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Post by Atomation on Oct 19, 2006 1:50:54 GMT -5
I realize that perhaps this is a rounded number, but it seems to me that if the probability to win is anything rounded to zero, it should never inflict any damage (or maybe .1 damage max). I don't think it's very balanced when massing 100 units that have 0% to win can still kill just because every other one or so will suddenly get lucky and knock off half the life of a defender in death. It makes units like catapults and chariots, that are very massable, inordinately powerful even against units that supposedly counter them. I have seen a catapult with 0% chance to kill a cossak with 18 str double star take it down to half health....how does that make sense at all? It might as well have killed it, what's the difference! Chariots are even worse, at such a low hammer cost, since a billion of them can be made in no time and they have the flexibility to double move so easily...and with the lucky half life knockoff attacks, spears can die even behind heavy fortifications. And what point is a counter unit when even with such a high probability it can still have it's life knocked down so far so easily?
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Post by Tony on Oct 19, 2006 3:46:55 GMT -5
Auto it seems to me you always complaining about stuff that happens in 1/1000 times. Let 1000 cossacks attack 1000 0.1 str catapults and youll find how piontless complaining about it is!
Its kinda like somsone complaining they always get stuck by lightning after the first time it happens.
It seems to me you need a mod, where units do not require resources and who ever has the odds on winning a battle always does.
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Post by Atomation on Oct 19, 2006 4:02:57 GMT -5
Tony it happens alot with massable units....it's nothing like getting struck by lightning. It's these fluke shots that make catapults so good well out of their era, and why people love massing obscene stacks of chariots (I can't say I don't do it either - it's way too effective, however extremely newb friendly).
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Post by IanDC on Oct 19, 2006 5:59:01 GMT -5
Historically if you throw enough people in you can grind down or overwhelm technologically superior forces even when they're dug in.
Witness the Chinese in the Korean War, the Zulu war, The Vietnam War & to a degree the Eastern front WWII & the fall of the Roman Empire.
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Post by yilar on Oct 19, 2006 7:24:01 GMT -5
Yes, lets make units invicible!
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Post by pooky on Oct 19, 2006 11:12:19 GMT -5
it makes sense
after the 20th chariot
surely the infantry has run out of ammo and must die.
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Post by smuckey on Oct 19, 2006 11:33:10 GMT -5
MLL aka Atomation is flying off the handle once again as he can't stand losing when he plays poorly, and likes to blame things anything but him for losing. 0%? Not even close. The odds were in my favor, and I would have been pissed not to take his cap. I sent 14 charriots to his cap, where he had 1 catapult, 1 skirmisher and 1 spear. Hmmm, he expects to win that? Maybe he should watch the power graph, have sentries, etc rather then making wonders. Maybe also he should convince Sid Meyer to bow to his every whim and complaint about the game. It's also pretty cheap to quit right away when I will take another city, so the comp gets to immediately move before me, thus negating my advantage to weak cities. If you don't like it, don't play it...I know it's hard reporting to everyone in a cton...don't hate the game...hate the player. (which there is plenty of that)
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Post by Atomation on Oct 19, 2006 11:44:30 GMT -5
It was 2 spears with 1 star (1 just slaved and built), 1 cata and 1 skirmisher with city defense 1, and 60% city culture, get your facts straight. And thanks to me you got a report from gametheory - that's not exactly "just building wonders", I had ONE wonder, the hanging gardens, and I had stone to build it.
Fyi, a spear with 1 star behind the 60% defense has 4.4 + 160% = 11.44 defense = 0% attack chariot...how did you have "odds". The problem is when a spear loses .1 health from 1 chariot, it's actually losing .11*2.6 combat strength, and therein lies the flaw with the countering system. All the combat damage is amplified by the percentage bonus the spear normally receives. It seems the intended downside of massing many tiny units is a higher maintenance, which is not drastic enough for short multiplayer games, while probably fine in single player. But that's why I don't see this ever getting changed - the game is again balanced for single player....
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Post by smuckey on Oct 19, 2006 12:50:41 GMT -5
If you want to get your facts straight and do the math, I guess the game lies about who made Stonehenge? Also, every one of my charriots had upgrades on em...there is no dramatic flaw in the game...if you throw enough units (same era) at only a few, logically you should win.
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Post by DrShot on Oct 19, 2006 14:00:59 GMT -5
Auto it seems to me you always complaining about stuff that happens in 1/1000 times. Let 1000 cossacks attack 1000 0.1 str catapults and youll find how piontless complaining about it is! Its kinda like somsone complaining they always get stuck by lightning after the first time it happens. It seems to me you need a mod, where units do not require resources and who ever has the odds on winning a battle always does. Excellent! now this is my kind of thread. "Its kinda like somsone complaining they always get stuck by lightning after the first time it happens." <-- it was worth repeating another time . On the note of odds, that means there is a chance otherwise it would simply say yes or no for kill possibility...what fun it would be then. really it sounds like you underestimated suky and got irritated. to say that it is a single player(style) game, well the game parameters are equal for all players, no?
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Post by DrShot on Oct 19, 2006 14:02:44 GMT -5
Historically if you throw enough people in you can grind down or overwhelm technologically superior forces even when they're dug in. Witness the Chinese in the Korean War, the Zulu war, The Vietnam War & to a degree the Eastern front WWII & the fall of the Roman Empire. Well put Ian, with one fatal flaw(fatal, get it ) the Roman Empire was mostly brought down due to disease and blight/ plague and over expansion, not to mention corruption. However your point it right on, IMO.
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Post by DrShot on Oct 19, 2006 14:05:45 GMT -5
it makes sense after the 20th chariot surely the infantry has run out of ammo and must die. This is argueable. There is a time when the platoon leader says afix bayonet... thats when ya know yer screwed! not like 5000 sioux would hve been over taken by Custer adn his 214 meen had they had bayonets... Hmm, watching Michael Cain in ZULU was an inspiring moment... for the Zulu.
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Post by DrShot on Oct 19, 2006 14:12:18 GMT -5
It was 2 spears with 1 star (1 just slaved and built), 1 cata and 1 skirmisher with city defense 1, and 60% city culture, get your facts straight. And thanks to me you got a report from gametheory - that's not exactly "just building wonders", I had ONE wonder, the hanging gardens, and I had stone to build it. But that's why I don't see this ever getting changed - the game is again balanced for single player.... so you had 4 units in a city with 14 chariots attacking? it takes 4 chariots to off each of the two spears(likely overkill!) this leaves 3 chariots (each) to take out the cat and the skirmi and atleast one of the 14 (original) to survive to occupy the city... upon furthur review I fail to see why you spent so much time as to even start this thread, unless of course, you titled it 'venting' or to the like.
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Post by tommynt on Oct 19, 2006 14:12:58 GMT -5
Ya these threads are funny but get boring over time.
The concept off masses being able to overhelm few strong ones is aswell good for the game as realistic same time. 100 man WILL OVERRUN a tank and get a granade or so in it.
mll i ll explain u the combat concept of the game once: injured units fight like nuts!!! i had once like 35 catas attacking 3 injured dudes and some newbuilt unit (think it was archer) in city - I lost em ALL, without killing a single unit - they were injured, all between something like 0,8 and 3,1 hp. Injured units fight nuts So once 1 chariot get semilucky and injures the spear the next chariot ll kill it off with good odds.
The good thing about civ is that u may be able to still win after loosing 35 Catas
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Post by Atomation on Oct 19, 2006 14:45:25 GMT -5
Unless they were injured mechanised infantry with 31.9 health you are totally full of crap tommynt rofl....
I think the topic has strayed quite a bit here....it's obvious that 14 chariots didn't just get lucky, they will win pretty consistently there...but that's not the point. You guys say swarming should work like that, but with a chariot that has 2 moves it becomes very difficult if not impossible to protect from enormous stacks of chariots like that since they can threaten several cities at once and they are so incredibly inexpensive. This is why it becomes important that 0% battles do not injure lone spearmen so severely - the spears need to be split up to defend multiple cities. It seems the only true counter to that stack is building mass chariots of your own....or something else that also has two moves.
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Post by mrgametheory on Oct 19, 2006 14:48:58 GMT -5
In my defense, I only died that game because im sick with the "Super Flu" and was on enough medication to kill midget, I could barely process what was going on let alone defend an empire, I was simply playing that game in order to curtail my paranoia and to stop wigging out for taking way to much medication lol.
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Post by pooky on Oct 19, 2006 15:15:02 GMT -5
the best defense against giant stacks of chariots is to not chop ur forests so they can't cruise thru ur land, by letting ur forests grow and building roads thru them, u r effectively cutting the enemy chariot movement greatly and force them to be crappy 1 move units that can't threaten multiple cities cuz they have to slowly move through your land.
The only reason chariots r so damn powerful is cuz people r slows and chop all their forests down so enemy chariots can just waltz right in.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Oct 19, 2006 16:44:23 GMT -5
One point to remember is that since 1.61 and including WL 200, attack power is the average of the full strenght value and the injured health value, were as before 1.61 only the injured value was used in calculations. And ofcourse as stated these are "odds", which means that sometimes the 1% unit will win.
CS
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Post by MookieNJ on Oct 19, 2006 23:20:22 GMT -5
As frustrating as it is, a lot of us play more than enough Civ to see the 1 in 1000 events actually occur.
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 20, 2006 8:04:46 GMT -5
Fyi, a spear with 1 star behind the 60% defense has 4.4 + 160% = 11.44 defense = 0% attack chariot...how did you have "odds". The problem is when a spear loses .1 health from 1 chariot, it's actually losing .11*2.6 combat strength, and therein lies the flaw with the countering system. All the combat damage is amplified by the percentage bonus the spear normally receives. Are you suggesting the chariot should take away 0.1 from the spear's modified strength of 11.44, rather than its base strength of 4?
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