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Post by Tony on May 5, 2006 22:34:29 GMT -5
Just wanted to get other peoples thoughts on this.
For me there is no doubt that CIV is becoming boring faster as everyone is pretty much playing the same. A small example of this is, when i first started playing LOTS of players would build worker, followed by settler, then everyone decided you need 2 workers so it became wroker chop worker chop (another worker) or settler, with the chop thing being nerfed now everyone builds worker, work bonus and get another worker out then settler. This is making game playing routine, do this, do that etc.
Im not stupid enough to think because of this every player is totally the same, but getting too similar IMO, im not talking in terms of ability, im talking in terms of what they build and how they play. CIV like any other game is most fun when you are experimenting new things. Try this...does it work? If not try that until you have a formula that works for you.
Also there is so much information given about what your enermy/ally is doing, for example what civic they go into, why on earth does everyone have to know this?
I can understand those that say its important to coordinate attacks, but i just feel we are losing something sooo much more in the process...CIV longevity.
Just wondering if anyone else shares my thoughts?
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Post by Necrominousss on May 5, 2006 23:30:19 GMT -5
I don't know what everyone else does but getting a few workers out as soon as possible seems like the only wise course of action.
The game does seem slightly too transparent.
I'm not nearly as addicted to CIV as I used to be to the games predecessors. Not sure if I've changed or the games changed. I still enjoy playing quite a bit so it can't be all bad.
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Post by weaksauce on May 6, 2006 0:16:22 GMT -5
i agree tony. but optimizing your resources often comes down to routine. it can be different if you start on a coast w/ fish/clam tho, not much tho.
this game was not well thought out in some regards with multiplayer gaming. seeing enemy civics, the techs they've researched in foreign diplomacy, seeing all the enemy leaders of a team, even tho you only encounter culture from 1 enemy player... it's really bad... and pretty much lacks any thought about multiplayer gaming.
but i think the biggest problem of this game being 'routine' stems from lack of maps. i know some people are hot on doing mods or trying to fix the game up some how. But i think any rational person who understands the multiplayer team games and ctons of civ4 knows the game needs new maps just as much... probably even more so than any mod...
/weak
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Post by loki1023 on May 6, 2006 0:50:21 GMT -5
I have to agree with weaksauce on this mods and maps will help the most I really don't see an issue with seeing the moves of your allies though. I plan to start collecting them on my site for players to download I'll likely package them in self installers for easy installation along with other apps I feel are usefull for MP play with civ. btw feel free to list any maps / mods you would like me to package and list for easy download please remember to give me a link to the files though
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Post by tommynt on May 6, 2006 0:56:43 GMT -5
I asked same question 2 weeks after civ4 came out - I got many replies like the good players ll allways find new ways or so - i for myself dont think i can improve my own game - at least in ancient and ren starts - all I and some other experienced players might be doing now is improve teamplay - advice newbees - for that the seeing of teammates is very important -
In fact I think it helped to even up skillz at high levels - but it s a + for the game experience so i cant really vote
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Post by Ellestar on May 6, 2006 1:04:51 GMT -5
Well, there were about the same questions asked about Starcraft when replays were added in one of the patches. If everyone can copy gosu's tactics then game will die becuase everyone will play the same way? Actually, no. Better players do the same things better because they understand it better etc. A simple copying doesn't make a new player as strong as a veteran. That is, simple things are easy to copy, but it's just basics everyone should know anyway. Will you want to play a teamer with someone who'll start to make a library from turn 1 in capital while on front? I guess no. Now, how you play in a hard situations where you need to make a strategic choices is what makes a better player actually better than others. Some "secret knowledge" doesn't define a better player, it's how you use that knowledge.
P.S. Starcraft is still here and it's the oldest cybersport game that is still very popular (especially in Korea).
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Post by tommynt on May 6, 2006 1:06:30 GMT -5
oh ya and some new map a bit likt tbf - just with some water maybe d be really great - i m so tired to play maps like pang or inland sea where the back guys (and thats allways me) is 40 tiles away from front and u cant do nothing as see him dying
also I think the game concept (espacilly with this soo important cap due to free bakers and buerocrazy and score system) got this 1 big problem that u cant come back from a teamamte loss. loosing a player in a 7-7 should not decede game - but it does - there no way to come back in score, there s no way to keep in teching, there s just no way as try to kill yourself - but attacking is so much harder as defend at least after some time. Not sure if u can mod the scoring concept - but in teamer u need imo a scoring concept where teching count only as a teamscore not as a player score - whole team techs not 1 player. in civ3 u could just win a 3 vs 4 on score - it was hard but possible - many people complain about fast concedes or no new players in team games - but as it is imposible (in more then 95%) to come back from a teammate loss u should not wonder
maybe i should just accept that civ4 is no mp game and also not designed to work as a teamer
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Post by ironclad on May 6, 2006 1:42:58 GMT -5
my idea was to show all land dark or shadowed that u cant see with ur own units..... except you can see all ur allies units like when stealing maps in civ3 u could see all ur enemy units kinda like that
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Post by notagoodname on May 6, 2006 2:17:06 GMT -5
Playing an inland sea ren teamer with ranked ladder players shows this phenomina as everyone always follows the standard build and tech formula (gun->nat->mil trad). I think it makes the game more fun that everyone knows more or less what they are doing. The game now comes down to on the spot thinking rather than playing out a pre-game formula.
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Post by Bantams on May 6, 2006 2:18:00 GMT -5
oh ya and some new map a bit likt tbf - just with some water maybe d be really great - i m so tired to play maps like pang or inland sea where the back guys (and thats allways me) is 40 tiles away from front and u cant do nothing as see him dying also I think the game concept (espacilly with this soo important cap due to free bakers and buerocrazy and score system) got this 1 big problem that u cant come back from a teamamte loss. loosing a player in a 7-7 should not decede game - but it does - there no way to come back in score, there s no way to keep in teching, there s just no way as try to kill yourself - but attacking is so much harder as defend at least after some time. Not sure if u can mod the scoring concept - but in teamer u need imo a scoring concept where teching count only as a teamscore not as a player score - whole team techs not 1 player. in civ3 u could just win a 3 vs 4 on score - it was hard but possible - many people complain about fast concedes or no new players in team games - but as it is imposible (in more then 95%) to come back from a teammate loss u should not wonder maybe i should just accept that civ4 is no mp game and also not designed to work as a teamer you seem to manage quite well playing teamers 24/7 so whats the problem?
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Post by Ellestar on May 6, 2006 2:36:39 GMT -5
Playing an inland sea ren teamer with ranked ladder players shows this phenomina as everyone always follows the standard build and tech formula (gun->nat->mil trad). I think it makes the game more fun that everyone knows more or less what they are doing. The game now comes down to on the spot thinking rather than playing out a pre-game formula. Well, that happens because game is not balanced for that kind of multiplayer we're playing. There aren't a lot of effective options to pick from. Also, i guess tech choices should have been different if teching was faster in Ren.
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Post by venceslas on May 6, 2006 2:48:00 GMT -5
Well, at the CCC, it seems to me they are three or four different tech path used. Several teams have some specific tech path.
chris.
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Post by MookieNJ on May 6, 2006 3:17:30 GMT -5
When I first started playing ren teamers, it was a race to liberalism to take nationalism for free. Then it was gunpowder first, unless you wanted to go nationalism first to block the other team from getting the Taj Mahal. Once in a while you'll see a quick astro for a really early boat drop. Even more rarely will a team try to get early rifles. In any event, while there is more than one tech path you can follow, you just run the risk of not having cavalry while the other team does.
I agree 100% with this. I think the problem though, is that in a teamer, you really need to get a grasp on the basics before you can experiment and find a formula that works for you. Especially so in a ren (or any other advanced era) teamer -- most everyone played a lot of ancient in single player, ctons, etc.
As far as being able to watch what your teammates are doing, I think this is a good thing. The combination of observing good players and having good players comment on your gameplay is one of the best ways to learn the basics and improve.
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Post by Tony on May 6, 2006 11:50:33 GMT -5
Well there are very few ladder games being played, and there must be a reason for this. No matter what anyone says this IS CIV's golden age.
For me there are a number of reasons and bugs and glitches is right at the bottom, as admins have said 100s of times, people but up with bugs in C3C. I belive one of the reasons is how quickly the game becomes routine, and this is partly due to the game itself and partly due to teamers showing people how to play IMO.
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Post by GERMANIA on May 6, 2006 12:47:09 GMT -5
Well for my kind its more the problem of the skill from each player, we have to less good players and to many Newb's ( those who don't really know what to do, and just look what they gone do next move) witch is hard to get a good game, and it is much more frustrating then in PTW ore C3C days, at least wasn't able to see what a BS the newb is doing... but in this day you are getting so pisst about those because you tell them all what to do and why and they still don't do it ore forget that after a few turns...
Well the future of CIV 4 will be not in MP for sure, this will be a SP game in the future and i doubt that warlord will help !
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Post by Avogadro on May 7, 2006 8:42:48 GMT -5
What helped in the C3C golden age were all the numerous mp articles foudn on the forum. I remember being a noob and thinking "Eureka".
I'd love to see some of you better players taking the time to write up some good articles and also spamming newbies towards the forum so that they can improve their MP play.
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Post by tommynt on May 7, 2006 10:00:17 GMT -5
avo there are so few newbies really trying to improve - people seem o have much bigger egos - I started doing what u suggested but only reply was some dude spaming my thread being backed up by moderator
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Post by ironclad on May 7, 2006 13:05:47 GMT -5
RaY for the win!
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Post by zzZhenon on May 7, 2006 17:01:14 GMT -5
What helped in the C3C golden age were all the numerous mp articles foudn on the forum. I remember being a noob and thinking "Eureka". I'd love to see some of you better players taking the time to write up some good articles and also spamming newbies towards the forum so that they can improve their MP play. I think it's the maps.... Inland Sea is just so damned boring. Why does everyone play it? Fair-shmair, play Pangaea and get what the RNG gives you.... or even better -- play a Balanced map.
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Post by Tony on May 7, 2006 17:41:35 GMT -5
Anyone that i play with regularly will tell you how much i hate inlandsea. But as is the nature of the game, ctons IMO have to be played with inland-sea or a map thats similar, like wheel, hub, etc. Im not sure if you were on the ladder when the game first came out, about 6 months ago, but nearly ALL games were played on pangea or Balanced, but cuz the game is so resource dependant, and starts are soo close, its was a nightmare IMO. Belive me i LOVE resource dependant games/situations, expanding to resources is a skill, but in too many cases the above maps get you in a hopless situation, almost like rolling dice. Before the first patch you would see horses with wheel, it was charriot rush nearly every game, or axes all over you land like a rash, and if you in the middle it only takes 1-2 units from a few civs and you are faced with the most boring games in histroy. Expanding to a resource is totally out of the question in too many situations, and if you do you so far behind its hardly worth playing. There is another thread that talks about we need new maps, but i dont think maps are the answer, and i dont see how new maps would make the game more enjoyable. Its the game mechanics that need changing, maybe this can be done with a mod, or maybe im just gonna have to wait patiently for CIV5, and hopfully that is more like the civ we know and love. (Sure i wanted a totally diffrent game, but i still wanted civ not a combination of all the other strategy games mixed together, hoping it will work). Opps got side tracked
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