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Post by Levi on May 1, 2006 9:36:48 GMT -5
I thought I would put some of my time towards working on a future start MOD for the MP community. In c3c, the future start was a very popular game, but in civ4, this does not seem to be the case. I thought I would try to learn to mod civ4 with this project. The problem is I need suggestions as to what would make civ4's future era more entertaining as a competitive game. So far I have decided to change the technology of satellites so that the entire map is not revealed. Normally when you start civ4 in the future era, the fog of war does not exist because the technology of satellites allows you to see it. If you have no fog of war, players race for the key resources and ignore the rest of the map. IMHO, Half the fun of the game is exploring the map and discovering a resource you need. I am considering making a satellite unit that you can build that will reveal the map but haven't figured out if that is possible yet. Other things that I noticed, in the future era, that might need a MOD fix include: - Later religions get a free missionary, which gives an advantage to players that get a late religion as opposed to an early one.
- Workers cannot build airbases.
- No cruise missiles.
- No regicide or King unit
I am certain there are many other things people would like to see in a future era mp game, so please post some suggestions for me here. I was never a future start guru, so this is a MOD that I need help on from the people that were the aces at future start in c3c.
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Post by Tony on May 1, 2006 13:17:10 GMT -5
If someone could make a proper future mod that would be great, infact i think it would definatly make civ4 alot more bareable for those that have shunned it.
I have played quite a few 1v1 futures in the last month, and in all honesty they are dreadful.
As im not sure how all the things im about to suggest would pan out, so maybe a few drafted would be needed as CIV4.
1) Fog of war added 2) Bombers need to become more powerful and leathal, with fighters being alot stronger and able to control sky. Currently what use do fighters have? why are they even called fighters, lazy programming IMO. 3) Cruise missiles that injure all units and are leathal 4) New cites should have nothing in them, forge and granary at most. Size 5 cities only stay size 5 if you settle in flood plains, otherwise they starve. 5) EDIT - Wouldnt work after i gave it more thought 6) Units you start with, and that can be built off the bat, ie the mech infantry is silly, 2 Move is silly enough but its soo damm strong and no way to kill it. 7) Rushing improvments is kinda lame too, you stick your science on zero and your rushing a factroy/unit a turn 8) Bombers should definatly create creators, if you dont prepare to be bombed you should pay the price, HARD 9) Carriers should be able to carry all air units. 10) A technolgy should take the need to keep millatry presance for happiess away, leaving empty cities is a skill. 11) A helicopter that can drop behind enermy lines would be nice. 12) Air units only destrying Defense in a city means they know where your about to attack, it should be able to destroy certain city improvments. 13) The second calture expansion should be expensive, and the 3rd too expensive to even achive. Expanding 3-4 times and being able to see so far out makes attacking by suprise too difficult. 14) Taking the game to nukes shuould be harder to do, and harder to prepare for. 15) I think the choice of civics should be alot harder, this is where i think civics are inferier to governments, but just my personal opnion
Im not sure how all of these will work, but i think they are needed in a draft version
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Post by tommynt on May 1, 2006 15:55:32 GMT -5
i m with all of tonys suggestion
and might add: 1. weaken mech inf - it s resourceless and superstrong - i should be beaten by a tank and for sure by a MA - but as gp unit it even beats MA after triple up maybe interduce TOW instead MA as resourceless unit again and make mech res dependent (not totaly sure on that) 2. start with size 2 or 3 and granny anf forge sounds reasonable 3. 2 settlers enough imo. 4. no or much less gold in start 5. paratropers d be nice 6. another production inceasing building like the manuplant in civ3 7. cheaper workers - (u shoud have slower start but then there need to be a way to go big and improve land kinda fast) 8. some less movments for ships (as maps are usually kinda small) 9.ya this bombers gotta be able to f**k up land from other - craters which take long to be worked are only way i think. 10. not sure about the fighter / flak concept - it shouild be more like in civ3 11.bombers gotta be able to kill units 12. not sure about sdi - maybe more expensive 13. is there a way to stop multiple religions in less player games? 14. maybe increase power of marines and inf a bit or as said just weaken the mechs - there should be different units to choose not only mechs.
damn i ll go reinstal civ3 and take ossmans and do a missle siphi attack on some king (thats so much more thrilling as this who can draft rush chop more mechs as fut is atm)
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Post by Levi on May 6, 2006 17:28:24 GMT -5
OK, as an update, I have my future start mod so far doing the following: - Zero starting gold
- The tech "Satellites" no longer removes the fog of war
- Every civ starts with only one settler and nothing else
- Bombers and Stealth Bombers are now lethal
- Bombers and Stealth Bombers can land on and attack from Carriers
I am about to start working on making craters when bombers attack infrastructure.
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Post by Necrominousss on May 7, 2006 3:59:43 GMT -5
I think it should be a 3 or 4 or 5 step process to crater instead of just one bomb and the square is useless. First bomb run takes out mine, farm or whatever improvement, Next bomb run takes out road. Next run makes crater and -1 food. next run makes second crater and -1 food or -1 hammer. If you have railroad that would be first bombed and add another step. If fort on square that would be bombed first and add another step(see paragraph below).
Something I have mentioned before and have heard no response if its possible or not is to be able to build a fort on square without destroying improvement. With improved bomber that would be needed and would add another step to bombing resource.
So are you going to just be tweaking the number or are you considering making new units also?
Will putting back the fog of war automatically have the huts be there like ancient?
A few extra moves on the explorer might be nice.
Ive been playing today with doubling the culture to expand borders and it seems to work more like i think it should.
I also notice that taking a non spiritual civ seems foolish. Maybe you could add that trait to all civs that aren't spiritual and all the ones that already are add a trait to them you think would balance them, giving all civs 3 traits. Is that possible or is is it even needed? What does everyone else think?
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Post by Levi on May 7, 2006 8:24:10 GMT -5
I think it should be a 3 or 4 or 5 step process to crater instead of just one bomb and the square is useless. First bomb run takes out mine, farm or whatever improvement, Next bomb run takes out road. Next run makes crater and -1 food. next run makes second crater and -1 food or -1 hammer. If you have railroad that would be first bombed and add another step. If fort on square that would be bombed first and add another step(see paragraph below). I will see what I can do to make infrastructure bombing more of a gradual process. not sure what I can or can't do in regards to this yet. Something I have mentioned before and have heard no response if its possible or not is to be able to build a fort on square without destroying improvement. With improved bomber that would be needed and would add another step to bombing resource. I will see if I can make the fortress improvement overlay a normal tile improvement such as a farm or a mine. Again, I am not sure what I can do in this regard. So are you going to just be tweaking the number or are you considering making new units also? I am more than willing to make new units if there is a need for them. Will putting back the fog of war automatically have the huts be there like ancient? I have not seen any huts yet in any of my tests, so I must assume that the answer is no, given the way I have removed the fog of war. I am not sure there is any need for huts in a future start mod. A few extra moves on the explorer might be nice. I agree, it should not be any problem for me to maybe double the movement of an explorer. Ive been playing today with doubling the culture to expand borders and it seems to work more like i think it should. I also notice that taking a non spiritual civ seems foolish. Maybe you could add that trait to all civs that aren't spiritual and all the ones that already are add a trait to them you think would balance them, giving all civs 3 traits. Is that possible or is is it even needed? What does everyone else think? I am not sure why you would want to double the cultural growth of a city in a future start mod. Perhaps you could clarify your reasoning on this to me. It is certainly possible to give every civ in a future start mod the spiritual trait, but again, I don't understand why you think spiritual civs are so vital. One of the projects I am going to work on for this future mod is to deal with religion. right now religions are doled out randomly and if you are fortunate enough to get a late religion, you get a free missionary. While that is nice in an ancient start, it really doesn't make much sense in a future start. Currently I am thinking of making religions available not through tech research, but by building special religious wonders.
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on May 7, 2006 8:30:04 GMT -5
OK, as an update, I have my future start mod so far doing the following: - Zero starting gold
- The tech "Satellites" no longer removes the fog of war
- Every civ starts with only one settler and nothing else
- Bombers and Stealth Bombers are now lethal
- Bombers and Stealth Bombers can land on and attack from Carriers
I am about to start working on making craters when bombers attack infrastructure. The last two items on that list are utterly imbalancing, IMO, given the amount of damage these units are capable of and the fact that they do collateral damage besides. Oil has returned to its place as the "God" resource. Bomber/Stealth bomber can reduce a stack of three to five units to minimal health in only three strikes. The rate of "shoot down" is far lower, allowing a player to easily shred a stack of Mechanized Infantry. Modern Armor would be butchered. I would urge you to discover the same thing for yourself, however.
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Post by tommynt on May 7, 2006 10:16:36 GMT -5
FP i really wonder about your post - arent u a fan of mixed unit stcks - atm it espacially al about mech mech mech - and maybe some bombers if u defend - and oerpowered sealanding (impsible to avoid to du huge movements)
i think i have hardly seen this new flak guy used - dont even know how he s called
craters and leathel make bombers also an attacking alternative - and if they get too powerful give em just less attacking power - about oil isue - there should be other powerful units like missles not needing oil - but race to res was one of the big thrills in civ3 fut
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Post by Necrominousss on May 7, 2006 12:23:29 GMT -5
Ive been playing today with doubling the culture to expand borders and it seems to work more like i think it should.[/u][/sub] This is what i wrote.
By this I mean it would take 2x the culture before your city culture boarder would expand. To me the culture boarder expand incredible fast imo.
Does that clarify what I meant to say?
Of course with some bigger better continent maps this might not be necessary.
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Post by Necrominousss on May 7, 2006 12:41:20 GMT -5
The one problem I see with the resource gathering is the colonize option is no longer available, making a not so good starting location even harder to defend.
As far as the bomber being too powerful, all is needed is a resourceless mobile SAM. We were shown the way but some chose not to follow. To take it to the extreme the mobile SAM could have 2 moves and intercept stealth 50% of the time. At less then half the cost, how powerful would the bombers be then. On top of that the mech inf intercepts 20% of time.
There is no airbase option which makes the bomber more of a defending unit then as attacking one.
Speaking of airbase, that is needed but should take about 3 turns to build. That instabuild airbase was too brutal and not realistic. It take time to build a landing strip for stealths.
If you do bring back the airbase and someone ships something into that base there could be a chance of it being shot down. If airbase is in sight of your cultural boarders there should be a 20% chance of it being shot down. People shouldn't be able to fly units in at will without some risk. That's more real to life war also. I think civ2 had something like that. Thats another way to lesson the airbase without doing away with it.
I doubt all this is possible with a mod but maybe plant some seeds for Civ 5
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Post by Levi on May 7, 2006 13:48:31 GMT -5
The last two items on that list are utterly imbalancing, IMO, given the amount of damage these units are capable of and the fact that they do collateral damage besides. Oil has returned to its place as the "God" resource. Bomber/Stealth bomber can reduce a stack of three to five units to minimal health in only three strikes. The rate of "shoot down" is far lower, allowing a player to easily shred a stack of Mechanized Infantry. Modern Armor would be butchered. I would urge you to discover the same thing for yourself, however. Generally criticisms about the balance of a mod should be reserved until the mod is complete imho. Its not like the future start game that civ4 comes with is even vaguely balanced now. At the very worst, making the civ4 future start reminiscant of the civ3 future start game seems to be welcomed by most of the mp community.
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Post by Tony on May 7, 2006 14:35:44 GMT -5
What Fried writes is true, but as i said in my post you need bomber intercepters, ie Fighters. Those that dont prepare BEFORE the bombing starts deserves to be slaughtered IMO.
Maybe take off there collateral damage ability, bombers main purpose should be to destroy work and stop choking, this must be acompanied with craters IMO.
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Post by Tony on May 10, 2006 21:37:58 GMT -5
Oh yeah and how could i 4get, it HAS to be regicide. Elim in future is just plain WRONG, but then agian im not sure how this would work as you can see units in cites, maybe that would improve things maybe it would make things worse.
Also not all air units should be able to recon.
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