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Post by ironclad on Aug 16, 2006 16:12:44 GMT -5
cats are not suppose to be an attacking force and be most of a stack.. they are there to bombard units/cities
here is what i think we should change cats to:
-can do collateral damage on units, and is injured in process when attacking
-has a 30 percent chance of withdraw when attacking
-not sure if cats should either be destroyed or captured when attacked one of the two, they have no defense value only can collateral, cannot attack
-can bombard cites down
-can bombard roads in a one tile radius
;D
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Post by AngelOnEarth on Aug 16, 2006 17:56:18 GMT -5
there is a mod named "dale's combat mod" (link somewhere in the mod section, only for vanilla though) where the way bombardment is used was changed more to the way it works in c3c - so you can select a tile and bombard it (i don't know if catas have a strength at all or if they are even able to normally attack, did not test it because of explanation following). this way it's even worse, i tried some games with the conclusion that catas are even more powerful. just sit in city with your stack, wait till attacker's stack arrives and just bombard out of safe city dealing damage to enemy stack but not loosing any health at all - how funny is that? you don't even loose a single cata, so you can do same at start of next turn again leaving a heavily wounded attacker stack with you in full health if you can grab a safe place, like a forest hill early and fortify enough units on it, you can shoot back and make it even more funny. just send some catas there and do some hilarious bombard on city defender stack ... it's only a race of collateral damage then, the luckily does more will wipe out the other after 20 bombard rounds ;D
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Post by tommynt on Aug 16, 2006 20:04:45 GMT -5
this topic was started like 5 times allready, maybe page back ic
in the end it comes down that catas are somewhat needed to be able to counter mixed unit stacks but that they r too powerful for their low price. Like every1 agrees to either reduced strength or higher price.
On other hand developers wanted to make game defence orientated and easy to win on sp - for both purposes clever cata use does a big deal
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Post by notagoodname on Aug 16, 2006 20:15:47 GMT -5
Collateral shouldn't damage moving units - make collateral only work on units that have fortified/remained stationary on a square for at least one turn.
So if the enemy moves up to your base and stops for one turn to bombard city defenses or plunder land you could bombarb him civ3 style.
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Post by decepticon on Aug 16, 2006 20:42:27 GMT -5
catas are not overpowered if you know how to properly move your units
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Post by tommynt on Aug 17, 2006 3:24:05 GMT -5
YOu r so right deceteption, also chariots suck at killling axe in wl or not?
why d every decent anc player have a army consisting of about 50% catas if they weren t really GOOD
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Post by Tony on Aug 17, 2006 9:10:00 GMT -5
Catas are a very silly unit in CIV4 IMO, the whole warring angle is totally boring this is easily the biggest screw up from C3C ---> CIV4.
As for the cata problem maybe a solution would be to take off there collateral ability, and they just injure 1 unit! Think about it, this would allow you to attack the choker without him getting premoted and this would also be good to deal with stacks if you have enough catapults, if a 20 stack shows up and you have 15 catapults you can hit it 2 times before it attacks.
And catapults/cannons/artillery not being able to break worker improvements kinda takes half the fun out of them!
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Post by coloneltreize on Aug 17, 2006 12:35:39 GMT -5
I think it sucks that in a game with technology being equal between you and your opponent, cats and other siege weapons are trumped by all units in the rock/paper/scissors scheme. That's why I love promoted trebuchets for city attack. ;D
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Post by lporiginalg on Aug 17, 2006 17:56:45 GMT -5
Ya and people say they keep them as pets but really they're prisoners, it's time to get realistic here people.
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Post by decepticon on Aug 17, 2006 18:44:38 GMT -5
catas are fine. learn how to move your units so you don't keep getting killed by them
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Post by notagoodname on Aug 17, 2006 19:21:23 GMT -5
It isn't so much that cats are that good.
I actually think the real problem is that everything in civ can be countered if you use the right counter and the defender always gets the opportunity to use the counter.
It explains why ren is so popular. There isn't a dedicated counter to cavalry so attacking doesn't cost you 10X more hammers than defending, probably closer to 1.1X more.
ie. The ancient era problem -
Move an axemen into enemy land. Chariot counters, you lose an axe for nothing. Move a spearman in. Axe counters, you lose a spearman for nothing. Move a chariot/horse in. Spear counters, you lose a horse/chariot for nothing. Individual units are all countered by other individual units.
Move an axeman and a spearman and get catapulted once and then killed by 2 axes. Move a spearmen and a chariot and get catapulted once and then killed by 2 axes (chariots don't get axeman bonus on defense). Move a chariot spearmen and axeman and get catapulted and killed by 3 axes. Stacks are all countered by catapults.
This means that there is no point in going near enemy cities in ancient unless you have a huge advantage or lots of defense bonuses as both stacks and individual units are countered.
Elephants, longbows and crossbows are decent as they have no ancient countering unit but they are all more expensive than catapults. So if you attack with a single longbow/crossbow you will be catapulted with a sacrificial cat and then finished off with another catapult.
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Post by Tony on Aug 17, 2006 19:46:22 GMT -5
Yeah nota this is why warring is just soo damm boring, no suprise attacks, no quick thinking ... Nothing! Just the same manouvers game in-game-out!
You have to have greater power then your enermy, this is such 1 dimentional fighting.
Even elephant/longbow combos are BS, because they will easily get hit with 2 catapults and 2 swords, or 4 catapults. You lose 2 catapults (80 hammers) the other dude loses elephant plus longbow (110 hammers or 120 if you use crossbow)! And thanx for the XP premotions btw!
Some people say something about sending 2 stacks, this will only work if:
a) You are fighting an idiot b) you have overwhelming units
So you are pretty much left with a few choices,
1) Sit back and defend and try to win on score 2) Choke early, this will ruin mfg/research so you can later move in for the kill! 3) Catch up on some reading between turns
So this cleverness with unit movements, i would really like to know, because i havnt been able to figure out anything clever that would even kill an average player with equal-ish power/units!
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Post by decepticon on Aug 17, 2006 19:47:50 GMT -5
4 axe, 3 spear, 2 archer, and any # of catas marching into enemy lands. stack of mounted units following one square or two behind.
soon as he wastes his cats move the mounted units up to cover. As long as you advance into their land and you have units to cover after cats hit..... the better for you...let him make catas and waste them.
healer units help. always form a train of units if you are advancing early... make the first stack big enough so it survives the cata strike then cover your units.
heck you could even send along a general and promote your units after a cata strike. or you can just not upgrade all of your units until the catas hit...then upgrade and instant health back.
learn how to move your units. i disagree completely with posts that say you have to hole up
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Post by notagoodname on Aug 17, 2006 20:06:06 GMT -5
Decipticon that won't work on a good player unless you really outnumber him. Even if he is silly enough to use all his cats in one hit and slow enough not to hit with another stack straight after the cats you still have to wait a turn before you can heal (units can't heal while moving). So he can slave another cat and hit your mounted and newly promoted units next turn at which point axes or spears or mounted will be able to kill all the units in that stack.
The first cat strike should bring your axes down to 3 or less health anway (axemen would be the primary defenders in that stack and would take the brunt of the cats damage). At which point his spears should beat the majority of your axes, your damaged spears, your archers, your damaged cats and your mounted units.
Also cats are 1:1 strength with axes and they beat spears and archers. Your stack will sustain huge loses from the intial cat strike alone (his first cat may die but every one of his cats after that should get a kill as your units are now collaterally damaged). You really need an elephant or 2 on top to take the main attack of the cat (the rest can take the collateral).
Basically your plan relies on defensive terrain.
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Post by Tony on Aug 17, 2006 20:16:19 GMT -5
4 axe, 3 spear, 2 archer, and any # of catas marching into enemy lands. stack of mounted units following one square or two behind. soon as he wastes his cats move the mounted units up to cover. As long as you advance into their land and you have units to cover after cats hit..... the better for you...let him make catas and waste them. healer units help. always form a train of units if you are advancing early... make the first stack big enough so it survives the cata strike then cover your units. heck you could even send along a general and promote your units after a cata strike. or you can just not upgrade all of your units until the catas hit...then upgrade and instant health back. learn how to move your units. i disagree completely with posts that say you have to hole up LOL? Is this a joke? This will not work on any decent player, because they will have a road going up to where the units are coming from, then they will stack attack with X catapults, this does not give you time to cover, and you know where your injured cataputs will lie so you can cover them with a few spears if they have horse archers behind them. Or this can be done from inside the city. Bringing a stack that is sooo big that alot of it lives after catapults?? This would mean unbelivablly big loses! Normally on your strongest most expansive units too! These tactics only work in ren, this is why... Because you are facing very strong units 8-15 str which is ALOT bigger then 5, so you have you catapult first and then hit with other, stronger units, this give the attacker time to move this units to cover the catapuled units. This is a total abuse of sim-moves, WAY bigger then double moves ever is! The need to hit the same unit(s) with mutiple units creates this non-sense super abuse!!
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Post by decepticon on Aug 17, 2006 20:33:38 GMT -5
ok it doesn't work i just made it up.... don't upgrade after catas hit that won't help...don't move units to cover your stacks that won't help...don't use great general to upgrade a stack of guys that won't work....
you are the supreme all knowing civ players
good bye forums...no sense in giving advice here
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Post by notagoodname on Aug 17, 2006 20:44:08 GMT -5
ok it doesn't work i just made it up.... don't upgrade after catas hit that won't help...don't move units to cover your stacks that won't help...don't use great general to upgrade a stack of guys that won't work.... you are the supreme all knowing civ players good bye forums...no sense in giving advice here Read why it doesn't work, i even gave advice as to how it could be better (elephants or defensive terrain). You have a stack of units where the strongest has 5 strength. Cats have 5 strength and collateral so once the first collateral hits every catapult will get a kill on your stack. You need something above 5 strength (horses and elephants are good) on the top to take the catapults attack otherwise cats alone will kill you. Even then you need a lot more than the enemy.
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