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Post by lporiginalg on Nov 11, 2007 18:41:24 GMT -5
I was in the lobby when this all went down and I agree with francis that it was bad a ruling, I know the TD's have good intentions but maybe if they played the game a bit more they would know what an unfair advantage it is to force a reload from a 3 turn old save, this really should never be an option. From what I understood the problem was francis couldn't host and cachola didn't have the current save, a lot better solution would've been for francis to email or somehow transfer the save to cachola so he could host it, then they could play the 1 turn and cachola would die, gg. I just think that when situations like this come up the TD's need to take as much time as neccessary to come up with a completely fair solution, rather then rushing out these half baked ideas like "ok just host the 3 turn old save, what you don't like that ruling? ok your disqualified, gg" francis you got totally screwed there. I felt the same way about the time that ray and some french clan got space race on same turn and the french guys won. The admins decided in about 15 mins, based on some info that mookie got from his "programmer friend at fireaxis" that the host always wins in a victory condition tie. The admins ruled they should replay the game but the french guys were tired and knew they were a longshot in the first place so conceded. Now I know it's ancient history but even if mookie wasn't just making that nuts up then it woulda made a lot more sense to just toss a coin rather than tell them to replay the game from start. Anyway just trying to show how if you take some time to think nuts through you can actually come up with a solution that is fair to both parties.
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Post by deyreepher on Nov 12, 2007 2:44:52 GMT -5
I jumped online right after francis had made his case for the billionth time. I checked out his forum posting, screenshot, and heard his side of the story.
I did hear some of Levi's, but I did not get his story in its entirety as some of the other TDs/admins were chiming in saying that there was a consensus on the ruling between francis/Cachola.
In hindsight, the admins/TDs made a bad decision. I do not think there was any argument in that, even if none of them would publicly state that a mistake had been made.
Here are the mistakes that I think were made by the organizers of the event in this ruling:
1. Emotions are not seperated from judgement calls. As I was given the steps that Levi took to try to settle the issue, it basically boiled down to: Levi felt disrespected when francis told him to shut up. Being that this is the internet and it is difficult to infer the meaning from any statement, I believe francis' statement was taken out of context. Though we all heard "He told me to shut up". What I was told by francis was that it was "Levi, shut up and listen to me". I believe this was francis' attempt to get a ruling based on the in-game situation that the match had ended with before the dispute.
2. Retro-active saves are a bad idea. Set your auto-saves to every turn. You are in a tournament setting, why would you want to reload a game 3 turns back unless it favours you? It was quite clear to me and several other players that Cachola was out for the count barring a miracle of Messianic proportions. He had the advantage in units by 3:1. Not only that, Cachola's cities were too far back to send support and any support he could send could be blocked by Francis' explorer (road your god damn front kiddies 1 road to your front city is not acceptable).
3. There is a lack of precedence when it comes to these tournaments. Rules and laws usually are set by some sort of precedent where a situation arose and after deliberation some sort of ruling was made that would affect all later similar scenarios. This match dispute would have been a great precedence setter, unfortunately, the ruling was one that was based upon emotion. I know the admins/TDs do take a lot of flak from the community and th at you are here from love of the game. However, that does not give a blank cheque to be able to rule arbitrarily. There is a huge lack of checks and balances in the ladder system and that flaw reveals itself in almost every CCC. Which leads into my last observation.
4. There may be some consistent admins/TDs in terms of CCC attendance, however their judgement calls are not very consistent, which I believe ties into there being a lack of precedent in tournament match decisions. Where a player can be boxed or disqualified, what can be done about a bad call by an admin? When an admin is clearly wrong on a matter, sweeping it under the rug does nothing for the community. An apology should be made, it is a simple mistake by the admins/TDs. If you want to make something more of it, go ahead, let this spiral out of control and let the drama continue every CCC. Otherwise, just swallow your pride, admit your mistake, and the next CCC should be better due to it.
I had a feeling that francis was a smurf and I believe the admins/TDs believe it as well. That is a separate issue from the ruling that occurred during the match in question. Please do not bring up the smurfing issue as a red herring and please let us know what will be done to prevent bad calls from affecting match outcomes in the future.
Again, from what I know about the situation, francis did nothing wrong. His statement was taken out of context and then used a pretext to resolve a situation. This is the core issue that I would to be answered out of this long ass post that I made.
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Post by deyreepher on Nov 12, 2007 2:50:27 GMT -5
Another issue.
CCC still needs more prep work. I have no clue how a Great Plains map was included into the roster. That was just atrocious.
A more thorough check of the CCC rosters is in order. Sending some sort of group email to each team to confirm rosters would be in order, otherwise you get the fake clan that francis was in skewing the CCC results.
Well, you do have alot on your plate with the new site coming online, but you may want to think about longer term organizational structures to your staff and event planning. Otherwise, keep the improvements coming.
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[KC]Bopper
Worker
The Knight Who Says 'Giddy-Up!'
Posts: 136
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Post by [KC]Bopper on Nov 12, 2007 3:28:55 GMT -5
Hey francis089, you seem very familiar to me. Do I know you by another name? How come no one else in your clan played any games in the CCC? Why are your clan mates unranked? I know my clan didn't really rock this CCC however we have alot of folks who play together and practice hours each day, and we enjoy ourselves. Does your clan actually play together?
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Post by MMV on Nov 12, 2007 7:34:21 GMT -5
As from another post - what does his event protest have to do with the following?
There was only one who played from that clan (ComPWNED) was God of Civ (aka francis in these forums) aka rokkit - duplicate account.
he came from within.
he's done it before.
Consequently, he directly robbed ONE of the CCC clan of 5 points before being caught.
The difference? Clans who placed 2-5 would have had different standings, and indeed - who know's what the overall outcome could/would have been had this player not used a false-name via duplicate accounts.
Without that fake clan and a player with an intentional second ladder account, there would have been a different seeding in that game (and others) before he was caught, totally throwing a curve into all of the subsequent CCC games - and perhaps MUD could have won.
Who knows? ALL bad.
If he had GOOD intentions, all he had to do was change his name, not create a new one with the other still existing.
It's more like a waste of everyone's time for those who played against him, had to deal with his claims of bias, the TD's and admins involved, and it's effects on every clan for the entire CCC.
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Post by rokkitlauncher on Nov 12, 2007 9:13:01 GMT -5
lol wtf, i provided a perfectly good explanation of the situation via email you moron.
francis089 in the forums is actually also francis089 in the ccc, surprisingly
godofciv and francis were from completely different clans and never even played each other. francis089 was from clan [ABP].. lol
get your facts straight before you start throwing around insults like this in a public forum
im not francis either, since when do i have low graphics enabled on my screenshots, problems with connectivity and why would i even need a duplicate account to play in the ccc?
please answer my emails which provide perfect explanations to any situations before you blame me for being someone i hadn't even heard of until i checked out the rosters myself
are there any admins without a personal hatred of me so i can tell them the situation and have myself and francis089 removed from the penalty box?
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Post by Tony on Nov 12, 2007 9:27:11 GMT -5
This still doesn’t change the fact that there was a totally disgraceful call made by someone that should be neutral.
Sure rokkit shouldn’t have had 2 accounts – but that’s a different issue.
He has done the ladder a favour IMO. He has shown Levi for the biased phoney he is, that only cares about this “virtual power” he has worked so hard for. He blatantly discriminated against the “new guy” because he was told to shut up, which is almost laughable and because the “new guy” wouldn’t have anyone in his corner – easiest target.
Before someone says TD’s give up there time for free, we should all be grateful – they will make mistakes from time to time. This is true, but this was not a miss-call, its was discrimination because he could…Big difference.
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Post by rokkitlauncher on Nov 12, 2007 9:29:32 GMT -5
Sure rokkit shouldn’t have had 2 accounts – but that’s a different issue. that issue has had a proper explanation delivered, and i have literally no idea why myself and francis are still in the penalty box
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Post by TheClash on Nov 12, 2007 9:48:41 GMT -5
lol wtf, i provided a perfectly good explanation of the situation via email you moron. he rokkit, MMV isnt an Admin I m sure real Admins will read your mail
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Post by rokkitlauncher on Nov 12, 2007 9:52:59 GMT -5
ohh, i got mmv mixed up with DTA, no offense DTA!
so mmv posted this message blaming me for everything without even checked who i had been accused of being, and without consulting the admins over whether i have provided a reasonable explanation
i think this is all because i joined kc, and then did nothing for them (i only did this to get back at them for rejecting me from their clan 2 years ago !!)
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Post by MMV on Nov 12, 2007 9:56:35 GMT -5
you've sent me no emails (and I'd forward them to admins if you did)
you DID contact me via YIM a few minutes ago and told me that you were francis, and that there was yet another francis, and that the entire thing is your wife's fault.
No matter to me - you don't effect my life one bit
And, as the disease posted behind you, I'm not an admin and don't claim to be.
But, that doesn't change a SINGLE thing - only that you now CLAIM that you have several accounts on the ladder; rokkit, francis, another francis - and of course the other (but blame the wife, lol).
No matter, you're suspended, boxed, stuffed, trussed, and ready for Thanksgiving.
The holidays make it ALL worthwhile, lol!
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Post by TheClash on Nov 12, 2007 10:06:07 GMT -5
And, as the disease posted behind you, I'm not an admin and don't claim to be. Are you abusing me Like you always poste about Ladder Rules: It is illegal to abuse or harrass another Ladder member.
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Post by rokkitlauncher on Nov 12, 2007 10:32:23 GMT -5
you've sent me no emails (and I'd forward them to admins if you did) you DID contact me via YIM a few minutes ago and told me that you were francis, and that there was yet another francis, and that the entire thing is your wife's fault. No matter to me - you don't effect my life one bit And, as the disease posted behind you, I'm not an admin and don't claim to be. But, that doesn't change a SINGLE thing - only that you now CLAIM that you have several accounts on the ladder; rokkit, francis, another francis - and of course the other (but blame the wife, lol). No matter, you're suspended, boxed, stuffed, trussed, and ready for Thanksgiving. The holidays make it ALL worthwhile, lol! WTF wtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtf what a liar, please post any of that conversation where i suposedly admit i am francis omg get a life you absolute idiot
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Post by Bantams on Nov 12, 2007 13:21:56 GMT -5
WTF lol rokkit aint francis do you really think he would pick such a dumb name him being a fellow Brit and all as to the FFA king MMV he Should be boxed for insulting Balmung as he did!
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Post by Bantams on Nov 12, 2007 13:30:39 GMT -5
Did Levi get sent that screenie because there is no-way Cachola could survive that. If Levi was told Cachola dropped and that was the situation, it should never have resulted in a reload turns back, that game is over as one city elimination. Unfortunately we have to take Francis word for it that he did have so many units wonder why he failed to highlight them for the screenshot before uploading it here though for all we know he might just have the 2 units im assuming cachola was the AI civ leading in the screenshot on points at the time since francis seem to have reloaded the game as Cacholas CIV
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Post by MMV on Nov 12, 2007 13:49:03 GMT -5
i had a first round match set up with Cachola. We had connection issues, but after 1 hour, got the game started up successfully..... yada yada yada WHO is that a quote from? WHO is saying they are NOT that person? WHO is asking to be shown and given proof? Daily Results - Saturday 11-10-2007 francis089 gets 30 days in the penalty box Duplicate Account Inquiry. - DTA Rokkitlauncher gets 30 days in the penalty box Duplicate Account Inquiry. - DTA Hmmmm a lot of "francis089" there once again - it does not matter, I will ONLY forward our yim conversation to an admin at their request.
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Post by rokkitlauncher on Nov 12, 2007 14:18:54 GMT -5
no, i want to see what you will send, how do i know that you will not just make up half a conversation that never happened, i wouldnt put it past you right now
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Post by AngelofLove on Nov 12, 2007 15:54:58 GMT -5
you know you guys this thread is really sad everyone putting every one else down rokkit/franis or who ever u r u duplicted count wrong period dont be mad for being in a box for doing some thing wrong w/e was done was done maybe for next ccc the admints can work out some thing were this making up clans and all dont happen or making use of muliple accounts i dont know and further more levi does what he thinks is right he has alot going on in a ccc so mistakes can happen but i was in lobby when this argument started and i saw levi trying to help and fix things but no one could agree on the same thing THIS IS NOT BURGER KING YOU CANT HAVE IT YOUR WAY compromise
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Post by Death to ALL on Nov 12, 2007 15:56:52 GMT -5
I'm locking this before it gets more out of hand.
On the issue of Levi's call on this match. There is a set procedure to follow if a player/clan disagrees with a call made. That is to have it reviewed by a panel of Admins/TD's. This procedure was not followed by francis in this case. He/She never contacted any of the other admins or staff in the lobby at the time to request this review, but instead came here.
As to the case of Rokkit and francis being possible duplicate accounts and the issue of APB possibly being a fake clan. This is still under review by the admin team.
DTA
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