Post by quickacorn on Jan 15, 2008 12:27:17 GMT -5
Since I keep hearing about how all I do is criticize and offer no ideas, and certain other members get the same nuts from the other CanuckSoldier fanboys, I'm going to make a nice long post on why Civ4 is a stagnant community and is unable to compete with other online communities due to a number of factors that will follow. I already said all these things years ago and they were all readily dismissed by know it all darkstorm (you call him canuck soldier, a name he took on after he went to Civ3 and none of the Civ2 players followed, more on that later). Take off the hate EyesOfNight hats for a moment and disregard the normal way I behave.
1. Clans
The clan system in this game is extremely unorganized and down right useless in most areas. The whole point of a clan is so that you can play as a clan, yet random shuffle is almost mandatory in ladder games? What is this? I have never seen a game before where other players come in and demand that teams be shuffled, especially when it is a clan that is playing. It wasn’t that way in Civ2, and it sure wasn’t that way in any other game I have played, all of which had much healthier online communities.
In addition, in a community that is as small as Civ4, you need to make wearing clan tags mandatory. This is another aspect I have never seen before where you can’t tell who is actually in a clan and you have to go to a forum list to find out. I talked about this years ago, but like everything else nothing was ever done.
On the same issue of having a small community, I have heard people say you need to limit the total number of players in the clan. This is actually wrong, and there is a much better way of doing it:
• The reason there seems to be a shortage of players is because there has been severe mismanagement in the promotion of the league and in the promotion of clans and their benefits. I see no marketing being done on the part of the ladder to bring new players in with special features. CCC is a horribly run system, and all you have to do is look at other online communities to see better ways (see section 2).
• If you increase the competitive nature of clans, people are going to start booting people from their clans for not making the cut. This is how it works in all other games (I will explain in section 3 why this isn’t the case in Civ4). People will of course still keep low level players in their clans if they like them.
• Through increasing inter-clan competition and the ability of clans to function as a clan in normal ladder games, there will be more incentive to actually join a clan. In addition, through proper marketing, it will be possible to bring lower level players into the league. Clans are always a draw for lower level players, my experience in other games has proved this time and again. The real issue again is that it’s not being marketed properly.
2. The Problem with CCC
You know there is something wroth with CCC when even LongHorn will admit it is a terribly flawed system. I already told you how to fix this years ago, but I’ll do it again. Let me start off with some of the issues surrounding CCC:
• The settings are often times weird and don’t appeal to higher level players.
• The entire tournament takes place on one weekend making it especially difficult for all players in a clan to be online.
• There is a large time span in between each CCC.
• It requires a tournament director to be present which means more manpower is needed than what is really required for an even like this.
I will direct you to the World Clan League system employed in games like Age of Empires and many others. It’s very simple, each week 1 clan plays against another clan in a series of games decided in the tournament settings. You divide a number of clans up into groups and these groups basically play a round robin. Each game won counts as 1 point and the clan with the highest number of points advances to the playoffs. The playoffs are formed from the top clan in each group and they then play in tournament format with settings decided by the admins. The advantages of such a system are pretty obvious:
• This system results in more team games played as a clan.
• The full week of scheduling to play gives clans a better chance to have their members on.
• It eliminates the need for a tournament director beyond moderating on the forums and helping with scheduling issues.
• It gives clans a chance to improve over time as they play and will increase clan play in normal games as the tournament lasts over a period of months.
• It takes the same amount of time as the period in-between CCCs, but it is a continues flow of games.
This system is used in many games for cash prizes number in the thousands, I’m sure it’s good enough for Civilization 4.
3. You elitist jerk!
Ok, seriously, I have never heard the word elitist used in an online computer game before. The fact that people actually use this word just underscores the serious issues concerning competition and the way Canucksoldier and those in charge of the community approach it. Healthy competitive communities have a very high competition level with the upper level players controlling the community. This isn’t the case in Civ4 and it’s pretty clear why.
CanuckSoldier pretty much runs this community like a daycare. As one person put it a while back, “put on your helmets and kneepads kids because today everyone is a winner!” Sorry, but successful online communities don’t work this way. This isn’t communist China, nor is it some socialist paradise where the supposed peasantry is oppressed by the evil elite and need to be brought out of bondage by the ruling party. It’s a computer game, and there are winners and there are losers, deal with it. This idea that everyone is equal and we should all hold hands and be great friends is detrimental to the competitive nature of online communities and computer games, and it shows in the absolutely stifling atmosphere that is present in Civ4.
I have seen in entire threads about how someone got booted from a game for not being good enough and then the great CanuckSoldier jumps in and lectures these players about the spirit of the ladder. In no other game would something like this be possible, in no other game would someone be stupid enough to run a community like this, and in no other game would it even be remotely possible for one guy to control the entire community and the direction of the game.
Online communities need competition, and they need high level players that stand out for others to look at and inspire the desire to play more and improve. It’s a fundamental characteristic that this ladder severely lacks (part of it was the cases rung system that has been corrected), and it’s part of the reason why you are missing out on a large number of lower level players who aren’t bothering to join the ladder. In other games, upper level players are seen as heroes and thousands of people will download a recorded game to watch it and try to learn. In this game, anyone who stands out is considered elitist scum and is derided by administrators for not being the nice guy that plays with everyone and fits into CanuckSoldier’s little dream that he sees for his idealized online world.
4. Ladder Issues
I won’t go into this because in the screenshots the new ladder seems to have fixed everything. Good job.
5. Current Administrators
It’s pretty obvious at this point that the current administrators have failed this community. I see no evidence to back up the claims that they are keeping this game alive and everyone else is just criticizing and not helping. The fact is this:
• You have a group of completely inexperienced players who are low level and anti-competition who are in charge of the community.
• Even worse some of these players speak with Firaxis directly about the direction of the game. This is absolutely unheard of and I am not exactly sure how this was allowed to happen. In no other game would this be possible, and it certainly wasn’t possible in Civilization 2 (more on this in section 6).
• The administrators openly deride players they perceive as not acting in the spirit of the ladder. This is terrifyingly similar to a communist government, especially when you factor in their rabid goal of destroying competition and promoting low level players, and I have to wonder if CanuckSoldier is so intent on keeping his position because this is an opportunity for him to build his idealized little society.
• Over and over again I have heard the problems with CCC, and even administrators saying it is a flawed system, and yet nothing is done. In the corporate world if you admit there is a problem and fail to fix it, the correct thing to do is resign. This of course will never happen because you have people in charge who cling to power as their only source of importance in their otherwise meaningless lives.
• The admins don’t approach the league and the community like a business. It’s why there is no campaign to bring in new players, no innovation, and certainly no improvement. What you need are admins who are willing to enact change on a regular basis and who promote the competitive nature found in every single other game in existence online.
6. DarkStorm/CanuckSoldier
I have actually known him since 1999 in civilization 2. He was as much a low level player then as he is now, even though he has repeatedly denied this. Back then we had a league called Civleague that used its own equation based on expected outcomes. It completely dominated the community for a number of different reasons. There were numerous attempts to try and move the community to cases ladder during the course of Civilization 2. These all failed for the very fact that the top players controlled the community and they supported Civleague. I’m not exactly sure how Canuck rose to the position of power he is in now. In Civ2, there wouldn’t have been a chance in hell of him becoming a community leader so I can only surmise that his opportunity came when PTW was released and all the Civ2 players decided not to move to an otherwise broken game. Whatever the reasons, it has been an absolute disaster. He doesn’t display the qualities needed in a leader, and he severely lacks the knowledge of the game and the knowledge of how competitive online communities work. He has been very good at dividing and conquering the community through the promotion of low level players and the constant demeaning of upper level players. Slogans like “One community one league” have paralyzed others to the point that they couldn’t imagine making a competing ladder. The fact is that Cancuksoldier approaches his position not as a hobby, but as a true position of power that he clings to like others on the administrative team. The reason there is never any change is because change would weaken his position. As long as he is the one controlling the community, the community will continue to suffer.
In conclusion, it is not that people just criticize, it is that CanuckSoldier has been very good in degrading anyone with an opposing viewpoint. If you are a high level player you are an elitist. If you don’t agree with him then all you do is criticize and never put forth any ideas. If you put forth new ideas they never get implemented and they are either brushed off as not feasible or they are given the classic “we’ll take this into consideration.” Just like societies in the real world need periodic changes of leadership, so do online communities. I make my living off of my understanding of how competition works and how people interact online through a competitive environment. I approach this as a hobby, not as something I need in order to validate the importance of my existence. For those of you who think there is a better way to run things, ask yourself why over all these years there has been no change or innovation. Think about it, and the answer should be clear.
1. Clans
The clan system in this game is extremely unorganized and down right useless in most areas. The whole point of a clan is so that you can play as a clan, yet random shuffle is almost mandatory in ladder games? What is this? I have never seen a game before where other players come in and demand that teams be shuffled, especially when it is a clan that is playing. It wasn’t that way in Civ2, and it sure wasn’t that way in any other game I have played, all of which had much healthier online communities.
In addition, in a community that is as small as Civ4, you need to make wearing clan tags mandatory. This is another aspect I have never seen before where you can’t tell who is actually in a clan and you have to go to a forum list to find out. I talked about this years ago, but like everything else nothing was ever done.
On the same issue of having a small community, I have heard people say you need to limit the total number of players in the clan. This is actually wrong, and there is a much better way of doing it:
• The reason there seems to be a shortage of players is because there has been severe mismanagement in the promotion of the league and in the promotion of clans and their benefits. I see no marketing being done on the part of the ladder to bring new players in with special features. CCC is a horribly run system, and all you have to do is look at other online communities to see better ways (see section 2).
• If you increase the competitive nature of clans, people are going to start booting people from their clans for not making the cut. This is how it works in all other games (I will explain in section 3 why this isn’t the case in Civ4). People will of course still keep low level players in their clans if they like them.
• Through increasing inter-clan competition and the ability of clans to function as a clan in normal ladder games, there will be more incentive to actually join a clan. In addition, through proper marketing, it will be possible to bring lower level players into the league. Clans are always a draw for lower level players, my experience in other games has proved this time and again. The real issue again is that it’s not being marketed properly.
2. The Problem with CCC
You know there is something wroth with CCC when even LongHorn will admit it is a terribly flawed system. I already told you how to fix this years ago, but I’ll do it again. Let me start off with some of the issues surrounding CCC:
• The settings are often times weird and don’t appeal to higher level players.
• The entire tournament takes place on one weekend making it especially difficult for all players in a clan to be online.
• There is a large time span in between each CCC.
• It requires a tournament director to be present which means more manpower is needed than what is really required for an even like this.
I will direct you to the World Clan League system employed in games like Age of Empires and many others. It’s very simple, each week 1 clan plays against another clan in a series of games decided in the tournament settings. You divide a number of clans up into groups and these groups basically play a round robin. Each game won counts as 1 point and the clan with the highest number of points advances to the playoffs. The playoffs are formed from the top clan in each group and they then play in tournament format with settings decided by the admins. The advantages of such a system are pretty obvious:
• This system results in more team games played as a clan.
• The full week of scheduling to play gives clans a better chance to have their members on.
• It eliminates the need for a tournament director beyond moderating on the forums and helping with scheduling issues.
• It gives clans a chance to improve over time as they play and will increase clan play in normal games as the tournament lasts over a period of months.
• It takes the same amount of time as the period in-between CCCs, but it is a continues flow of games.
This system is used in many games for cash prizes number in the thousands, I’m sure it’s good enough for Civilization 4.
3. You elitist jerk!
Ok, seriously, I have never heard the word elitist used in an online computer game before. The fact that people actually use this word just underscores the serious issues concerning competition and the way Canucksoldier and those in charge of the community approach it. Healthy competitive communities have a very high competition level with the upper level players controlling the community. This isn’t the case in Civ4 and it’s pretty clear why.
CanuckSoldier pretty much runs this community like a daycare. As one person put it a while back, “put on your helmets and kneepads kids because today everyone is a winner!” Sorry, but successful online communities don’t work this way. This isn’t communist China, nor is it some socialist paradise where the supposed peasantry is oppressed by the evil elite and need to be brought out of bondage by the ruling party. It’s a computer game, and there are winners and there are losers, deal with it. This idea that everyone is equal and we should all hold hands and be great friends is detrimental to the competitive nature of online communities and computer games, and it shows in the absolutely stifling atmosphere that is present in Civ4.
I have seen in entire threads about how someone got booted from a game for not being good enough and then the great CanuckSoldier jumps in and lectures these players about the spirit of the ladder. In no other game would something like this be possible, in no other game would someone be stupid enough to run a community like this, and in no other game would it even be remotely possible for one guy to control the entire community and the direction of the game.
Online communities need competition, and they need high level players that stand out for others to look at and inspire the desire to play more and improve. It’s a fundamental characteristic that this ladder severely lacks (part of it was the cases rung system that has been corrected), and it’s part of the reason why you are missing out on a large number of lower level players who aren’t bothering to join the ladder. In other games, upper level players are seen as heroes and thousands of people will download a recorded game to watch it and try to learn. In this game, anyone who stands out is considered elitist scum and is derided by administrators for not being the nice guy that plays with everyone and fits into CanuckSoldier’s little dream that he sees for his idealized online world.
4. Ladder Issues
I won’t go into this because in the screenshots the new ladder seems to have fixed everything. Good job.
5. Current Administrators
It’s pretty obvious at this point that the current administrators have failed this community. I see no evidence to back up the claims that they are keeping this game alive and everyone else is just criticizing and not helping. The fact is this:
• You have a group of completely inexperienced players who are low level and anti-competition who are in charge of the community.
• Even worse some of these players speak with Firaxis directly about the direction of the game. This is absolutely unheard of and I am not exactly sure how this was allowed to happen. In no other game would this be possible, and it certainly wasn’t possible in Civilization 2 (more on this in section 6).
• The administrators openly deride players they perceive as not acting in the spirit of the ladder. This is terrifyingly similar to a communist government, especially when you factor in their rabid goal of destroying competition and promoting low level players, and I have to wonder if CanuckSoldier is so intent on keeping his position because this is an opportunity for him to build his idealized little society.
• Over and over again I have heard the problems with CCC, and even administrators saying it is a flawed system, and yet nothing is done. In the corporate world if you admit there is a problem and fail to fix it, the correct thing to do is resign. This of course will never happen because you have people in charge who cling to power as their only source of importance in their otherwise meaningless lives.
• The admins don’t approach the league and the community like a business. It’s why there is no campaign to bring in new players, no innovation, and certainly no improvement. What you need are admins who are willing to enact change on a regular basis and who promote the competitive nature found in every single other game in existence online.
6. DarkStorm/CanuckSoldier
I have actually known him since 1999 in civilization 2. He was as much a low level player then as he is now, even though he has repeatedly denied this. Back then we had a league called Civleague that used its own equation based on expected outcomes. It completely dominated the community for a number of different reasons. There were numerous attempts to try and move the community to cases ladder during the course of Civilization 2. These all failed for the very fact that the top players controlled the community and they supported Civleague. I’m not exactly sure how Canuck rose to the position of power he is in now. In Civ2, there wouldn’t have been a chance in hell of him becoming a community leader so I can only surmise that his opportunity came when PTW was released and all the Civ2 players decided not to move to an otherwise broken game. Whatever the reasons, it has been an absolute disaster. He doesn’t display the qualities needed in a leader, and he severely lacks the knowledge of the game and the knowledge of how competitive online communities work. He has been very good at dividing and conquering the community through the promotion of low level players and the constant demeaning of upper level players. Slogans like “One community one league” have paralyzed others to the point that they couldn’t imagine making a competing ladder. The fact is that Cancuksoldier approaches his position not as a hobby, but as a true position of power that he clings to like others on the administrative team. The reason there is never any change is because change would weaken his position. As long as he is the one controlling the community, the community will continue to suffer.
In conclusion, it is not that people just criticize, it is that CanuckSoldier has been very good in degrading anyone with an opposing viewpoint. If you are a high level player you are an elitist. If you don’t agree with him then all you do is criticize and never put forth any ideas. If you put forth new ideas they never get implemented and they are either brushed off as not feasible or they are given the classic “we’ll take this into consideration.” Just like societies in the real world need periodic changes of leadership, so do online communities. I make my living off of my understanding of how competition works and how people interact online through a competitive environment. I approach this as a hobby, not as something I need in order to validate the importance of my existence. For those of you who think there is a better way to run things, ask yourself why over all these years there has been no change or innovation. Think about it, and the answer should be clear.