides that can be argued with facts going both for and against each persons stance on a subject but if i am not mistaken is not England an ally of the US and their hands are just as dirty in this...
I may not always agree with my government and currently do not agree with a lot of our military deployments and agendas...especially since i am a veteran of the first war in Iraq...
I also do not believe that democracy is the cure all to all types of civics and there faults....
Even though the US is a political, militaristic, and financial powerhouse we also have many issues herre at home such as illiteracy, homelessness and poverty to name a few....if you compare the numbers of these people we have in our country we would be considered a third world country based on percentages....
In college i was a culturally geography major and have a degree in cultural geography with a minor in international studies...
So i have had the beneift of studying many different aspects of other cultures...and the pleasure of being in 28 countries and living in 2 of them...to really be able to get a good comparison of political, cultural, and religious diversity amongst the world
is there any right way to govern...i dont think so...look what democracy did for russia...pretty much destroyed it...but works wonderfully in other parts of the world...will democracy fix(so called) the middle east...NO...
you can change political and finacial aspects of a region but you cant change the idealisms that stay there...the only way to do this is genocide and i dont even think the US will stoop that far...
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Post by DrShot on Nov 18, 2005 0:14:00 GMT -5
"Think of this: all religions claim they're right and the followers will go to heaven and those who don't to hell. Religions are geographically dependent. Since there's only 1 god and 1 religion that's right you have no chance to go to heaven if you happen to be born in the wrong place in the wrong environment. " Um, I think you need to 'research' polytheism ;D JumanjiYour 'rantings of an idealism' could only be from someone that has had the chance to take off the blinders and look around. I commend you,moreover I agree. SidheOften ,in the past, have I "oh so" enjoyed reading your 6 am diatribes. mostly in contempt,not always. I forget where you reside yet reading your last script I had one though burst into my mind eye. The English Empire. What Nation has decided that 'colonization' is the way to get what they need. Divine right is another great way to rule. I like our Partners in Crime,the British. Strange how so many can decry the evil that US does and not look inward as allies or as foe. Democracy, great concept. So is winning the lottery. Odds of it ever happening first hand, unlikely. Aside from the Fascist in power, who thinks that a totalitarian regime is the way to go? Saddam was re-elected several times, 100% on many occasion. Was this something to boast about? Hmm, I think I am too tired to continue,perhaps stopped making sense awhile back? Just remember, 'the evil that men do ' will never go away until there are no more men. you hear what the new leader of Iran said about how Israel should (needs) be wiped off the face of the Earth. Smart fella,no? I can hear the bombs fallin already. _______ The spell check wanted to replace jumanji with junkie
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 18, 2005 8:03:53 GMT -5
Yep I put us firmly in the realms of the western world and as such are just as guilty. Our country in the past has used colonization and military might to achieve success, although I don't think you can put that in a context with modern day society. Times were different. The point is there may have been an albeit dubious excuse for forcing your ideals on the heathens and heretics then, there isn't now. Precisely the reason why Religion causes so much damage: "Think of this: all religions claim they're right and the followers will go to heaven and those who don't to hell. Religions are geographically dependent. Since there's only 1 god and 1 religion that's right you have no chance to go to heaven if you happen to be born in the wrong place in the wrong environment. " Um, I think you need to 'research' polytheism ;D [/center][/quote] Dr shot's ideas (albeit ironic) of what faith is about reflect just how far from the tennants of there own beliefs religion is. Believe it or not the Abrahamic faiths Judaism,Islam and Christianity all worship the same God. A God that wants to see his people in constant war with each other, death, hatred, bigotry and slaughter burning through the world. Hmm interesting interpretation of the holy scripts. I'm tired of seeing governments or groups using religion as an excuse, which includes America, tired of economics being buried deep under military decision making. And tired of the political/religous rhetoric that passes for truth. Am I knowledgeable on world affairs, definitely not, just a small person with an incredulous eye on the Machiavellian machinations, of the hypocrisy and stupidity that seems to be self sustaining and irreversible. The Story of Cassandra is a good analogy (many of the greatest scholars throughout history have outlined the problems with the ethics of humanity) but like her they were doomed to never be believed or heeded.
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Post by tonia on Nov 18, 2005 12:27:58 GMT -5
Every country has their successes and failures as no country is perfect. I've enjoyed my life living here in the US and will continue to do so.
Now back to the topic.....
This guy is a deviant. He should have been locked up for the rest of his natural life for messing around with a child (I know the article said 13 but still a child). There is nothing that angers me more than people like this. Go get your means elsewhere but leave kids alone.
Why on earth would we give someone like this a chance in society again? I have 2 sons myself and if someone ever attempted something like this on one of them, I wouldn't sit around and wait for the law to do something about it. I would take care of it myself.
As far as murderers go, fry em! There was a case in Florida in the early 90's if I remember correctly. This guy killed a woman. He got sentenced to prison(can't remember exactly how long he got). Well at the time, Florida had done away with their parole policy. This guy got out after 5 years. He killed again. This time they sentenced him to death. Why should someone have to sacrifice their life just to see if some deviant can be rehabilitated?
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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 18, 2005 13:12:51 GMT -5
Abraham Lincoln and his "anti-slavery BS" was considered liberal too. People proudly declare that they are conservative. Even TV networks advertise that they are conservative (FOX). Few liberals call themselves such. In fact, the whole liberal-bashing media is reminiscent of the Red Scare era.... calling someone a liberal nowadays is almost like calling someone a commie in the 60s. I think a moderate outlook is the happy medium. The world isn't black and white, good and evil. I think that the US's lower education percentages vs Western Europe is finally starting to show. That coupled with Europe's forced intermingling (EU, open borders, single currency, different languages/cultures/etc) makes them more open to different ideas and moderate to liberal views... they have to be accepting of ideas/cultures very different from their own. Yet we in the US isolate ourselves in our small suburban nearly segregated communities. Are we isolationists? Does isolation cause extreme self-interest? Or does self-interest cause isolation? It used to be considered a liberal idea to involve ourselves with other nations problems.... WWII is over, the Cold War following is over... yet in this day and age we have to remain involved or be sucked into another catastrophe. errr.... i'm rambling about nothing way off topic bleh Anywho... In response to Mrs Mo's post: Prison and rehabilitation are completely different. Going to jail doesn't automatically rehabilitate someone.
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Post by heroray on Nov 18, 2005 14:27:53 GMT -5
Abraham Lincoln and his "anti-slavery BS" was considered liberal too. People proudly declare that they are conservative. Even TV networks advertise that they are conservative (FOX). Few liberals call themselves such. In fact, the whole liberal-bashing media is reminiscent of the Red Scare era.... calling someone a liberal nowadays is almost like calling someone a commie in the 60s. I think a moderate outlook is the happy medium. The world isn't black and white, good and evil. I think that the US's lower education percentages vs Western Europe is finally starting to show. That coupled with Europe's forced intermingling (EU, open borders, single currency, different languages/cultures/etc) makes them more open to different ideas and moderate to liberal views... they have to be accepting of ideas/cultures very different from their own. Yet we in the US isolate ourselves in our small suburban nearly segregated communities. Are we isolationists? Does isolation cause extreme self-interest? Or does self-interest cause isolation? It used to be considered a liberal idea to involve ourselves with other nations problems.... WWII is over, the Cold War following is over... yet in this day and age we have to remain involved or be sucked into another catastrophe. errr.... i'm rambling about nothing way off topic bleh Anywho... In response to Mrs Mo's post: Prison and rehabilitation are completely different. Going to jail doesn't automatically rehabilitate someone. LMAO Zhenon 1st thing Lincoln going to war with the south was not about freeing the Slaves, That was Secondary 2nd thing is Liberalism = Communism 3rd Look at how all that education and integrating is working in France (something like 1200 car fires a DAY). 4th Throwing someone in jail is not for Their Benefit, But for the Benefit of Society. If more people were to "Rot in Jail" and Jail was truly the most Despicable place to live, That my dear friend would be a deterrent. Too many Martha Stewarts going away to "Camp" and to many Poor people seeing their standard of living increased by serving time.
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Post by Vermillion on Nov 18, 2005 15:42:22 GMT -5
[/quote] LMAO Zhenon 1st thing Lincoln going to war with the south was not about freeing the Slaves, That was Secondary 2nd thing is Liberalism = Communism 3rd Look at how all that education and integrating is working in France (something like 1200 car fires a DAY). 4th Throwing someone in jail is not for Their Benefit, But for the Benefit of Society. If more people were to "Rot in Jail" and Jail was truly the most Despicable place to live, That my dear friend would be a deterrent. Too many Martha Stewarts going away to "Camp" and to many Poor people seeing their standard of living increased by serving time. [/quote] lmao so true ray, especially the 2nd thing
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Lord_Phan
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Member of the Nation of Domination
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Post by Lord_Phan on Nov 18, 2005 17:23:32 GMT -5
Are you insane Zhe? Anti-Slavery movement was led by the Catholics and other RIGHT wingers.
In every country other then the U.S. Left wingers promote themselves as such. In the way that Right Wingers do in the States. I think I'd rather be in the States right now.
Left winger create poverty and then denounce it. Their Rhetoric is used then to get those same impoverished people to vote for them, and/or in most cases create a militant revolution to overthrow the government and install themselves.
For those ignorent of the facts I'll give them:
To the guy who stated that the crusades were to install our beliefs upon others you are sadly mistaken. Like all Abramhamic Faiths we are forbidden from forcing anyone to join our faith. Nor would we want to. The Catholic Mission is to spread the word, those who want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven may join. It is a very LONG and Exhausting process for someone to become a member of the Catholic Church.
The Reasons for the First Crusades: Repelling the Muslim Hordes who had invaded our lands. Bringing the War to them. Weakening of their frontiers by attacking the center of their empire. Protecting our Brothers and Sisters of the Orthodox Church in Byzantium from the Muslim Horde.(Yes I know some Venician Traders would later con one of our Military Leaders into actually crushing Byzantium, Bad Apples everywhere) To protect our pilgrimes to Jerusalem, Bethlahem et all who were being attacked and/or forced out by the Muslim Leaders. And Last but Certainly Not least. To stop the Catholic Kings from Warring amongst themselves.
Taking of the Holy Land Contrary to Popular belief was not the objective. It was the Key. Feudal Lords from all over took up the call. Stemmed back the Hordes, who broke up into smaller Kingdoms. We ruled the Holy Land for many years but were eventaully pushed out.
Later Crusades such as the Last one were faught against the Ottoman Empire for their attacks, occupation of christian lands and most importantly Enslaving Christians.
It should be pointed out, since people will no doubt say that the portugese and Spanish started the african slave trade(Which they didn't, they mass produced it to the americas). And whereas they were Catholic in name. They having been poluted by the Muslims for 300 years(And actually racially become part berber) adopted many Muslim traits and customs. Slavery was one of them.
To those who said that "Thou Shalt No Kill" would in some way bar us from killing heathen, disgusting villains, freaks, serial killers, rapists, pedophiles or any other such scum.
a) The Ten Commandments were for the Nomadic Tribe. B) God's Law of Civilization was decreed in the next book. Leviticus. c) Many Laws of Leviticus were made invalid by the Christ such as the laws of Food.(Mostly the laws on food were made because those foods will kill you. For Example if Pork is not cooked at a certain temperature, you will die.) d) The Penaly for "Thou Shalt Not Kill" amongst the Nomadic Tribe, was Death e) There are more death Penalties in Leviticus then the U.S., Canadian and British Codes of Laws put together. f) "Thou Shalt Not Kill" Refers to the innocent. Those who are followers of God.
Those who've never read the Bible Sidhe, Cruise, Should not speak of it. You do not understand it nor do you even comprehend the fact there are more books and theological material then the Catholic Church chose to put in the Bible Nor do you understand US. Do not spill your rhetoric hear. Your Arrogant attitudes and self-rightousness are disgusting.
Getting rid of the evil in this world and sending them to God's Judgement will protect the innocent. Only idiots and those stupid enough to believe in Liberalist Maxism could ever differ on these opinions.
If you ever actually read Marx or other Communist Literature you'd puke.
Liberalism is Regressive not Progressive. Hurting the people and causing chaos. Which is what the Communists told their followers to do. Make the world ripe for Revolution.
That is all.
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Lord_Phan
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Post by Lord_Phan on Nov 18, 2005 17:26:04 GMT -5
Word is England is arresting Refugee claiments from Iraq and sending them back.
France is the most liberal country around and look at it now.
Liberals are racists. Judging people on their skin colour or ethnic background.
Right Wingers judge you on your moral/Religious beliefs.
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Lord_Phan
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Member of the Nation of Domination
Posts: 52
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Post by Lord_Phan on Nov 18, 2005 17:27:42 GMT -5
Every country has their successes and failures as no country is perfect. I've enjoyed my life living here in the US and will continue to do so. Now back to the topic..... This guy is a deviant. He should have been locked up for the rest of his natural life for messing around with a child (I know the article said 13 but still a child). There is nothing that angers me more than people like this. Go get your means elsewhere but leave kids alone. Why on earth would we give someone like this a chance in society again? I have 2 sons myself and if someone ever attempted something like this on one of them, I wouldn't sit around and wait for the law to do something about it. I would take care of it myself. As far as murderers go, fry em! There was a case in Florida in the early 90's if I remember correctly. This guy killed a woman. He got sentenced to prison(can't remember exactly how long he got). Well at the time, Florida had done away with their parole policy. This guy got out after 5 years. He killed again. This time they sentenced him to death. Why should someone have to sacrifice their life just to see if some deviant can be rehabilitated? Exactly
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Post by whiplash on Nov 18, 2005 18:09:30 GMT -5
Phan says:
"Left winger create poverty and then denounce it. Their Rhetoric is used then to get those same impoverished people to vote for them, and/or in most cases create a militant revolution to overthrow the government and install themselves. "
This is exactly correct, at least in the US. The more dependancy in the country, the more they like it. That's why they are constantly trying to expand the role of government. It's also why they want high taxes so that they can punish the achievers and give handouts to the "oppressed" and thereby get their votes. It's also why they oppose stricter immigration policy. The more dependants in the country the better for them.
They masquarade as the defenders of the oppressed. Total bull! History proves this. The civil rights movement of the '60's was opposed by the liberals (Democrats). Southern Democratic Governors defended the "traditional" way of life. It took a Republican Congress to pass the Civil Rights Act.
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Lord_Phan
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Post by Lord_Phan on Nov 18, 2005 18:43:45 GMT -5
To add to your point on immigration Whip. The greater the supply of workers, the less all workers will be paid. The Republic of Ireland ended unemployment completely a couple years ago. Going from one of the poorest countries in Europe to one of the richest. It took Seven years of pain to get there. THROUGH RIGHT WING POLICIES. IE: Severly cuting Corporate Taxes to encourage businesses to develop and enter and thus create jobs.
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 19, 2005 7:43:11 GMT -5
Your right Phan I've never read the bible Phan contrary to your opinion, I am not a liberal, I am where most decent people should be right in the middle. Conservatism taken to the extremes you seem to advocate is as dangerous as liberalism taken to the extremes. I have read the bible and you make my point for me. If the old testament was written for a nomadic tribe. It's thousands of years old and it's tenants whilst in the main are laudable are also hopelessly antiquated, much like fanatical adherents to it are. Religion has been both a blessing and a curse to humanity. I'm sure you'll carry on believing that your church has never been politically driven and has never done any wrong or perpetrated any evil in its name. Good for you, history would beg to differ. When Jerusalem was taken in the crusades they killed every man woman and child in the name of god, at one particularly gruesome battle, they roasted and ate the women and children on spits. Saladin was in the crusades the only honorable man among them, releasing prisoners and behaving with in the chivalric code the knights held so dear. When Canaan was taken the Israelites claimed that God told them to kill all of them even the women and babes. Most likely they went on a lust driven rampage and then blamed it all on God telling them to do so, it's in the bible so it's fine. The Spanish Inquisition etc etc etc, the list is endless. Religion itself is not to blame it is mankind's use of it as an excuse in many cases that are. It's fine to ignore the tenants of Islam about both killing yourself and killing innocents, because martyrdom is seen as holy. It's also fine to ignore the tenants of Christianity about turning the other cheek, about all life being sacred, because the laws in the old testament that are redundant which you yourself admitted prove that. Religious wars, third biggest killer in Europe's history after famine and plague. Nice moniker for the holier than though bestest religion ever. Religion if followed assiduously is a huge benefit to mankind, unfortunately mankind has neither the capacity or the inclination to do so, thankfully religion and politics are now no longer such close bed fellows, at least in the west. What I want to know is how you can be a a staunch right winger and a Christian. Mutually exclusive surely. Or did you just gloss over the ideas about karitas, charity, the love of your fellow man? It does so amaze me mans ability to read the bible and ignore the parts that are troubling to him. It is of course gods plan to have his children war on each other in his name and in the name of greed and politics. Just as it's Gods plan to let us stand in judgment and to take life. George Bush is no more a Christian than I am a Muslim. Osamah Bin Laden is no more a Muslim than I am a communist. Sadly it seems you can't be a politician and follow your faith. It seems you chose to do one or the other. But woe unto you that are that are rich, for you have recieved your consolation. But woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger But I say unto you which hear, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you. Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which dispitefuly use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other. For if you love them which love you, what thank have ye? For sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom you hope to recieve,what thank have ye? For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye thy enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the highest: for he is kind unto the thankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father is also merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Your right being liberal is bad and being conservative to the core is good. How silly of me I wonder where I got that idea from?
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Post by whiplash on Nov 19, 2005 10:15:22 GMT -5
Well, GWB certainly turns the other cheek often when it comes to attacks from Liberals.
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Lord_Phan
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Post by Lord_Phan on Nov 19, 2005 10:34:34 GMT -5
Lies, Rhetoric and propaganda. hmmmm.. You remind me of the crazy conspiracy theory drunks at the bar.
Either you're a plain LIAR, Just plain STUPID or a complete Lunatic.
And everyone can see it. You can't prove any of what you said, because it's not true.
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