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Post by nhlpraetorian on Jan 21, 2006 3:52:29 GMT -5
Obviously after 2 threads being vanished there is no point suggesting anything to improve the meaningless rating system, ranks or statistics.
i posted suggestions relating to the way ratings are handled by the world wide chess federation in respect to meaningfully formulating ratings for any one from beginners, to masters, to world champions.
Chess leagues are clearly not in competition with cases ladder...AT ALL
not being able to suggest any thing at all that in some way relates to how other sporting leagues might go about things is obviously going to keep cases system locked into its already clicky set up. and the way this has occurred is seriously showing that admins here are not at all ready to welcome any suggestion that this ladder rating system is totally flawed, and meaningless.
on the one hand i was encouraged to suggest ratings improvements...on the other hand any suggestion of a system that actually is mathematically viable...valid and meaningful gets deleted...under the guise that it is an advertisement for another ladder...rofl...which is absurd...as it in no way competes with civ4 cases ladder. this leaves one with the clear impression that one to suggest anything at all would simply (short of reinventing the wheel) get deleted if it in some loose way had a way of being interpreted as advertising another ladder...
one wonders...if i had of suggested a ladder system for tennis...or cricket...or football or any other major sport that simply already worked out issues of maths and viability it would just have been deleted as a threat to the system that stands in cases...
as it is...there is nothing meaningful about having a good score in this system, or any score at all for that matter. the system measures nothing and accurately so...hell you can get a top 50 rating by simply being in a cton where a top 20 player gets killed to several daggers...you your self had nothing to do with.
as a mathematical value system...this idea is vastly flawed...and no mathematician would endorse this rating system as statistically valid. so what is the point of having it??? better players??? lol...ok...according to what measure??? this system sure does not measure much...no the only thing ladder matches are good for at the moment is simply that the tendency to not quit exists.
no doubt this will be the third thread to disapear...which i feel does show the rather pathetic nature of a clicky group of longer term folks that are protecting a redundant invalid system from critique and potential fixing...what are you folks so scared of??? actually having to do more than play the in crowd??? to get that good rank??? lol...
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 21, 2006 6:49:35 GMT -5
You are just realising that rank is meaningless, and being no1 does not make you the best player; well welcome to ladder play; the ladder system is inadequate no one really takes much notice of it so I wouldn't worry. Look at players who win CCC events or the singles chamionships or team championships, these are the best players everything else is meaningless propoganda.Not a single stat theat means anything, they all can be engineered in one way or another, especially with players able to reset stats.
Everyone realises sooner or later and it's been discussed to death. For now Cases is the best we can do. One day someone'll probably do a ranking system out of the goodness of their hearts, much like the french did,and all this will be settled, 'til then just play to have fun and forget about ranking, no one takes it any more seriously than they should, at least not anyone who's been here for a while.
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Post by Avogadro on Jan 21, 2006 13:39:50 GMT -5
Cases is far from perfect but... 1-It's free 2-Easily run by administration (try running some other ladders with 1500+ members ) 3-It's free 4-It's free Any other questions?
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 21, 2006 14:35:33 GMT -5
you forgot the most important one:- 5) it's free!!
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 21, 2006 15:54:40 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Cases has put to much value in there system in being active vice actual performance, they still do rate you on skill ratings and provide lots of statistics. Yes there are better ranking systems out there, but we do not have the ability to change cases and although it's not perfect it provides the players and admins with a good solid system which is also free. If you can point us to a better free system let us know and we'll take a look at it.
CS
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Post by alice on Jan 21, 2006 21:23:24 GMT -5
chess is a 1v1 game not a 8v8 game :/
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Post by WarningU2 on Jan 22, 2006 0:28:29 GMT -5
The current ladder play involved because it was a) Difficult to get games b) Difficult to play games to completion By creating a league of players that agreed to adhere to finishing games and reporting the results, it tries to organize the chaos. A ranking system was not the motivator. The ranking system itself is not perfect but it adds some structure where there was none. There is no cost involved to individuals. Cases is free - actually because we have so many members and premium members we get some preferred treatment by being placed on the upgraded servers (the plus service). I do not recall what threads have been removed but in reality we as admins cannot change the way the current system works ... it is just is outside our control. We can tweak some misc. settings but not anything that I think you are requesting. I think you would be better served if you can help us by suggesting how we can improve the ladder within its current constraints and not voice down your critique in this supercilious manner. If you don't like the ladder at all or the people that run it ... don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 22, 2006 0:30:31 GMT -5
Ironicaly though playing a 1v1 is often like playing chess with yourself. I'm not sure of the apeal but whatever floats your boat ;D
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 22, 2006 9:16:29 GMT -5
Call this a wacky idea right, but we have like 767 players on this ladder, could you not go to a non free system and say if we can bring you 767 members(growing by the month too) who may well pay for privileged membership which should bring you a nice little revenue could we not then have your services for free provided the premium memberships bought netted more revenue than the actual cost of your ladder? Sounds like a good deal to me. Id be willing to go for premium memberships or whatever other stuff they could offer for a decent ranking system.
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Post by skidbladnir on Jan 22, 2006 17:51:31 GMT -5
odd, cant find back my own detailed suggestion thread on how to change of ladder system and use civfr's one, much more appropriate to civ world. got no answer from admins either, except a "we'll see later, when other things are fixed" by avo
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 22, 2006 18:56:06 GMT -5
odd, cant find back my own detailed suggestion thread on how to change of ladder system and use civfr's one, much more appropriate to civ world. got no answer from admins either, except a "we'll see later, when other things are fixed" by avo The civfr system is a nice system Skid, but it is not free, we don't have our own server to host the software like you do, nor do we possess the programming skills to set it up an maintain it. Cases is not perfect but it has a decent set of tools and services and costs us nothing to use. CS
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Post by nhlpraetorian on Jan 23, 2006 18:16:55 GMT -5
don't get me wrong...i think what is accomplished here is a great idea and has good hearted intention...i got peeved when i did suggest a formula already being used that works mathmatically...and it would still be viable for civ4...reguardless that chess is a 1v1 game. you would not employ the formula solely the same way...rather could have win/loss types registered as well...that could influence scoring...
in any case...i was more disappointed in the threads being simply deleted...rather than a...left...b...a pm explaining what rule i might have broken...if any...c...just a simple reply that shows it is not viable, doable...or just not looked into....or what ever.
if i came across as rude in my third thread running...then perhaps that is not held in context to what i wrote in the last 2. where i was being far less critical...and simply posting a suggestion...if this is not acceptable..then "do not ask for suggestions".
yes that you guys do this at all for free is great...and i do not really have a problem with that at all...or the work that is done.
yes the organizing of the chaos is far better than not...yes there are things going for this ladder. no i don't have a problem with any one in particular...and if you want to show me the door...then all fine and well...it hardly is going to bother me too much.
btw...the ccc does seem to have value and merit in its system...and that is good to see.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 24, 2006 1:23:53 GMT -5
Well I have no idea who deleted the other threads except that it wasn't myself, our only policy on C4P with respect to discussions of ladder idea's is that we don't allow people to advertise competing ladder on our forums, anything else is pretty much fair game.
CS
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 24, 2006 1:44:56 GMT -5
Believe me Praetorian if you put a pole up saying something like is Cases a good ladder league for CIV/C3c? You'd get a resounding no? Actually that's not that bad of an Idea I think the problem is money, pretty much I refer you point 4 of Avogadros post 4)it's free
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Post by Canucksoldier on Jan 24, 2006 19:35:51 GMT -5
Believe me we've bent the standard cases/myleague system with our rules just about as much as we can to suit a muliple player TBS game, we run C3P/C4P much differently than any other myleague.
CS
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 24, 2006 22:15:18 GMT -5
Well I'm not bad mouthing the admins just the cases system, let me make that absolutely clear.
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Post by Avogadro on Jan 28, 2006 15:36:48 GMT -5
I would ask all captains to discuss to their clan members the possibility of becoming more involved by sighing up as a tournament director. It woudl help enrich the league to have more TD's. Also some of you may complain that yrou "voice" is not being heard when it come to bringing changes in rules, events and procedure, well my reply to this is the more you are involved with the league the more likely you are to being heard. The TD's and Admins often correspond, we know each other, we respect each other, we listen to each others opinions. Mature TD's can contribute a lot to the healthy functionning of our league. So I urge you folks to get involved as it will better the experience for all of us. Sincerely GCAvogadro ps-go to www.myleague.comLeft side tourney directors link, click it and on next screen click TD application at the top.
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Post by tommynt on Jan 28, 2006 17:58:24 GMT -5
Cases is much better as it is made in this thread big pluses imo: quite fast site no popups very few commercials easy to access (u need only 1 click to report loss) allways same design 1 click to fast forums easy to handle tourneys (as far as i can see) it just does what is should do clear design
about rankings - there are lot of different statistics which make u able to get a picture from player - apart from the resetting stats the skill rating works a bit like the elo in chess ranks and makes u therefore able to "rate skillz"
and the meaning of ranks .. oh well if u wana be number 1 u ave to beat some top players then number 4 then number 2 and then number 1 or so not a easy way to go when looking into the top 10 atm where only somehwat strong players are. and believe me I try to give n2 a hard time when playing me ...
and .. the ccc winners are allways on main page ... ccc was allways last instance to prove skliiz .. so check out event winners
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Post by nhlpraetorian on Jan 29, 2006 4:26:59 GMT -5
yeah tommy i agree mostly...
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 29, 2006 8:19:49 GMT -5
The skill rating is flawed as well, beating 100 players with lesser skill will get you less than beating 30 good players, that doesn't make much sense to me in a game where you could of sat there all game and built and had no part in a "good" players demise. If you play with top players regularly on say teamers your skill may well get artificially boosted and bear no reflection on your actual skill. Resetting stats just makes the whole league stats absolutely meaningless, taking away any dubious meaning they may originally of had anyway. Cases is good for what it costs. But it's entirely inadequate for a civ style game. The French leagues ratings system is a quantum leap above what we have with cases, it's just a shame we haven't got someone to write a nice little ranking system type thing into this forum like they have
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