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Post by Avogadro on Jun 29, 2006 8:45:18 GMT -5
Whether it can be done in a ladder cton or not, it is fine teching indeed. I am impressed cause I coudllnt get near the target date.
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Post by Lestat on Jun 29, 2006 12:58:17 GMT -5
Do any 1 volounter can make math formula for that. EG 1. Mysticism = 5 turns 2. Meditation = 6 --||-- 3. Polynobcism = 7 --||-- 4. Priesthood = 3 --||-- 5. Toward misuc = ?? --||-- 6. Code of laws = ?? --||-- without oracle 7. civ service = ?? --||-- 8. Paper = ?? --||-- 9. Education = ?? --||-- 10-xx all manadory tech need for improvements and military.
Game length is 130 truns
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Post by Elledge on Jun 29, 2006 14:47:22 GMT -5
That's gonna depend on your commerce, buddy.
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Post by Lestat on Jun 29, 2006 14:57:29 GMT -5
Yup and commerce depend of pop growth and growth depend of imporvements and improvements depend of workers (less commerce-slaving) and also improvements depend of tech.... etc...
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Post by Bantams on Jun 29, 2006 15:53:49 GMT -5
welcome back lestat where you been
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 29, 2006 17:22:17 GMT -5
Hey notagoodname, Please copy your reply and place it in strategy forum. You shortcuts to liberalism is simply impressive. You come up with that on your own or got it in another civ board? Nope that's my own, i have pulled it off it in a few ctons too much to the amazement of other players
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 29, 2006 18:18:29 GMT -5
;D The man aims to please. NAGN, have you ever made cav AND rifles in a 130t anc cton? Please say no.
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 29, 2006 19:06:24 GMT -5
I havent really tried it too much churchill - once i get cav i tend to not bother with tech so much. If you pull off the liberalism in < 70 turns you can either use it to get gunpowder straight away (you will have all you need for it) or you can hold off getting anything with it and start getting a great artist in one of your cities and start researching philosophy and gunpowder the old fasion way. Then use the great artist to get nationalism (without masonary or machinery the great artist will give nationalism). Then finish liberlism and get military tradition with that. That will get you cavalry in <90 turns from ancient. Normally from there i just get the tech i missed earlier for score, but you could get rifling in the time left with a resonably good capital (once you have civ service and universities all techs are much easier to get). Of course if there is any real competition in a cton you are always better using great artists for a 200 point culuture bomb rather than tech. The only time you really want to do my liberalism trick is to show off to newbs (OMG! gunpowder in BC! Hax!! )
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 29, 2006 19:34:55 GMT -5
this great strat involves getting both henge and oracle - u just dont get em both in a regular game - espacialy when involving a phi civ - there s no phi indu civ Yep you need to be playing weaker players for it to work but the phi trait isn't actually that nessesary. With both stonehenge and the oracle you will still tend to get the prophets almost as fast as you need them. My strat only requires 2 prophets (cost ~160 GP points total for both of them - not unreasonable for a Ghandi to get in 60 turns if he has both henge and the oracle).
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 29, 2006 21:01:18 GMT -5
I havent really tried it too much churchill - once i get cav i tend to not bother with tech so much. OK. I did. My whole life I had been working towards achieve this pinnacle of achievment. Now I don't reallly have anything else to aim for. Success isn't all that it seems kiddies.
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Post by Avogadro on Jun 29, 2006 23:31:58 GMT -5
By turn 90 I usally have no problems getting an axeman or two Seriously go copy that thread, you guys full of knowledge, go share it with community.
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Post by tamijo on Jun 30, 2006 6:19:10 GMT -5
Do any 1 volounter can make math formula for that. I guess its not a question off turns, you would have to count the total number off "units" every tech requires, and then start counting the "expected" GNP in every turn from turn 1 - turn XX baced on the expected nr. worked tiles, with the expected aprovements, and then the expected sience %, libary sience specialists........... ect ect. would be a great job fore a math pro. if we got one
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Post by Elledge on Jun 30, 2006 6:43:02 GMT -5
That's not math, it's tedium, and if you did it one way everyone would chime in with "well, you should have built a farm instead of a cottage here" and "you should have researched this first" and "you should have built a settler sooner" and "you should have chopped instead of improving now." Anyway, I played a random casual islands game this morning and decided to screenshot to add to discussion here: This is a fair depiction of an average game for me. I didn't get any wonders, as you can see in the second shot; I tried for Oracle and got it taken from me halfway through, c'est la vie. Although I didn't take a picture of my land - sorry, forgot - the start was pretty average; my capital had 2 clams and a bronze and some grassland and I had room on my island for about 4 more decent cities, although my only other health resource was one deer, which hurt a lot. A gold or a gems in capital would speed the process up by hundreds of years. I also screwed up my GP timing badly and wasn't able to create a second scientist early enough to switch to pacifism, which meant that I couldn't get a third scientist early enough to get education, which meant that I had to waste 10 turns researching education by hand. So this is an average game at best and not close to the best you could achieve. Unfortunately some f*g retired and the game froze. So there's no secret sauce here. You ought to be able to hit liberalism by 0 AD if you try to almost every single game you play on a water map if you have a good civ (like Elizabeth, or perhaps Washington or China or India.) I'm sure that with optimal GP tricks and proper wonders like NAGN's example beeline you could do better by 500 years every game. I'm sure that some strategies would be fine with getting it later, like my Astronomy path which usually doesn't actually get Liberalism until about 500 AD. If you are far away from that mark (like 1000 AD or whatever) and this whole thing just boggles you, you will probably find that improving your worker control and tech path will improve your game a lot, because there's something wrong.
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 30, 2006 9:23:17 GMT -5
Just testing some other strats out and here's another good way to rush for liberalism and cavalry which is far more foolproof (special thanks to Elledge) 1) Reasearch Meditation (rel civs start with it) 2) Try to build stonehenge (doing this after you have your first 2 workers seems best, if not industrious best to skip this step) 3) Reasearch bronze working, polytheism and pottery 4) Get granaries in your cities 5) Reasearch mysticism, priesthood. 6) Try to build the oracle and get code of laws instantly with it (otherwise just research it (~10 turn setback if you miss)) 7) Start reasearching towards music (this order: writing->maths then alphabet->literature) 8) Try to build the great library (will give you lots of great scientists) or the national epic 9) Use your first great prophet to instantly get civil service (as long as you dont have masonary you can get civ service with a great prophet) 10) Ok here is where we branch a bit depending on circumstance. In your cap you will want to have another great person by this point. The great person can be either an artist, a prophet or a scientist - it doesn't matter as one way or the other they will all give you education. Do what you need to to get a second great person out (2 wonders will tend to do it even with a non-phi civ, although use caste or a library for a great scientist if you want) Scientist: If you got a scientist research philosophy and then use the scientist to get edu. Research music and then use the artist to get nationalism. Research liberalism and use it to get mil tradition . Prophet: If you got a prophet research music the old fasioned way. Then use the artist from music to hurry education. Then use the prophet to get philosophy (have to get philosophy after the aritst is used for edu or the artist will want to get nationalism). Research nationalism and then liberalism and then get mil tradition. Artist: If you get a great artist research music the old fasion way (now have 2 great artists). Use 1 great artist to get education. Research philosophy and use the other great artist to get nationalism. Research lib and get mil tradition. If you want lib even faster skip the nationalism part in my above examples (i just really like getting cavalry in ancient ctons you see ) A phi civ is also unnessesary, industrous for the wonder building and religious for the no anarchy is best (rel saves you ~5 turns by the end of the game because of anarchy). So obviously Ghandi is my pick here. If you didnt get the oracle or stonehenge you are kind of screwed by civil service, make sure you get at least one of those.
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Post by smatt834 on Jul 1, 2006 10:09:09 GMT -5
The teching strategy leaves you with no cats. If you tried to pull it in a cton and you had a good player for a neighbor you would be dead, like tommy said. Lets see some pics of people ACTUALLY GETTING liberalism by these dates. I don't think getting liberalism in the 120 turn ctons is as easy as people make it sound. I've played enough of them and from experience, at most only in half of them does someone get liberalism. On an island all by yourself I think the tech paths mentioned are good ideas.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 1, 2006 11:12:49 GMT -5
Mine doesn't leave you with no cats if you spend 2 turns researching construction, or you can spend 3 or 4 researching feudalism
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Post by smatt834 on Jul 1, 2006 12:22:53 GMT -5
i don't know how people could go without feudalism. I would think the faster workers and longbows would be a necessary component in any game where someone was trying to get to liberalism without dying halfway thru education.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 1, 2006 13:56:48 GMT -5
I don't know; I haven't played many ctons for awhile (and I never played many - I've probably been in 25 in my life), so maybe this has changed, but in my experience people are just not that much of a threat. Everyone knows that past the first 20 or 30 turns it's more trouble than it's worth to eliminate an average neighbor, and for the most part they play a pacifist game.
Obviously people are going to make little probes and pokes all game at you, and you need the military might to fend these off and show strength. But out of maybe 25, I've been attacked in force (pre-last-ten-turns) by a neighbor in maybe...2 of them. And this is from the perspective of someone who is leading in score most games from turn 40 onward, so you'd think everyone would be gunning for me.
I've actually needed catapults to defend myself in maybe a fifth of the ctons I play.
I don't know. Maybe the players I played with suck (I do think that the average cton player is below the average teamer player in quality), or maybe I got lucky, or maybe things have changed in the past month or two.
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Post by churchill1 on Jul 1, 2006 17:59:35 GMT -5
4) Get granaries in your cities Thanks NAGN. I would never have thought of that. Getting the great library without marble can be a bit of a challenge. I guess you might already have civil service by this time. I'm not a huge henge fan, co i'd rather be making workers and settlers in those early stages, so i don't get a great prophet often. oh well, haven't played many ctons lately either, perhaps I need to change my start, esp if everyone is gonna be getting cavs.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 1, 2006 22:04:33 GMT -5
I tried NAGN's method twice today, and I felt ambivalent. The first time I got Stonehenge, but not Oracle. Honestly, I feel it's very unlikely you'll get Oracle if you follow NAGN's tech path as stated and get priesthood as late, because there's always some guy that beelines straight for Oracle and chops it out immediately.
I found that at that point with an average capital I had a difficult time of it. The time spent building Stonehenge was time that I usually spent building a library in my capital, and it showed because I had crapola beaker production and not much expansion to show for it. Code of Laws took about 15 turns, all told, and it might have been longer if I hadn't had a nice spot with a gold mine to settle my second city. It did coincide with my first GP creation though, so I got CS.
At that point though things started looking grimmer, because my research was still Not Good (TM). It took me too long to get to music and too long to get paper and the result was liberalism slower than I would get it by hand with my usual method.
The second game went better. I ignored Stonehenge and got Oracle ASAP (I barely managed to get Code of Laws with it.) With the time I had to waste between then and my prophet, I took worker techs (I struggled to get everything important researched in time last game), Mathematics, and started building toward music. Things went very much more in my favor with the extra time to devote to dropping cottages and expanding. I got the Great Library after my first prophet and that really really helped generating another within a reasonable interval. I got Liberalism around 200 BC, which is quite strong, and I had more expansion than I would have with my usual method, albeit much less beaker production.
So if you're trying it, I'd just ignore Stonehenge if I were you. It takes away time and hammers that really make a big difference, in my opinion.
Of course, it could be the fact that the last time I got Stonehenge or Oracle in a game was sometime last December. I am not a wonder sort of person and maybe I just screwed it all up ;D
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