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Post by Cobra on Oct 31, 2005 16:07:48 GMT -5
I just lost in a 7 man ffa not due to lack of skill but do to lack of decent land and resources.
I had decent growing land 1 cow and corn... but two of my neighbors had 3 flood plains 2 ivory 1 corn horses and bornze..
I had not one resource and the best unit i could make at the time was archers.
The game is suppose to be equal starts equal resource and what not. But i don't care if your Fried himself he can't win with mediocre land starting next to someone that has 2 ivories 3 flood plains 1 corn horses and bronze when you have nothing.
Is a waste of time to even sit there and try. by the time my non producing civ even got able to do anything i was already defeated.
something needs done about that. I am not sure what but somethingl.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Oct 31, 2005 17:33:32 GMT -5
What map was it Cobra? Some maps are designed for equal starts and some are a dice roll. Maps like mirror, north/south, east/west, teambattle ground, ring and some others are much better for equal starts. Others are "fractal" based like pangea, lakes, normal continents, are not guarenteed to produce "equal" starts. They won't be totally lopsided as Sirian did build some "normalization" into the scripts but trying to "tame" a fractal based map is a tall order.
If you want a equal start on a continents map use "custom continents" as that script lets you chose how many contenients and in team games, how many continents per team.
Take a look at Sirians map reference in the mods section for more info.
CS
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Post by Canucksoldier on Oct 31, 2005 17:42:04 GMT -5
I had a similar thing in Sparta's tournament on the weekend vs Cruise, he had horses within his cap and the best I had was copper but not until my second culture expansion. I could have probably have won against most other people but he managed to choke me enough in the early game that I never really was going to win, I did put on a "clinic" on the use of spears vs horse archers though But it was a uphill battle in the end as his production and numerical city advantage after slowing my growth down paid off, and he elimed me with 14 turns to go, with stacks of HA's that didn't have the production to counter even with spear and sword filled cities. I just got to Feudalism at the end but didn't have enough Longbows to turn the tide, and I was losing on pts anyway. I was a very fun game and a battle to the end anyway... and Cruise lost to Reptile in the end in a similar scenario so the map generator does strike everyone equally CS
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Lord_Phan
Settler
Member of the Nation of Domination
Posts: 52
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Post by Lord_Phan on Oct 31, 2005 21:21:03 GMT -5
Be glad you died Cob, I was in between Trinity and Yilar that game, they destroyed my land, and I only barely survived. with Inca's UU and Egypt with Horses in Cap, I had to build both Warriors and Archers to fight their respective units off. 50 turns in I still had 1 city! Finally I got Ironworking and found Iron in my land, but had to fight to get to it STILL. In the end I was last on points and none of the strong civs were going at each other.
Ended up just leaving the room, when I came back nothing had changed.
Boring ass game I'll tell ya, they could of done me a favour and finished me off at least cuz after the two of them attacked me early I was done.
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reptile
Worker
in desperate need of a new avatar
Posts: 106
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Post by reptile on Oct 31, 2005 21:27:09 GMT -5
People need to be aware that "pangaea" is not the only way to go (in fact it´s rather a no-go for mp). When you get away from this map several other choices suddenly appear . Btw, I won the game against cruise by the power of a woodsman II warrior that took his empty 2nd city. It was needed though, because Cruise had copper 2 tiles away from his capital and I had neither bronce nor iron - my 2nd city was placed right on horses though.
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mezi
Settler
Posts: 23
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Post by mezi on Nov 1, 2005 4:09:40 GMT -5
i too have noticed that with soo many less units ever built, that being w/o resources is downright devistating. seems their should be a senerio or path of tec that allows at least 1 decent unit to be made to counter others with resource at a reasonably early point
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Post by Stormbringer on Nov 1, 2005 4:59:52 GMT -5
Here's hoping the modders will come up with a ZOC included scenario. I've had the game 2 days & just played a couple 1v1 w/Nitro,other than that i'm just familiarizing myself w/it in SP,& the really strange part is no more chokepoints.Sure if yer at war,but now you can't keep the AI's oughta yer land anymore during peacetime.They just move right thru ya as if yer a ghost Frustrating
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Post by yilar on Nov 1, 2005 7:25:35 GMT -5
Be glad you died Cob, I was in between Trinity and Yilar that game, they destroyed my land, and I only barely survived. with Inca's UU and Egypt with Horses in Cap, I had to build both Warriors and Archers to fight their respective units off. 50 turns in I still had 1 city! Finally I got Ironworking and found Iron in my land, but had to fight to get to it STILL. In the end I was last on points and none of the strong civs were going at each other. Ended up just leaving the room, when I came back nothing had changed. Boring ass game I'll tell ya, they could of done me a favour and finished me off at least cuz after the two of them attacked me early I was done. That was a good game ;D
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 1, 2005 8:17:21 GMT -5
i too have noticed that with soo many less units ever built, that being w/o resources is downright devistating. seems their should be a senerio or path of tec that allows at least 1 decent unit to be made to counter others with resource at a reasonably early point Longbows and catapults can accomplish quite a bit, you just have to realize when you don't have resources and make a point of getting them. (Or go for gunpowder, which isn't all THAT far.) There are also four possible strategic resources now - iron, copper, horses, ivory; this is a considerably wider range than C3C offered. As for map quality, it's true that some starts are always going to be a tad waffled, but what you're describing is one of the more extreme situations, and that's still vastly better than the C3C variety of "screwed start."
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 1, 2005 9:43:29 GMT -5
Here's hoping the modders will come up with a ZOC included scenario. I've had the game 2 days & just played a couple 1v1 w/Nitro,other than that i'm just familiarizing myself w/it in SP,& the really strange part is no more chokepoints.Sure if yer at war,but now you can't keep the AI's oughta yer land anymore during peacetime.They just move right thru ya as if yer a ghost Frustrating AI Civs can't enter your land unless you made open borders with them, otherwise they have to declare war to do so. CS
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Post by Cobra on Nov 1, 2005 10:04:57 GMT -5
i too have noticed that with soo many less units ever built, that being w/o resources is downright devistating. seems their should be a senerio or path of tec that allows at least 1 decent unit to be made to counter others with resource at a reasonably early point Longbows and catapults can accomplish quite a bit, you just have to realize when you don't have resources and make a point of getting them. (Or go for gunpowder, which isn't all THAT far.) There are also four possible strategic resources now - iron, copper, horses, ivory; this is a considerably wider range than C3C offered. start." Tooo funny. Let me see you get to fued or gunpowder with 0 resources and sub par land next to an opponent with amazing land and three different resources to choose from. Archers and warriors can only do so much vs HA's
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reptile
Worker
in desperate need of a new avatar
Posts: 106
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Post by reptile on Nov 1, 2005 10:57:35 GMT -5
No ressources vs horse archers IS a big problem. If feudalism is too far away, maybe going for construction is a good alternative. Catapults are a strength 5 unit of their own and get this big bonus against horse archers. Catapults will also do well against axemen, because one needs combat II first to promote axemen with a bonus against catapults, whereas catapults only need combat I to get the melee bonus. However, one needs to "steal" a few turns to get catapults in time, i.e. use archers to prevent the enemy from connecting the ressources. If I calculated correctly, the cheapest way to construction costs 1040 beakers - whereas the way to feudalism takes 1310 beakers. I like Mali a lot to eliminate the danger of a chariot rush. Aztecs are good, too, if one knows that he is a good builder. And inca are the best civ to steal some turns.
Edit: I just realized that catapults don´t get a bonus against horse archers....it´s the other way round, lol.
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Post by tommynt on Nov 2, 2005 9:49:44 GMT -5
with the lack of shield grass the bonus tiles got unbalancing important - I can say that for 100% as i m during my 1. game - without shieldgrass there s just no good food - shield - comerce combp - not even a good food shield combo
this lack is 1 of the nonimproving changes i critize most about civ4
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Post by umbra on Nov 12, 2005 18:43:55 GMT -5
hehe what a buch of **** you think you get the best start every time?
i dont see any of you telling of how good land you got.
i guees its ok if you get good land, but if someone else gets it, the game is unfair and crap.
and if you see you dont have mutch at the start, the ohter one will surly have it better?
you may have been god at civ3, but heres there are other factors, even if it seem similar, its not.
Lok at freads streak you think he got 2 cows and iron and copper in his cap very time?
NO. so its has to be somthing he does=? yes ok now close your breed hole and get to learn the game.
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Trayk
Worker
Lets Party at your place!!
Posts: 148
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Post by Trayk on Nov 12, 2005 18:54:59 GMT -5
One thing I HAVE noticed..is screwed starts are MUCH rarer in CIV than in C3.
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Post by Cobra on Nov 12, 2005 23:17:04 GMT -5
hehe what a buch of **** you think you get the best start every time? i dont see any of you telling of how good land you got. i guees its ok if you get good land, but if someone else gets it, the game is unfair and crap. and if you see you dont have mutch at the start, the ohter one will surly have it better? you may have been god at civ3, but heres there are other factors, even if it seem similar, its not. Lok at freads streak you think he got 2 cows and iron and copper in his cap very time? NO. so its has to be somthing he does=? yes ok now close your breed hole and get to learn the game. Umbra... I smoked you arse... The point of this thread is there are some STARTS that you have no chance on.
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 14, 2005 4:34:57 GMT -5
Well I know I've only played a few times but I seem to have a run of bad land. Last game capital was ok. But it lost 50% of it's score because half the squares were in ocean. It also had no water so no farms. Peninsula and to the east was jungle and desert, I had slow growth and it took time to hook my iron up which was 8 tiles away. Plus production sucked too. So I was rolled over by two opponents at the same time. Which was nicely done btw. My point is yes it sucks, but I'll learn to adapt to crap land or I'll die trying. And As with c3c it all balances out in the end, and if it doesn't mod it so it does. Oddly enough I got the first kill in that game, on about turn 14, I think the other civ was trying the risky build a worker instead of a warrior deal and I wondered into his capital. Had the other two civs not of been crammed near me with 1 civ alone I'm sure Id of done great. It aint over till the fat lady sings
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Post by whiplash on Nov 14, 2005 7:13:54 GMT -5
I think the game should be changed so that everybody starts with a worker. As it is, the player must guess which tactic is best on turn one. The worker tactic is good for the long haul; but you never get to the long haul if an enemy warrior shows up. So it's a guessing game.
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Post by tommynt on Nov 14, 2005 9:15:13 GMT -5
worker turn one is never good
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Post by MMV on Nov 14, 2005 9:40:56 GMT -5
If you started with a worker (and it working your land) - how would you protect it from Lions and Tigers, and Bears (oh my)!
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