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Post by deyreepher on Nov 12, 2007 16:56:40 GMT -5
Locking the Francis Thread does nothing. This is an open forum where we are trying to prevent a similar situation arising in the future. By shutting down the debate, you will prevent others from voicing their opinions (whether they be relevant or not). By cutting off this other avenue of opinion, your group will more inclined to begin group thinking, which I believe is already well entrenched in the tight knit ladder admin circle. When you have irrelevant posts on the ladder forum, you're better off moderating them. The more irrelevant the post, the quicker you should delete a post. This is not the same as deleting a dissenting opinion, locking out further debate, or trying to avoid further criticism. Your team has already made one mistake with the francis ruling by D/Qing him, don't make more by trying to prevent us from helping you to make the ladder run more smoothly in the future. If you think that we don't vision or can't help out, you're F'ing wrong. There would be no new ladder system if I hadn't of prodded CS for a year. IIf we can transform the ladder to a more ranking system, we can standardize the CCC to ensure things go smoothly.
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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 12, 2007 17:41:09 GMT -5
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Post by Death to ALL on Nov 12, 2007 18:50:16 GMT -5
Dey,
I locked the thread due to the pending flame war of members saying Rokkit and Francis are both and the same and that clan APB was nothing more then a fake. That was where that thread was going.
As to the decision made of francis, as I have already said there is a standard procedure for disputing a ruling. Now if you want to discuss that process then by all means do so.
Oh and fyi, the new ladder system has nothing to do with any prodding you may have done. It is happening because Slaughter came to use with some of the work already done and offered his services to finish it.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 12, 2007 22:07:07 GMT -5
Dey, I totally agree with what DTA has stated. The ruling may not have been the best, but discussing it in hindsight has limited value, the fact is that the person that was effected by the decision didn't even use the system in place already. So before we start tearing apart a system tha has worked many times in the past, perhaps we should ask why people don't simply ask for an Admin/TD review panel?
And as DTA has stated your push for a new ladder system and our decision to move ahead with one was completely co-incidental, the admin team would be planning on using Myleague for some time if Slaughter had not offered us his services. So contrary to your analysis, the ladder admins are quit able and willing to embrace change as long as that change is what is best for the ladder. And we are quit willing to take the input and assistance of any player that wants to help.....remember Slaughter is not an Admin, just a dedicated player that wants to give back something to the ladder that he enjoyed as a player.
CS
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Post by deyreepher on Nov 13, 2007 0:27:39 GMT -5
Dey, I locked the thread due to the pending flame war of members saying Rokkit and Francis are both and the same and that clan APB was nothing more then a fake. That was where that thread was going. As to the decision made of francis, as I have already said there is a standard procedure for disputing a ruling. Now if you want to discuss that process then by all means do so. Oh and fyi, the new ladder system has nothing to do with any prodding you may have done. It is happening because Slaughter came to use with some of the work already done and offered his services to finish it. You have forum moderators, use them. I will agree that forums are a tricky place, but to advance the ladder to bigger and better things there is no other better forum (pardon the pun). It is not that difficult to moderate forums, I have done it before and know what kind of flak the moderators will receive. However, if properly done the forum can be a great place for people to express their ideas and to be able to contribute in some sort of fashion. As I recall, it was the admins that brought up the question as to whether francis and rokkit are the same player. I called you guys out on trying to pull a red herring. The focus was on the decision, not the player, though I will agree if the person in questiwas smurfing it did nothing for the spirit of the CCC. From what I read about the grievance, francis was TRYING to dispute the ruling. However, the Head TD was not acknowledging the legitimate points that francis had. Granted, I only really heard francis's side. Some of the other admins/TDs tried to interject, but they did not lay out, step by step, what actions they had taken in the course of ruling by consensus. Supposedly, the admins/TDs conferred with each other, but now I am hearing that this was otherwise. So all we want is the straight and skinny. Think of this as something like the 9/11 Commission. We want to know what processes went into this ruling, because it seems a bit dicey. So, if you reply to any part of my response to your post, do it on this one section. That's great, it's good to know that Slaughter stepped up. I know if I had the ability, I would have. Unfortunately, I'm not a programmer of any type. Also, Ellestar had mentioned interest in helping out. Not that I am to claim that this new ladder system is all my doing, but pointing out that you have other resources to draw upon, yes I will take credit for that. The more open a development process is, the more you tend to have people with ability who will be willing to help out. Granted, you will have detractors and naysayers, but that is all part of the growing process. Nothing worth creating comes easy.
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Post by deyreepher on Nov 13, 2007 0:55:55 GMT -5
Dey, I totally agree with what DTA has stated. The ruling may not have been the best, but discussing it in hindsight has limited value, the fact is that the person that was effected by the decision didn't even use the system in place already. So before we start tearing apart a system tha has worked many times in the past, perhaps we should ask why people don't simply ask for an Admin/TD review panel? And as DTA has stated your push for a new ladder system and our decision to move ahead with one was completely co-incidental, the admin team would be planning on using Myleague for some time if Slaughter had not offered us his services. So contrary to your analysis, the ladder admins are quit able and willing to embrace change as long as that change is what is best for the ladder. And we are quit willing to take the input and assistance of any player that wants to help.....remember Slaughter is not an Admin, just a dedicated player that wants to give back something to the ladder that he enjoyed as a player. CS You do not see any value in reviewing the decision, that is your opinion and DTA's. However, there were a few dissenting opinions on the ruling in the Francis Thread. It may be easy to just brush the issue under the carpet, but why is it so difficult to objectively look at what happened and see what good can come from the situation? There was an apparent breakdown in the ruling process. First off, you cannot tell us what steps were taken, because you have no logs of what happened or have not made them available to us to support the claims of the admin/TD team. Second, the ruling did not come from a gameplay factor in that the situation of both players involved were not assessed. This is crucial as the screenshot that was provided clearly showed that a reload of 3 turns would have dramatically affected the outcome of the 3 turns about to be retread. If an attack had not been in progress, a 3 turn reload probably would not have been an issue, but the fact remains that it was 1 City Elimination and the defender had only 5 units to defend with compared to 15 of the attacker. That 3:1 ratio almost guarantees victory for the attacker given the situation. Third, though Levi is an invaluable asset to the ladder in that he does provide alot of his personal time to host tournaments. He does not keep his emotions in check. Though he was not at his rudest (from what I observed) he did seem quite cold towards francis. If you are going to claim to be providing a service, do it well or why do it at all? If this francis guy was not a smurf, then a new player was chased away. If he was a smurf, you gave him exactly what he wanted. The point with Slaughter is well noted, but as I have pointed out there are other players who would have potentially helped out if they had known that such a change had any remote possibility of occurring. Again, I will point to the example of Ellestar stepping up. I do not know why you would refuse his assistance if he has the skills to help out with this project. My point with the whole new ladder system is that you have alot of resources out there available. We could use some new players, as it is we will have to tap into the existing game base which would be the SP community. As much as I loathe them, they are probably the only demographic that has Civ IV and the two expansions. There are quite a few talented mod teams out there as evidenced by the SP Community Modders that were able to create mods for the retail release of BTS. There are people who love challenges, love Civ, and can program. Why not harness that ability and creativity? Instead, we had you stonewalling us for nearly a year until Slaughter stepped up. I don't get it. It just seems like an arbitrary decision and unless you lay out all your reasons for saying yes to Slaughter's project, I don't think I can follow your reasoning. And to what I can contribute. If you need a forum moderator, I can do that for you. Instead of locking down the francis thread, it would have been more prudent to put up a warning to stay on topic. Also, after reviewing that thread, I was wrong on the admins bringing up the possibility that francis was a duplicate account, it was MMV. Also, let's have a TD cheat sheet. It seems that the TDs have too much leeway in determining the outcomes of matches. The D/Q of a player should require more than just 1 TD to determine. Forcing a reload is one thing, but to just D/Q a player who was clearly in the lead just does not seem right. I will help you out with the development of this as it is something I can contribute to. I have not played in a CCC for over half a year so there is not much of a conflict of interest and the team that I did play for is no longer in existence. However, I do have tournament experience and have at least some knowledge as to what factors to look for in determining the possibility of a win for one team or another. Also in TDing, I have made calls that were not looked favorably upon, but did follow the rules set by the ladder (which do not seem to be adhered to) and it was done in a consensus setting.
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Post by Ellestar on Nov 13, 2007 8:21:38 GMT -5
Dey, I locked the thread due to the pending flame war of members saying Rokkit and Francis are both and the same and that clan APB was nothing more then a fake. That was where that thread was going. That's not the reason to close the thread. You just need to permaban by IP a known and widely accepted as such veteran trolls like MMV who don't even play in ladder, and problem solved. I don't understand why you waste your time locking threads instead of using solutions that are actually effective.
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Post by Lestat on Nov 13, 2007 8:46:09 GMT -5
I think that MVV have some extra priviledges... If some 1 else post like him, he will find himself in read-only forum mod.
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Post by deyreepher on Nov 13, 2007 11:56:30 GMT -5
Dey, I locked the thread due to the pending flame war of members saying Rokkit and Francis are both and the same and that clan APB was nothing more then a fake. That was where that thread was going. That's not the reason to close the thread. You just need to permaban by IP a known and widely accepted as such veteran trolls like MMV who don't even play in ladder, and problem solved. I don't understand why you waste your time locking threads instead of using solutions that are actually effective. Спасибо. Thank you for clarifying that important point. I have a feeling I may have buried that in one of my posts.
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ot4e
Settler
Posts: 98
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Post by ot4e on Nov 13, 2007 15:43:01 GMT -5
If you want my comment, I was there in lobby waiting for an opponent one of Cachola or Fransis. That wasnt the great pleasure having your game done and looking at the scene. I dont care. Cachola is very good and expirienced player and should obviously know that leaving game without circumstances is a good reason for d/q. I have no offence to him, but I am sure he was wrong. I meant nothing that he could defend himself and play it over. He left, so he approved his lose. I know he had missclicked and we all know that he is hot-blooded guy. He should have stayed this and play it on anyway. Levi was going to make right desigion, he was telling them to reload game. But fransis didnt say it clearly that he had no save to load. He told Levi to shut up when he was discribing them what to do. I understand Levi was insulted, because he also was completely bored by this pair, and was trying to solve unsolveable problem. I dont really know how to explain, but it is dumb to say jugde to shut up. You should never do it. Dont argue with judge and you wont be judged. From this point Levi made right desigion, eventhough Cachola could be the reason of those lags. Next match his connection completely crashed and he also got d/q. I think Levi could make a favor to Fransis, who is new to our system. Imho. We cant insist on it or demand it. Fransis was impatient and lost dimplomatic victory he could achieve.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 13, 2007 16:27:51 GMT -5
Dey, I totally agree with what DTA has stated. The ruling may not have been the best, but discussing it in hindsight has limited value, the fact is that the person that was effected by the decision didn't even use the system in place already. So before we start tearing apart a system tha has worked many times in the past, perhaps we should ask why people don't simply ask for an Admin/TD review panel? And as DTA has stated your push for a new ladder system and our decision to move ahead with one was completely co-incidental, the admin team would be planning on using Myleague for some time if Slaughter had not offered us his services. So contrary to your analysis, the ladder admins are quit able and willing to embrace change as long as that change is what is best for the ladder. And we are quit willing to take the input and assistance of any player that wants to help.....remember Slaughter is not an Admin, just a dedicated player that wants to give back something to the ladder that he enjoyed as a player. CS You do not see any value in reviewing the decision, that is your opinion and DTA's. However, there were a few dissenting opinions on the ruling in the Francis Thread. It may be easy to just brush the issue under the carpet, but why is it so difficult to objectively look at what happened and see what good can come from the situation? There was an apparent breakdown in the ruling process. First off, you cannot tell us what steps were taken, because you have no logs of what happened or have not made them available to us to support the claims of the admin/TD team. Second, the ruling did not come from a gameplay factor in that the situation of both players involved were not assessed. This is crucial as the screenshot that was provided clearly showed that a reload of 3 turns would have dramatically affected the outcome of the 3 turns about to be retread. If an attack had not been in progress, a 3 turn reload probably would not have been an issue, but the fact remains that it was 1 City Elimination and the defender had only 5 units to defend with compared to 15 of the attacker. That 3:1 ratio almost guarantees victory for the attacker given the situation. Third, though Levi is an invaluable asset to the ladder in that he does provide alot of his personal time to host tournaments. He does not keep his emotions in check. Though he was not at his rudest (from what I observed) he did seem quite cold towards francis. If you are going to claim to be providing a service, do it well or why do it at all? If this francis guy was not a smurf, then a new player was chased away. If he was a smurf, you gave him exactly what he wanted. The point with Slaughter is well noted, but as I have pointed out there are other players who would have potentially helped out if they had known that such a change had any remote possibility of occurring. Again, I will point to the example of Ellestar stepping up. I do not know why you would refuse his assistance if he has the skills to help out with this project. My point with the whole new ladder system is that you have alot of resources out there available. We could use some new players, as it is we will have to tap into the existing game base which would be the SP community. As much as I loathe them, they are probably the only demographic that has Civ IV and the two expansions. There are quite a few talented mod teams out there as evidenced by the SP Community Modders that were able to create mods for the retail release of BTS. There are people who love challenges, love Civ, and can program. Why not harness that ability and creativity? Instead, we had you stonewalling us for nearly a year until Slaughter stepped up. I don't get it. It just seems like an arbitrary decision and unless you lay out all your reasons for saying yes to Slaughter's project, I don't think I can follow your reasoning. And to what I can contribute. If you need a forum moderator, I can do that for you. Instead of locking down the francis thread, it would have been more prudent to put up a warning to stay on topic. Also, after reviewing that thread, I was wrong on the admins bringing up the possibility that francis was a duplicate account, it was MMV. Also, let's have a TD cheat sheet. It seems that the TDs have too much leeway in determining the outcomes of matches. The D/Q of a player should require more than just 1 TD to determine. Forcing a reload is one thing, but to just D/Q a player who was clearly in the lead just does not seem right. I will help you out with the development of this as it is something I can contribute to. I have not played in a CCC for over half a year so there is not much of a conflict of interest and the team that I did play for is no longer in existence. However, I do have tournament experience and have at least some knowledge as to what factors to look for in determining the possibility of a win for one team or another. Also in TDing, I have made calls that were not looked favorably upon, but did follow the rules set by the ladder (which do not seem to be adhered to) and it was done in a consensus setting. As to the situation with Levi and the DQ, I can't really speak in any more detail about that issue as I was not present when it happened. Is there value in examining the system we have, yes to a point. In my opinion we have to educate people better about what to do in these situations. From what I understand there was no review asked for and I do not know if that individual knew that they could ask for a review. If that is the case then we, as the admin team, have to better educate the members of the clans about the procedure in conflicts in the CCC. As to your points on the new ladder. If you are correct in your statement that people feel that they couldn't come forward with new idea, I have no idea why. I have repeatedly stated in these forums that I would consider a new league software if we had a programmer and a new domain host. In that past we have not had these two and therefore we have stayed with Myleague as the best free alternative. Personally, I've known Ellstar as a player for some time now, and at no time did I become aware that he was a web database programmer, if that is infact his area of expertise. I may know alot about alot of players, but I can't know everything. If there are players on the ladder that have real life skills that can help us and they want to help, I would expect them to come forward and identify themselves and what they can do for this community. CS
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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 13, 2007 18:16:35 GMT -5
I don't really see a reason for this to be public discussion. I wish admins and TD's disqualified r.etard.s more often.
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Post by Lestat on Nov 13, 2007 18:18:21 GMT -5
hmmm strong words wumy we will see wot will be hapen with you clan budy
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Post by Levi on Nov 13, 2007 21:16:30 GMT -5
Mrs. Levi gives DeyReepher eight out of ten points for using the term redux correctly in the title of this thread.
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Post by nemesis666 on Nov 16, 2007 12:56:15 GMT -5
If this is all what u have to say to in this case better say nothing.
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