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Post by SirPartyMan on Mar 14, 2007 21:29:13 GMT -5
In a separate thread, a consensus developed to include a Modern Era Team event in the next CCC.
The purpose of this thread is just to discuss the ruleset.
Here is what Mookie originally proposed:
A) Standard TBG, Low Sea, Cylindrical Wrap On B) 3v3 C) 65 Turns, Medium Timer D) No Germany, No Nukes, No Commandos
Several people suggested a No Spy rule as well, so I'll throw that in to the discussion as item
E) No Spys
Each and Every one of these five parameters (A thru E) is debatable. In your followup posts be specific as to which parameter(s) you would change. You can also add a new rule, if you like, call if (F).
Thanks.
SPM
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Post by ironclad on Mar 14, 2007 21:48:37 GMT -5
if you play on fractal(low sea/standard map) all you need to ban is nukes, dont understand why so many like it on tbg. More fair I geuss but less strategic?
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Post by ironclad on Mar 14, 2007 21:56:25 GMT -5
hub is good on modern also
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moineau
Warrior
Administrator
Posts: 330
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Post by moineau on Mar 15, 2007 4:18:37 GMT -5
Yeah Hub can be funny, like Ring or Wheel. We have already lot of 3vs3, why not a 2vs2? C) 65 Turns, Medium Timer----> ok D) No Germany, No Nukes, No Commandos---> why no commandos? ok for the rest. E) No Spys----> ok
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Post by stilgar on Mar 15, 2007 4:45:05 GMT -5
A) Hub fine or Wheel B) 3v3 or 2v2 (I don't know actually lol)
Agreed with the rest C, D, E
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Post by Bantams on Mar 15, 2007 9:15:24 GMT -5
Hubs Good B)3v3 Good C)Fine D)Ok but why no Commandos E)If No spy rule It should be a general Ladder rule till its fixed IMO F) May I suggest this is Event is on Saturday so all Clans can have a go at it ;D
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Post by MookieNJ on Mar 15, 2007 10:28:54 GMT -5
Personally I find Hub to be the worst of the MP maps included with the game. It's far too builder friendly and has really limited attack options.
The no commando rule, for Modern TBG as suggested, is pretty obvious when you think about it. With a huge front, railroads all over the place, and units starting with Blitz, you need to keep 3 units in just about every city to keep them safe from 1 Commando unit, and 5 units to keep them safe from a stack of 2 Commandos. Blitz Commandos on railroads are too strong and not very much fun.
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Post by eiffel on Mar 15, 2007 13:05:27 GMT -5
Don't remove sea action from late eras ! And what is the reason for banning nukes ? That's an interesting choice to go for nuke or just don't tech at all and kill.... don't remove fun, choice and strategy in every event/game we play...
Fractal could be an interesting map, you never know what it will look like, something reminding me of civ3.
So i'd say :
Fractal 3v3 3 cities elim (since teams aren't grouped in fractal) no city razing OFF NO germany nukes ON commando ON (maybe a problem in TBG only) medium timer NO spies
Pangea/Balanced 2 cities elim with no city razing ON is fun as well. That's how the modern event was played some CCCs ago (but small map was to small, sometimes not enough room to plant the 3 starting settlers).
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Post by krill on Mar 15, 2007 15:16:02 GMT -5
A) Standard TBG, Low Sea, Cylindrical Wrap On B) 3v3 C) 65 Turns, Medium Timer D) No Germany, No Nukes, No Commandos E) No Spys
A) The reason Fractal is a bad map, and by bad I mean 100% unfair, is because quite often one team are placed on seperate islands and the other team on one super continent. Giving one team teh majoprity of the land and being able to freely support eachother in the event of an invasion would make the event a coin toss.
Hub also has a few balance issues; if the front players oil is on the water towards their opponents it is quite easy for them to lose that oil as their opponents will sit on it with their battleships. That really screws up the team without that source of oil because one player can't build tanks etc until the back players have cleared that tile and have started to protect it, and that takes more than enough time for the front player to be killed by a tank rush.
B) Ideally this could be played as a 5v5 on a large TBG map, but the Reason 3v3 is suggested is because of lag.
C) About right.
D) No Germans are because of the uber panzers, so :b: No Nukes is because the first team to nukes wins, because the nuked party can't clean up the pollution. No Commandos has been explained above.
E) Probably for the best.
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Post by ironclad on Mar 15, 2007 15:33:56 GMT -5
A) The reason Fractal is a bad map, and by bad I mean 100% unfair, is because quite often one team are placed on seperate islands and the other team on one super continent. Giving one team teh majoprity of the land and being able to freely support eachother in the event of an invasion would make the event a coin toss. High Sea standard map, I dont see this happening. even if you are 1v3 on a island which should be rare if we go with probability no? Or likewise you can do it on low sea where most everyone wil be on same continent. even if it is 1v3 on a island, which is rare, what is stopping someone from dropping the other team with boats, considering you start with units.
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Post by venceslas on Mar 15, 2007 15:59:20 GMT -5
Nuke is not the ultimate solution in modern, if you go for nuke, you have many chances to be killed before getting it.
chris.
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Post by krill on Mar 15, 2007 19:27:05 GMT -5
IC: That's not the point. That can happen anyway, but all three civs on one continent can defend the one boated person due to railroads, but the three on seperate islands can't. The problem is the three seperate can't defend, and so have been screwed over by the map generator. No Thanks, I'd rather play a fair game. Vencelas: The fact is if your team can build nukes and you're opponent can't then you've won because you can nuke them back into the stoneage and they can't stop you. They can't even build SDI. Buy some nukes, throw them at their front cities and kill them. Job done. No thought involved .
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Post by eiffel on Mar 15, 2007 21:35:13 GMT -5
If your team can and the other one can't, it's because they chose to rush and kill fast instead of being able to nuke after 40 turns. That's a choice, a strategy.
About fractal, teams weren't grouped in civ3 and it was still playable and, imo, funnier because of surprise and excitement. Raising city elim to 3 is a way to compensate a possible risk. Still, modern is one of the best era for sea action and i think a map like fractal/c_continent/islands/pangea is the best choice.
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Post by cryptococcus on Mar 16, 2007 2:46:21 GMT -5
TBG Modern, Blah how boring. I agree with eiffel and ironclad here.
BTW, civ is not always fair and don't give me nuts that you can make it fairer.
PS. Why put battleships on sea oil when you don't even have plastics?
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Post by longhorn on Mar 16, 2007 8:48:30 GMT -5
I agree with Eiffel, Ironclad and Crypto here: that TBG sounds like a REAL YAWNER!
Nukes fractal sea battle etc sounds a lot more fun. Count my vote to second Eiffel's suggestions.
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Post by Gogf on Mar 16, 2007 9:15:15 GMT -5
A) Standard TBG, Low Sea, Cylindrical Wrap On
Let me preface this by saying that I probably like boats more than any other player on the ladder. Modern boats are especially fun because they're fast but there are not overpowered airplaned sentry nets.
When I first played a modern game on TBG, I didn't expect very much out of it. We never really did a lot with land combat on Fractal (how exactly can we do that?), so I didn't have a lot of experience with it. To my amazement, the map was actually really fun.
Unlike on Fractal, where launching a boat drop with a couple artillery and a massive amount of marines is probably the most effective attacking strategy, Team Battleground allows a huge range of strategies. There's a gigantic land front between the teams, which allows a ton of different angles of attack.
There's also the issue of ending up with a couple of your enemy on a continent on Fractal.
I also don't think hub is a very good choice. I haven't really enjoyed it the few times I've played teamers on it, which includes a couple modern games. The problem is that attacking is too hard, and is primarily limited to quick marine attacks from one front player against another. These attacks are also virtually impossible to stop because they can usually reach across the short ocean in one turn.
Hub games I've been in generally degenerate into building contests with both teams putting absurd amounts of units in their front cities. It's impossible to attack across the land, and sea attacks against a very well fortified front are extremely difficult. With boats and land warfare being so fun in modern, why get rid of both of those fun aspects of the game?
I've heard this argument before, and I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. "Civ is inherently somewhat unfair, so we might as well forget about trying to make the settings we use fair"? I don't think I can agree with that, because there's a huge difference between getting an extra food resource in your capital and starting on a continent with the entire other team. We play CTONs and use balanced resources because they're more fair than the other possibilities.How much fun is it being stuck on a continent with three enemy civs while your teammates both get tiny islands? How much fun would it be being knocked out in the first round for something totally outside your control?
B) 3v3
The most fun modern games are probably 5v5, but that would be extremely laggy and it would be difficult for a lot of clans to scrape that many players together at this time.
C) 65 Turns, Medium Timer
This is generally what we play with.
D) No Germany
Panzers are too strong on defense on TBG. We probably don't need to ban them if we end up playing on fractal, but I'd hate to be stuck up a continent with the other team while they send Panzers at me.
They essentially have the same bonus as cossacks.
No Nukes
Krill was right that nukes are a very powerful and unstoppable collateral damage weapon that you can't use on enemy stacks in your land. But he forgot the most important point. You can't remove fallout in Modern. The first team to get nukes can nuke the enemy's uranium and prevent them from ever reconnecting it because of fallout on the tile. The game is essentially over if only one team will ever have access to nukes, so the entire game degenerates into a tech race to Rocketry.
No Commandos
This is another one that's unnecessary on Fractal. However, if we do decide to play on TBG, we should ban Commandos. Tanks start with Blitz, so a single Commando Tank has the possibility of killing two city defenders. If a team clusters all of their generals together, they'll be able to take any back city without much problem. Who has the capacity to put 7 units in every city?
E) No Spys
Well, I have two issies with spies. First, they make having giant sentry nets too easy. Modern is nice because you can't have easy sentry nets with airplanes, but spies get rid of that fact. Second, there's no way to get rid of them. There's no real counter to spies pillaging your resources with one second left in the turn. I would be okay if we allowed spies, but I think the game would be a lot more fun without them.
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Post by Gogf on Mar 16, 2007 9:23:57 GMT -5
I agree with Eiffel, Ironclad and Crypto here: that TBG sounds like a REAL YAWNER! I'm not sure why everybody thinks this. I like TBG modern because there's so much fighting involved !
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Post by longhorn on Mar 16, 2007 9:47:43 GMT -5
I agree with Eiffel, Ironclad and Crypto here: that TBG sounds like a REAL YAWNER! I'm not sure why everybody thinks this. I like TBG modern because there's so much fighting involved ! OK Goggy, I read your post and explanation of TBG and tried to give it the benefit of the doubt, but all that comes to mind is 'Yawn Yawn Yawn followed by ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz'
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Post by MookieNJ on Mar 16, 2007 11:06:18 GMT -5
OK Goggy, I read your post and explanation of TBG and tried to give it the benefit of the doubt, but all that comes to mind is 'Yawn Yawn Yawn followed by ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz' Don't knock it until you've tried it! I felt the same way Gogf did, that this would be a pretty boring game type. However, it was actually quite fun and we played a decent number of these games to come up with the most fun and balanced settings.
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Post by ironclad on Mar 16, 2007 11:40:09 GMT -5
Well if your gonna play it on tbg, might as well play ren and replace the tanks with knights and the artillery with cats. Only differnce I see then between the two eras is super easy expansion. A rush is very hard to pull off.. the other team has to noob it up pretty bad. And all those bans its not even modern its ren with diff units!
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