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Post by whiplash on May 10, 2006 15:57:42 GMT -5
Part of the challenge in C3C team games is to figure out what's going on for the whole map without it being displayed right at your face.
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Post by donaldkipper on May 10, 2006 16:44:47 GMT -5
interesting
i think team games with all good players are the pinnacle for Civ 4
however, i fully understand the points being made here
there is big difference between someone being a bad or new player and someone who refues to co-operate/listen to his team
the former is acceptable and a new player who pays attention can both learn a lot and be of great value to his team, while even an experienced player who does not play for the team can be a liability
where there are multiple good players, i would suggest the teams nominate a captain and follow that players lead whether they agree or not
in time, good captians will become known (the ones that always seem to win)
my advice....your next team game, pick a captain and follow what that one person says and play for the team
the whole team working together towards a less than optimal end will do better than a fragemented team arguing the best route to take
a team cohesively working towards an optimal end will be hard to beat - and this is where the captain comes in
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Post by churchill1 on May 10, 2006 16:48:47 GMT -5
brilliant stuff longhorn. well said. "somehow we need to get back to enjoying this game and just having fun." i wonder how some ppl are actually enjoying civ the way they act. hey it's just a game guys. and the peeps u mention are really good guys. mookie, lot of ppl say about the resources thing in an ancient cton. i don't agree tbh. it is very very rare that u wouldnt have any metal say 5 tiles from ur cap (think some won't agree here, but this is my experience). in fact more often than not you will have some metal in ur cap. if i was sad i would test it in wordbuilder or something. but what i am saying is it is not so huge a deal imo. inland sea is a very fair map. and in a short style cton, really it is important to be close. as for wheel ( but especially hub) i think it is not such a good idea to attack ur neighbour (only real reason to attack is to take their land or stop them from attacking u). it's a waste of ur production. instead u should concetrate on building ur civ. and this my friends is a classical buildathon. lakes or fantasy realm is ok (fighting is pretty likely). but this can be hideously unfair, in thatsomeone may have 2 neighbours and another have 4. well i am pretty happy on ancient. but i like long ones that stretch right into industrial era and beyond. having said that i would be up for some later starts. i've done a few reni ones. may be u could host one mookie . "Perhaps, along with Tommy's excellent ancient strategy guide he posted to the forums, some of the more experience Ren Teamer players should write a few articles?" when u say tommy's strat guide, do u mean his post on apolyton? yeah, there's some brilliant stuff there. it's not solely directed towards ladder though. and if he means 20catas on every front city, that's a big ask he also says use all ur land. well when it comes to cton, building safe is my priority. tbh i keep my defenses pretty low and scout to the max. i like to just know long time in advance what is coming for me. so i get units on those forested hilltops (a longbow especially is nigh on impossible to shift). hehe what am i talking about? questioning tommy. anyway this is completely off point. as for articles on reni teamers (and anything really) this is a great idea. fried's then is so inactive and it is a real shame. imo this should be one of the most active sections of the forums. i love talking strategy and tactics and picking up tips and stuff. mookie u wrote a few excellent articles for the RaY website. May be u could take out the good stuff and post them here .
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Post by donaldkipper on May 10, 2006 16:57:53 GMT -5
but what i am saying is it is not so huge a deal imo i beg to differ if a good player has a bronze in his cap and you dont, you are dead if the good player decides to kill you - even if you are the greatest player ever
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Post by knupp on May 10, 2006 17:35:52 GMT -5
I completely agree with you here. A player who does not cooperate with his team his a lot different than a noob who will. As long as a noob (lol I'm so sick of this word) is willing to listen and take advice from his teammates then his teammates should be willing to help him (when time is available of course). i beg to differ if a good player has a bronze in his cap and you dont, you are dead if the good player decides to kill you - even if you are the greatest player ever If you are the greatest player ever chances are you will be able to expand quick enough to build your 2nd or maybe 3rd city in order to grab a resource you need before the threat is big enough to kill you. If however no resources are near then you are dead.
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Post by MookieNJ on May 10, 2006 18:39:19 GMT -5
If you are the greatest player ever chances are you will be able to expand quick enough to build your 2nd or maybe 3rd city in order to grab a resource you need before the threat is big enough to kill you. If however no resources are near then you are dead. If you invest all of your production into building workers and settlers in order to build a second, and maybe third city, to hook up strategic resources, then when your neighbor with horses comes knocking with 6 chariots you are dead. When your neighbor with bronze comes with 3 axemen, cuts your roads to your new resource, and chokes you, then you are pretty much screwed until construction and/or feudalism. What fun is that? Give me something more balanced please. That is why I like playing the later eras.
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Post by knupp on May 10, 2006 18:43:07 GMT -5
If you are the greatest player ever chances are you will be able to expand quick enough to build your 2nd or maybe 3rd city in order to grab a resource you need before the threat is big enough to kill you. If however no resources are near then you are dead. If you invest all of your production into building workers and settlers in order to build a second, and maybe third city, to hook up strategic resources, then when your neighbor with horses comes knocking with 6 chariots you are dead. When your neighbor with bronze comes with 3 axemen, cuts your roads to your new resource, and chokes you, then you are pretty much screwed until construction and/or feudalism. What fun is that? Give me something more balanced please. That is why I like playing the later eras. I know what you mean. I tend to stay away from ancient games for exactly this reason. If your opponent starts off with resources and you don't then you are screwed. I'm just saying the "best player ever" might be able to fend off the attack, but not if they were playing somebody good. The CTONs I've played though have almost no rushes. Everybody just builds until 20 turns left and then sledgehammers one of their neighbors.
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Post by Necrominousss on May 10, 2006 21:15:05 GMT -5
Wow, these are some mighty bad :oss neighbors you got. He's going to have 3 axeman and 6 chariots before you can get your second city planted. Did you get his name? I want him to write the strategy guide instead of tommy.
Please. I've heard someone say at one time or another that if you don't have such and such resource in your cap radius your dead for every era in the game.
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Post by churchill1 on May 10, 2006 21:30:49 GMT -5
the only way to get a superdooper quick stack is this:
either1: u land on copper
or2: u pick up a lot of money from tribal huts and upgrade ur warriors ( i once picked up over 300 gold and was able to upgrade 6 warriors)
even so on the above occasion by the time i got my stack to the enemy he had a second city. needless to say both cities fell pretty quickly ^^.
anyways early rush isnt always so profitable. (war chariots absolutely is and case above is). sometimes it can hurt ur growth.
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Post by Elledge on May 10, 2006 21:58:50 GMT -5
It's a matter of travel distance. Let me simplify the situation to just bronze and axemen, and let's see how things pan out for neighbors who get different resource positions.
Compare the following:
Case A: Player has copper in his capital (best case, admittedly rare). Case B: Player has copper in his capital's fat cross. Case C: Player has copper in his second city.
Suppose that both opponents start with mining and research BW immediately (you might be even further behind, if you don't start with mining, but this is fastest possible) and build a worker, so that the worker comes out right about when BW finishes. Call the conclusion of BW time 0.
Case A can now start chopping axemen immediately. His first axe will probably come out at about turn 4 and start heading toward the enemy (supposing it's a duel map, or he scouted out a neighbor, or he has other map knowledge.)
Case B can't start yet. He needs a hookup. That means about 5 turns for Wheel research while the worker builds a mine. After the mine, it'll take at least 4 turns to hook up 2 road pieces before the worker can chop an axeman. Maybe with some luck, the city grew one slot in the meantime, so then the axeman takes a turn less with chopping assistance and axeman is produced at 5+4+3 = turn 12.
That means that the guy with copper in his capital got an 8-turn axeman head start. Unless it's a real small map, that's probably not enough to get to his copper and cut it, or stop his worker. It's definitely enough to sit in his forests and get another axeman or two stuck in his land, to hobble his production and give him all sorts of grief. Huge pain in the ass, but not quite good game, especially if our friend is agg.
Case C is f**ked, so hard. He is totally f**ked. He is f**ked up the ass. He needs a second settler to get to his copper. The very fastest he can get that is probably chopping it immediately. A worker-worker-settler build will probably be better for the long term, but I'm willing to bet it would be three or four turns slower in terms of "first axeman," and unless he can establish military superiority a smart opponent will shut down his workers (it's much harder to get out and ninja-chop a forest, now that chops take an extra turn.)
So Case C guy chops his settler. Now, with the forest chop nerf, it's pretty painful; going to be about 8 turns just to get that settler out, chopping away at it. Then let's say 3 turns to get the second city planted. He's forced to plant on the copper, or he is going to get instagibbed. So now send his worker over, chop an axeman; it's going to be maybe 5 turns since this is a worthless size 1 city which might or might not be in a good spot. That's 8+3+5 = turn 16 when he gets his first axeman out, on his second city.
That means the first guy got a 12 turn head start. On a small, crowded map, he might already have lost his capital at this rate if he got unlucky. Suppose that the other guy's axeman is just arriving. Now what? It's going to be half a dozen more worker turns before he can hook up his capital to copper, unless he's got a river. Meanwhile, he's got an axeman (soon several axemen) running around in his land stopping his chopper workers, his second city is small and unworked and can build like about an axeman every ten turns, and his capital is probably still undefended.
That's it. He's done. Guess he should have played a larger map.
Realistically here is what happens. Most people are Case B people. The Case C people are forced into a ridiculous growth path, trying to defend multiple targets (even worse if he didn't put his second city on top of the copper, which nobody does because it's so sadly wasteful of production) against another guy who has more flexibility, a turn advantage, and the initiative. At least they didn't get instagibbed by a Case A.
Just a quick analysis. Make of it what you will.
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Post by Elledge on May 10, 2006 22:04:56 GMT -5
As for teaching newer players the basics of teamers, as long as they have a will to listen and adapt their game to new tactics, they will be fine. Is it worth even bothering with someone that doesn't fit that description? I know I don't much want to play with someone that doesn't listen or adapt on my team, and I don't give a nuts how experienced they are. A strategy guide is a suggestion, but how many people like that do you think would have the initiative to take time out of game and read a guide? I mean, teamers are not really complicated to learn at a basic level. Someone else makes the tech decisions for you, someone else is directing general strategy. If you are aware, a good builder, and you understand how to use units properly (this is the tough point I suspect for a lot of people, as it was for me, but only experience can cure it), then boom, you will get used to teamers real quick. If a person is so helpless that they can't adapt to that after a few games, I really don't think a guide is going to help. Either they just have zero talent for the game, or it's a personality issue.
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Post by MookieNJ on May 10, 2006 23:30:05 GMT -5
Wow, these are some mighty bad :oss neighbors you got. He's going to have 3 axeman and 6 chariots before you can get your second city planted. Did you get his name? I want him to write the strategy guide instead of tommy. Please. I've heard someone say at one time or another that if you don't have such and such resource in your cap radius your dead for every era in the game. Read more carefully before you knock my point and bsaically call me a slow. If ONE of your neighbors has horse, he can get out a decent number of chariots pretty quickly. If ONE of your neighbors has bronze, he can get out a decent number of axes pretty quick. In either case, if you have NO RESOURCES AT ALL, it's really hard to fight off EITHER a stack of 6 chariots or 3 axemen. A chop, some slavery, and some good ol' production can get out either of these stacks relatively quickly. If you are forced to spend time building warriors and archers to fight off an early choke, rather than rush a worker and settler to get a second city up, you only give your neighbors MORE TIME to build up to attack you. In my last ancient game I was being choked by quechas. The nearest copper was on the top of the map in my 40% cultural expansion. After I fought off the choke with warriors, I built a worker, sent him to hook up my copper, only to find 4 chariots on my border. Never even completed the mine, as it was on a lovely tundra square, requiring an extra turn to finish. Not sure exactly what I can do in that case.
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Post by Necrominousss on May 10, 2006 23:57:40 GMT -5
Hmm, Elledge having us anwer multiple choice questions now. Let's see.... I'll take B. Is that right?
You get f**ked good but you don't get f**ked to hard. That's the way I like it, a nice f**king
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Post by tommynt on May 11, 2006 1:38:30 GMT -5
I d say forget most of the players from other sites as good palyers - I played some pbms with the most active guys there in civ3 and everytime it was just to easy to win - I once subbed a guy and could not believe what i saw - bad city placement unworked land, no roads, units not on front, no micro of city tiles - ok maybe this wasnt one of the "good guys". And their "god" of game strategy thinks settler 1. can often be a good way to start game.
As for the no res die fast question espacilly in ctons - hm on a standard inland sea map i can hardly imagine a good player dying fast - on other hand some of the nwer players .. last cton i killed 1 with 1. warrior and the guy on other side with 2 axe (unpromoted and just sent out of boredom surly not to kill).
So maybe dying fast depends not only on your land but also on your skillz - but after patch it s for sure harder to get resources out of cap range and on smaller maps res in cap or not can decide games.
Oh well my last some games were fun so i m a bit over this brainless guys problem - but again i saw (too late) a teammate nonindu and without stone building pyras instead his teammate helping who was involved in heavy fights.
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Post by zerza on May 11, 2006 10:44:58 GMT -5
You call me a newb ? YOU HAHAAHA well i better expletive deleted my post, but yea you have the skill right ? No Germ i said that in ladder are :noobs, experts no matter. Ladder is league of 500 registered players German.. noob, experts no matter. If those teamer noobs think that they are ladder im out of here. Not one for being articulate are you? I've read your post 3 times and I still have no clue what you are saying.
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Post by Lestat on May 11, 2006 10:52:24 GMT -5
No you dont reading , you just spaming as well.
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Post by Lestat on May 11, 2006 11:37:48 GMT -5
And back to point. Truth is that 2 or 3 clans playing mixed those teamers. Why Bc rank of course. If u look caerfuly always same peps are in top 10-20. Ask Ironclad about hes experience in those teamers about avoiding playing with him bc rank 1 was afraid to lose it. You guys just play your game but dont post topic with name like above "BRAINLESS". We were starting temaer games with name "Ladder teamer NOOBS" wot is oposite of "LADDER TEAMERS NO NOOBS". I lost many teamers game bc other players mistakes and never blame any one for that or put it in public. And 1 more think. If those TOP 10's dont playing ctons , 1v1 and of course teamers in every era i dont have rescpect for their rank, hope Im not alone.
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Post by Bantams on May 11, 2006 12:37:42 GMT -5
And back to point. Truth is that 2 or 3 clans playing mixed those teamers. Why Bc rank of course. If u look caerfuly always same peps are in top 10-20. Ask Ironclad about hes experience in those teamers about avoiding playing with him bc rank 1 was afraid to lose it. You guys just play your game but dont post topic with name like above "BRAINLESS". We were starting temaer games with name "Ladder teamer NOOBS" wot is oposite of "LADDER TEAMERS NO NOOBS". I lost many teamers game bc other players mistakes and never blame any one for that or put it in public. And 1 more think. If those TOP 10's dont playing ctons , 1v1 and of course teamers in every era i dont have rescpect for their rank, hope Im not alone. I Agree 100% with you Lestat top 10 players always play teamers together thats why they are always in the top 10 i guess :-*and thats for you Tommy
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Post by tommynt on May 11, 2006 12:51:59 GMT -5
Lestat u have just no clue - if u have no clue why dont u just go home?
the actual top ten are the actual best and most active palyers - these guys play mainly together because they r the only playing at all
and le i saw u plaiyng in some teamers some time ago - u r skill was just a bit above noob skill and u r teamplay fits well into this thread - maybe u improved till then, i dont know
- it dont matter if u respect em or not no1 cares about that anyway
bc of rank my ass - u really have no clue another issue why other people get invited and u arent is because people prefer playing with guys they like
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Post by churchill1 on May 11, 2006 12:59:22 GMT -5
heh. tommy that was cold. there is so many bad vibes floating around these forums. how sad. i didn't play civ3 but i understand many enmities strecth back to that! get a life guys! about the rank. well i think that at least to some extent it is true that ppl are there because they only play each other. but i definitely wouldn't want to take this point too far. but i know for sure that there are some pretty new ppl in top 20, who are definitely not the best yet, but they are there because they only play the reni teamers and gain rank from topped ranked players who play them. of course the majority of these top players are good, in some case very good (much better than me ). but look at avrieeee for example, well he rarely even makes top 50, yet look at his win% and no. of games played and i know for sure he is very good. and tommy is right: u would have to be pretty rubbish to die so early. but i think u can be pretty good and have ur game wrecked early, which is as good as dying.
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