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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 29, 2007 23:11:20 GMT -5
I want to make the ladders policy clear on an issue that seems to be not understood well by many.
There are only two statements in our rules about subs:
1. That they be of comparable skill to the player they replaced. 2. That in a team game, both Captains agree to the sub.
That is it. No were does it say that getting a sub gets you out of reporting to all players in a team game when you leave one. The rule about reporting to all players(including your team mates) when you leave a team game is in full effect. So you had better make sure you understand this or that EVERY player in that game says that you don't need to report to them. Because when the NR Admin gets a report on you, saying that you got a sub to replace you is not a valid excuse.
Other than the above two statements, subs are a gentlemen's agreement, they are good Samaritans that are saving your game. They do not have to report losses as they are not a original member of the game and the departing player is reporting losses as the starting player. An although it is not in the rules, to thank the sub for there time I would report the wins to them if they are on the winning team, this is just good sportsmanship. That being said the NR Admin is not going to process NR's for or against subs, as far as we are concerned that player never was part of the game, they are just an intelligent AI civ.
Make sure that you actually understand the real rules, popular rumour, other players "I think" ideas and "that is how we did it last game" are no excuse for not reading and understanding the true rules. And if you have a question feel free to ask one of the admins, we are glad to help anyone.
CS
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Post by Gogf on May 1, 2007 15:53:26 GMT -5
Is there any chance that this policy be reviewed?
In my career as a ladder player, I've seen my fair share of subs, but I have NEVER seen someone demand reports from a teammate who found a fair sub before leaving. There's a good reason for that: forcing someone to report to everyone in a game they had to leave because of some sort of pressing real life issue accomplishes absolutely nothing. We generally expect players who have to leave to do their best to find a fair sub beforehand and then report (to the other team) if their team loses after they leave.
Chronic game-leavers can become a problem, but it's easy enough to exclude these people from our games.
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Post by churchill1 on May 1, 2007 17:33:17 GMT -5
No were does it say that getting a sub gets you out of reporting to all players in a team game when you leave one. The rule about reporting to all players(including your team mates) when you leave a team game is in full effect. Yep I agree with The Gogf, that has never made sense to me. And tbh if I have had to leave in the past I never do report to my teamates and surprisingly no-one has ever emailed me or filed a non-report for that . This rule is generally not adhered to and everyone I have come across is fine with that, so imo scrap it.
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 1, 2007 19:17:11 GMT -5
While I agree with your sentiments, I don't think that we could make an enforceable rule that says that real life emergencies are valid reasons to not apply the team quitting rule.
That rule was put in place in response to a growing problem(at the time) of people quitting and therefore ruining team games. And it was well supported by the vast majority of the ladder.
I'm fine with mature players excusing there peers from reporting due to real life issues, but I don't see how we could make this a rule with out opening pandora's box to every excuse by every player under the sun.
We could discuss whether getting a sub that was agreeable to all could relieve you of this rule, but it would have to be something that can be proved or disproved easily enough that the NR admin could rule in disputed cases without every case turning into a "he said she said" situation.
CS
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Post by Necrominousss on May 1, 2007 22:34:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure what the rule is, or was, but with civ3 I played many teamers. The understood rule by all I ever played with was that if a player left or quit a game, he would report to all on the opposing team only. Also if the team the sub played on ended up winning, the sub would receive courtesy reports for all on the opposing team, usually with at thank you buddy added for his time. Seemed to work well.
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Post by toratoratora on May 2, 2007 7:15:00 GMT -5
I agree with the Majority nobody adheres to this rule its like a Gentlemans Agreemant you just get a equall Sub report losses to other team only say GG thanks Bye guys thats it thats how its been in my entire time on the ladder and the Sub of course dosnt report Losses but gets the reports if on the winning Team!
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Post by longhorn on May 2, 2007 9:38:59 GMT -5
Game-Specific Rules :
DON’T QUIT GAMES:
Players entering games should know they are able to dedicate several hours of play time, or they shouldn't start the game. If you voluntarily quit a game, whatever the reason, you must report a loss to every remaining player in the match. That's right, report to everyone, whether or not it is a team game
If someone leaves a game (for whatever reason), the remaining players have the right to either continue playing the game, scrap the game, concede the game, or allow a substitute. A substitute should be of comparable skill. In a team game, the two captains have to agree that a substitute is fair. In a non-team game, it requires a unanimous vote of all remaining players. If the players cannot agree to scrap, concede, or to allow a substitute, the game must continue to its conclusion without the missing player(s).
Once again I was involved in a team game that was RUINED because someone left. The 2 captains were not able to agree on a 'fair' substitute.
When you quit a teamer and you get an acceptable sub, congratulations-- you have done the right thing, now take comfort in the knowledge that your leaving MAY not have ruined everyone elses game and PROMPTLY REPORT TO ALL.
For those of you that argue real life takes priority over civ, I tell you 2 things. 1) Your time is NO MORE IMPORTANT than any other player in that games time. 2) Report- life has a lot of choices and consequences for your actions. Reporting to all players in the game (YES EVEN YOUR OWN TEAM) is yours!
NON REPORTS FILED AGAINST QUITTERS ARE FORCED!
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Post by deviousdevil on May 2, 2007 11:12:28 GMT -5
Excellent work admins recently from what I've heard chasing down the less honourable ladderites. The sub issue has always annoyed me, now it is clear, you leave, you report as this idea of getting a sub of comparable ability is a nonsense.
Subs should be their to let a game continue, but for the quitter there is a forfeit in reports, simple as.
Now, back to cleaning up GOD of the less worthy members.
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Post by deyreepher on May 6, 2007 2:36:02 GMT -5
My solution to this is...don't play ladder games. Clans need practice for the CCC, find yourself another clan that has enough members for a teamer and do a non-ladder clan match. We've done our fair share of them in RaY.
The ladder is only really around, to ensure that you can find a game where you know the players don't quit. But if you know the players on the other team and you know you'll get a good game, what do reports matter? It's somehow de-evolved into a system all about reports. In this respect, I think the ladder has lost its focus.
It's all about the game...playas.
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Post by geforced on May 6, 2007 10:31:35 GMT -5
i liked the old 'rule' oh well if i have to leave the computer ill just put everything on autobuild so ill only end up reporting one team
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 7, 2007 16:37:06 GMT -5
My solution to this is...don't play ladder games. Clans need practice for the CCC, find yourself another clan that has enough members for a teamer and do a non-ladder clan match. We've done our fair share of them in RaY. The ladder is only really around, to ensure that you can find a game where you know the players don't quit. But if you know the players on the other team and you know you'll get a good game, what do reports matter? It's somehow de-evolved into a system all about reports. In this respect, I think the ladder has lost its focus. It's all about the game...playas. I agree Dey, but unfortunately there are many people that do care about the numbers beside there names, some far too much. But if it wasn't for that part of human nature the ladder wouldn't be able to leverage that part of human nature to arrive at the state of finding players that won't quit. And ofcourse some people wouldn't abide by rules unless they have a hammer over there head. Unfortunately it is the 1% that causes us 99% of the problems an it is they that the rules are there to give the "hammer" the force that it needs. CS
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Post by deyreepher on May 7, 2007 19:16:11 GMT -5
My solution to this is...don't play ladder games. Clans need practice for the CCC, find yourself another clan that has enough members for a teamer and do a non-ladder clan match. We've done our fair share of them in RaY. The ladder is only really around, to ensure that you can find a game where you know the players don't quit. But if you know the players on the other team and you know you'll get a good game, what do reports matter? It's somehow de-evolved into a system all about reports. In this respect, I think the ladder has lost its focus. It's all about the game...playas. I agree Dey, but unfortunately there are many people that do care about the numbers beside there names, some far too much. But if it wasn't for that part of human nature the ladder wouldn't be able to leverage that part of human nature to arrive at the state of finding players that won't quit. And ofcourse some people wouldn't abide by rules unless they have a hammer over there head. Unfortunately it is the 1% that causes us 99% of the problems an it is they that the rules are there to give the "hammer" the force that it needs. CS Hammer away, Hebrew Hammer.
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Post by zzZhenon on May 8, 2007 3:45:39 GMT -5
To be more practical, it's more difficult to remember 10 people in a teamer than it is to report to the 5 people on the opposing team.
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Post by toratoratora on May 8, 2007 8:14:01 GMT -5
To be more practical, it's more difficult to remember 10 people in a teamer than it is to report to the 5 people on the opposing team. Use A Bloody Pen and Paper then
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Post by MMV on May 8, 2007 9:55:36 GMT -5
The "sub rule" (or agreement/whatever) has been in effect since way back in C3 before they even started working on C4 and it carried over to C4 with the rest of the rules - no changes. I think some are (still) complaining about the more enforced penalties for non-reports. basically? Everyone knew it was this way when you started the game, no matter how hard it's convoluted or stretching the envelope. There have been NO "new rules" - just the enforcement of old rules and stiffer/ENFORCED penalties for violating them. Once again, rules haven't changed a bit - the penalties have. 19 ladder members voted for different/stiffer penalties for violations of CURRENT rules - 3 voted to keep them the same civ4players.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1173568623&page=1No one here can say that the Admins didn't respond in accordance with the poll they put up.
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Post by Gogf on May 8, 2007 16:19:15 GMT -5
No one here can say that the Admins didn't respond in accordance with the poll they put up. Nobody is saying that, MMV. People are saying that the policy of reporting to everyone in the game (which was not voted on) should be fixed. At the very least, it encourages behavior like what GEFORCED described.
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 8, 2007 16:37:04 GMT -5
Perhaps Gogf but the reason this rule was made in the first place was to prevent people from quitting team games that has a far more serious impact on a game than a player quitting a cton does. If the consensus is to remove this rule we still have the problem of how to deal with people that quit team games. Right now I think that it may not be a perfect solution it is the least of two evils.
CS
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Post by zzZhenon on May 8, 2007 16:43:44 GMT -5
The old rule in civ3 wasn't that the person who subbed out had to report to everyone, he just had to report if his team lost. I don't know when or why it was changed at some point VERY late in the life of civ3 and it oddly carried over here too for some reason. I don't understand why someone should have to report to 10 people if they find themselves a sub. If the person was an ass and quit in anger or whatever, then sure let's make him report for PURPOSEFULLY ruining a game. And if you can't find or agree on a sub, then sure make him report to all 10 people in the game for completely ruining it. The whole point of finding a sub is so as not to ruin the game. So if an agreeable sub is found, there's no harm no foul.
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 8, 2007 18:53:32 GMT -5
Well originally subs were not supported at all, and we have not changed that much here at C4P, I'm not sure when they made subs official at C3P but it was after I left as an admin there. Personally I think that making subs official is a dogs breakfast, it would be extremely difficult to prove or disprove and therefore very difficult to enforce as a rule. In my opinion subs are right were they should be, a gentlemen's agreement, and nothing more. And whether a sub is involved or not, has no impact on the rules that must be applied if a complaint is filed.
CS
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Post by MMV on May 8, 2007 19:14:21 GMT -5
It all sums up very easily in the written rules of the ladder -
Don't quit
Report
If those rules are followed, penalties don't matter.
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