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Post by churchill1 on Oct 19, 2006 9:49:23 GMT -5
In last month i always building 1 cite ... lol. When I get horse start my neighbours tend to go for this OCC approach too.
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 19, 2006 9:53:02 GMT -5
The key to playing in ladder games is sticking to the basics. In general buildings take a long time to really pay off, so you will want to build things that build your civ up quickly, like making more cities and lots of workers to work each one as you build them, and always having good military. In cton it's often much better to be a big threat to someone else rather than sit back to watch yourself get attacked from many places unpredictably. Very good points. The key is control. If you can't kill someone easily enough, have a sentinel net miles out of your borders or have units in his borders. Ideally anyway . Also get to know player's styles. For example one guy, knight_owl is the most aggressive guy on the planet, if you don't kill him expect to be killed .
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Post by pooky on Oct 19, 2006 10:48:09 GMT -5
build giant stacks of chariots(120-150)
and use them to kill people.
Ur economy will be nuts but u don't need any tech after wheel anyway cuz Chariot is clearly the best unit eva.
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Post by pooky on Oct 19, 2006 11:27:27 GMT -5
The only techs that r worth getting in an anc start are: Wheel, Animal Husbandry and Pottery.(mining for production if u don't start with it mebbe)
The reason for this is because chariot is the most obscenely overpowered unit in the game that you can mass early,(catas take time)
Once u get those 3 key techs in an anc start, you should set research to 0% so you can have lotsa gold for when your giant stack of chariots leaves your borders and costs a crapload to upkeep.
Now some people will cry foul because they think Bronzeworking is a really really important tech. I will now show why it is a crap tech and definitely not worth getting(like all that other crap out there).
What does BW provide?
The Metal Copper(Which is clearly useless since chariot is the most broken ass unit ever and you should never build anything else, much less those stupid 23 hammer units that r slow as hell and take like 10 turns to move to the enemy where they can't even beat a fortifed archer.) Axemen and Spearmen are clearly useless, if some1 tries to hit you with a stack of like 10axes/spears, just hurl 60 chariots at them and laugh when you crush their miserable army)
The ability to chop forests(Some people swear by how awesome forest chopping is, but here you need to consider the longterm ramifications, in Civ3 people mined their grasslands cuz it was the most efficient way to boost production, sadly we don't have this option in civ4 since mining grassland makes no bloody sense. But there's a bonus! our grasslands now come premined as forests AND they provide HEALTH on top of that, how else r u gonna support huge cities without the health of the forest? Also forests provide good defensive outposts with their +50%defend, when the enemy army comes rolling in, would you want your frontline troops to be defending grassland that gives them no bonuses or these forests that r freaking awesome? Sure a worker can chop a forest for 13 hammers, but you'd get those 13 hammers from working that forest for 13 turns anyway, by chopping that forest you are sacrificing longterm productivity for short term gain, do you honestly expect to only live for 13 turns?
The Civic Slavery,
This is probably the most debateable part, slavery is kinda like choppign forests, sacrificing longterm growth and production for a fast short term gain, plus it takes a turn of anarchy to implement unless ur lucky enough to be spiritual. Why is slavery bad? Because it is a black mark upon the morality of your civilization and your society, it is immoral and highly hurtful to longterm growth, also I'm pretty sure there's some RNG thing built in to make units built by slavery to suck at fighting, I can't count how many times I've seen atom's slaved armies get wrecked by a vengeful RNG, kiddos, God is watching and he don't like slavery.
By going 0% tech early after getting those keytechs, your score will be so pathetically low that noone will bother to kill you since you pose no threat to outpoint them and they will never see your giant stacks of chariots coming.
Now you might think that if your combat odds say 0% that means hurling 80 chariots at fortified spearmen in cities with huge cultural def bonuses would be suicide, but this is not the case!!! That spearman gets tired and easily dies to a massive horde of chariots, chances r ur opps r gonna read the msgs above about building 25 cities and gonna have like 10-20 cities with mediocre defenses in each, no1 can defend 20 cities from a stack of 120 chariots, they simply can't have enough units in each city to defend against you and you will be able to brutally crush them.
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 19, 2006 13:58:05 GMT -5
Note2self: keep pooky off horse. Seriously I don't agree with a lot of this. But it was very interesting to read. From my limited experience of playing with you I would say you don't play like this as well.
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 19, 2006 13:59:10 GMT -5
PS. Have you really had a stack of 150 chariots? And how many times have you killed everyone in this way?
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Post by Tony on Oct 19, 2006 14:16:15 GMT -5
Omg even if you do manage to kill your neighbour who cares? by the time you get such a big stack somsone would have won by so much.
Also 120 charriots are easily handled by half that number of spears, with roads. To kill a spear in say a 40% city, you are looking at atleast 3-4 charriots.
I see unbelievable number of flaws in your tactics it just seems wrong top to bottom i personally cant see much right with it(looking at it senstance by sentance), but thats just a personal opinion.
But nice to see people playing diffrently and i must say, its refreshing.
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Post by tommynt on Oct 19, 2006 14:26:24 GMT -5
ya slaving suckzzzzzzz assssssssss and is for nooooooooobs only
no need for other techs as wheel and animal husbandary, better stop teching after and use money to be able to upkeep your 150 chariots. U kill every1 anyway so why bother?
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Post by pooky on Oct 19, 2006 15:04:18 GMT -5
yea tony but NOONE builds 75 spearmen and even if they did they wouldnt be able to keep up with ur massive horde of chariots anyway.
ususally people just build like 10 spearmen and are easy prey
You will just run them over like *snap*
150 chariots should take you like 50 turns to build tops.
You spend the next 60 running around and killing people.
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Post by pooky on Oct 19, 2006 15:11:49 GMT -5
Only noobs need to ruthlessly whip their people into submission to win.
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Post by deviousdevil on Oct 19, 2006 16:57:09 GMT -5
PS. Have you really had a stack of 150 chariots? And how many times have you killed everyone in this way? 150 units period...why do you need to build that many? I believe this is the second bullnuts figure brought out this thread, along with the loads of cities people say they have in ctons, yet my screenies and experience tells me ain't happening. 150 chariots...rofl. What planet this guy on? I kill people, often. I bring very little to the party, but I aim to distract and hit where I'm not expected and it works. 150 chariots...your powergraph will give you away as a threat, it relies on you having horse and ignores the whole choke game and how you handle that.
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Post by ironclad on Oct 19, 2006 17:50:52 GMT -5
"150 chariots should take you like 50 turns to build tops." thats would mean 1 chariot a turn for 50 turns lol in 3 cities.... and you will also need to hook horse as well so it will at least take u 15-20 turns just to get horse. So in 30 turns you will have to build 5 chariots a turn in ur cap which is IMPOSSIBLE LOL. or you can try and get 3 cities in 35 turns id say and you will need to make 3 chariots a turn in your city right off the plant which is also IMPOSSIBLE. LOL
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Post by pooky on Oct 19, 2006 21:53:14 GMT -5
it doesn't matter if the powergraph gives u away as a huge threat, no1 is going to attack some1 who has a bajillion power and crap for a score.
They can prepare for you as much as they want, but b4 engineering there is no good counter for a giant stack of chariots if you are building to be at all competitive for the point race.
So what if they know you have a huge stack of chariots? how do they stop you? they can't afford to put 12 spearmen in every city.
Also regarding the choke game, they aren't going to be able to choke you if you build right on the horse, that's why when you r deciding where to lay initial city, you first have to think to yourself, if I was a herd of wild horses waiting to join the greatest freaking army ever, where would I be? and build there, this is probly one of the most common newbie mistakes, laying city either in forest or on hills, HORSES DONT LIVE IN HILLS OR FORESTS!! You need to move to wear you would be if you were a horse and build there.
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Post by ironclad on Oct 19, 2006 22:53:28 GMT -5
its not possible anyways in 50 turns... IMPOSSIBLE
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Post by notagoodname on Oct 20, 2006 3:24:33 GMT -5
I haven't played a cton lately but here are some warlords shots of the spamming getting me to huge scores (huge for an ancient start anyway). (excuse the 2560x1600 resolution i play in ). The mass city and screwing the tech approach getting me over 2000 on a large map (large maps are harder to score on) members.optusnet.com.au/~lurch46/lotsacities2Getting over 2700 points on a small map doing some city spamming and wealth building - although not nearly as many cities as i would have on the bigger maps (smaller maps are easy to score on though). members.optusnet.com.au/~lurch46/lotsacities3Another city spam and research building to get over 2000 members.optusnet.com.au/~lurch46/lotsacities1So yeah spamming as many cities as you can while using research/wealth building works well for scoring My ultimate goal is to get over 3000 on a standard map (i have done it on a tiny map before but that's because the land points are worth more).
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Post by Necrominousss on Oct 20, 2006 4:22:18 GMT -5
I would bet the mass chariot stack would beat the city spam technique every time. I don't see either being a threat to my game plans as a percentage play.
But 150 chariots by turn 50? I would have to see a screen shot to believe that. Next time you do it would you take a picture so we can admire your play. You loose some credibility when making such a ridiculous claim. And many other things you say are just pure nonsense. Sounds more like you are just verbally testing a theory to me than telling something you actually did in a MP game.
I think I may experiment with an extremely modified version of this just to see how many chariots I can get by turn 100.
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Post by MMV on Oct 20, 2006 4:38:43 GMT -5
build giant stacks of chariots(120-150) and use them to kill people. Ur economy will be nuts but u don't need any tech after wheel anyway cuz Chariot is clearly the best unit eva. I remember being in a 4v4 ren teamer with pooky (he was on our side/next to me) and he did IN FACT make chariots and chariots and chariots and chariots and MORE chariots (did I mention chariots?) The only problem was, everyone else was making knights, eles, pikes, cav, and gunpowder units. And, true to his post, he kept producing war chariots in EVERY city on the way to his stated goal of 120-130. After being asked MANY times by his entire team to make "more effective units, he left the game (I think it was another pizza delivery/lost dorm key issue) Of course, no one actually GOT the pizza they are supposed to get when someone quits a game.
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Post by notagoodname on Oct 20, 2006 4:38:48 GMT -5
I would bet the mass chariot stack would beat the city spam technique every time. But a chariot stack lets you beat one player, scoring big lets you beat everyone.
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Post by Atomation on Oct 20, 2006 4:46:08 GMT -5
It can let you beat someone that you wouldn't normally beat by score. Like me for example. That's why noobs love it. Who cares if they lose to the rest of the people in the game, they are just hunting for 1 win to gain rank.
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Post by Tony on Oct 20, 2006 5:18:46 GMT -5
PS. Have you really had a stack of 150 chariots? And how many times have you killed everyone in this way? I believe this is the second bullnuts figure brought out this thread Snap, the maths is just totally impossible, why people lie i have no idea. How can you make 150 charriots in 50 turns ... ok here a chanllenge for you you show me turn by turn screenshot of you making 150 charriots in this period of time and ill paypal you over $300, with any start give yourself 5 pigs and a few hills if you want. 150 units our of your borders would have the most silly unit cost and worst yet unit support cost, without cottages you would be in the red making minus over 50 gold a turn, you stack would half in size by the time it even gets to the enermy. 2-3 units a turn would die, in 10 turns thats like 20-30 units less. Also when i was talking about fighting off 150 charriots, i didnt mean it has to be purely with spears, if you can make 150 charriots we have to assume your neighbour has 30 catapults 20 axes and about 20 spears, this is about the same price! Not to mention the extra units can build once he has seen the stack. This with roads could easily handle your stack. with practically zero loses. Leaving forests to stop double moves is more nonsense IMO. Anyway if you want $300, send me the screenshots and its yours! I dont think you have done this before yourself, you making it up as you go along. (lets see 10 turns to get a worker, 3 to build a pasture, 2 to road horse, and another 2 to road to city or river) Thats 17 turns, although it could be quicker if horse on river, but even so how are you gonna make 5 horses a turn after this? LOOL Why has this superly flawed (probally lying) tactic got soo much attention?
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