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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 28, 2006 13:42:18 GMT -5
Yes I agree totally that we need to remain in the GS CIV lobby, but Hamachi in no way limits us from doing that. Hamachi is simply a better way to do Direct IP and nothing else. Yes Loki has done a fine job of making a games list and a Hamachi lobby if you chose to use them fine but they are not required to start Hamachi Direct IP games in the Civ4 lobby. As to the concern that this will limit games, this whole discussion was started to see if there's support for using Hamachi as a standard operating procedure for ladder games. If we do go ahead with this policy I would expect that a critical mass of ladder players would follow suit and use it, we would then have a "snowball" effect and then 99% of the ladder would use it. This has basically already happened in the smaller French Civ.fr league, so it's far from out of the question to happen at C4P. I don't think there's any reason to be afraid of using Hamachi, it a simple and free program that is easier to setup than YIM is and most of us have managed that And ofcourse there is no other real solution to the connection problem many people are having, it's not a total solution and won't solve people with sub-standard computers or slow connections but it will help 97% of peoples firewall/router/NAT issues, and that is a good thing. CS
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Post by Avogadro on Apr 28, 2006 14:37:04 GMT -5
You and Loki convinced me, I'm downloading hamachi. If it makes for better running games I feel the whole ladder community could greatly benefit from such a tool
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Post by venceslas on Apr 28, 2006 16:07:56 GMT -5
It's possible to have in the same game, players with Hamachi and others without Hamachi. When two players are blocking each other, Hamachi often resolve the trouble if both players launch hamachi. It's necessary(from my experience) to launch Hamachi before civ.
chris.
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Post by alice on Apr 28, 2006 16:15:31 GMT -5
too hard to get a game already this will make it harder imo i will contine to try to play for now , but as soon as the warlords comes out i will not likely ever play this broken ass game again,
have i got my 50 $ worth, sure.
am i a satisfyed customer, no
i wish that installing the patch that breaks the game was not manditory. The patch should be optional so that the 2nd patch could be played, as i feel it was a bit more stable and the problem of not being able to reconnect to all players in a reload was not such a issue, with the current patch i have numerous scraps on accout of players who could once connect to eachother durring launch, but then cannot connect even fron the lobby in a reload.
though hamachi may improve this. i think it will make games more exclusive and lessen membership
hopefully warlord will be ready to play mp then we can all quit this game and let it die
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Post by Gogf on Apr 28, 2006 16:31:22 GMT -5
No, I am fundamentally opposed to this on a number of levels.
1. From my experience Hamachi works no better than Civ4. I was involved in one test game, which crashed upon entry, with about three people getting in. We tried once more, with no increased level of success. 2. I shouldn't need to bother with this to play a game of Civ4. I rarely have connection problems, and when I do they can usually be solved by the player in question rebooting. Sure, there can be problems from time to time, but to be honest I think the situation is exaggerated by a few very vocal users that seem to constantly have problems. 3. While I applaud the fact the Loki has been working on the solution to a perceived problem, I personally find the constant advertisements extremely irritating. Almost every thread in the General forum has a link to the "Hamachi C4 MP Lobby," or whatever the proper name is. It's a nice program to have when there may be a problem, but this type of shameless advertising seems rather pointless to me.
It's no necessary, and it will be a great deal of hassle for very little benefit.
From what I can tell, Hamachi allows people to get into a direct IP staging room without many problems. I have never had a problem getting players into a direct IP staging room, except for once during a test of Hamachi. Elledge could not connect to another player, and after spending nearly half an hour fiddling with a so-call "magic option" we either decided to launch anyway or managed to fix the problem (I don't remember exactly what the outcome was).
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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 28, 2006 17:14:33 GMT -5
Well for some reason Elledge seems to be the exception to the rules, so I would hesitate to judge the software based on one bad test, I've had serveral test Hamachi games with no problems.
most people will fall into the 97% category not the 3% that we have trouble with.
CS
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Post by Elledge on Apr 28, 2006 17:35:18 GMT -5
I do seem to have pretty bad luck with the connection stuff! I have no idea what to attribute it to.
The weird thing is that the test worked the first time. Hamachi had no yellow dots, everyone connected, but the game froze for some reason - I think the host dropped immediately on launch. We had to reload, I think we all reconnected to Hamachi and that was when me and some other guy had connection problems to each other. In the end I think I just left.
I don't think I've ever once seen anyone have problems get into a direct IP room. I haven't played any direct IP games since patch - is it as bad with them as it is with Gamespy?
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Post by Magzi on Apr 28, 2006 17:52:57 GMT -5
I still don't like the idea of having to use this to run a game.
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Post by loki1023 on Apr 28, 2006 18:46:45 GMT -5
It's possible to have in the same game, players with Hamachi and others without Hamachi. When two players are blocking each other, Hamachi often resolve the trouble if both players launch hamachi. It's necessary(from my experience) to launch Hamachi before civ. chris. I don't know how that would even be possiable as the players not using hamachi would be trying to comunicate to a 5.xxx.xxx.xxx range ip that hamachi has is not accessiable via the internet. too hard to get a game already this will make it harder imo i will contine to try to play for now , but as soon as the warlords comes out i will not likely ever play this broken ass game again, have i got my 50 $ worth, sure. am i a satisfyed customer, no i wish that installing the patch that breaks the game was not manditory. The patch should be optional so that the 2nd patch could be played, as i feel it was a bit more stable and the problem of not being able to reconnect to all players in a reload was not such a issue, with the current patch i have numerous scraps on accout of players who could once connect to eachother durring launch, but then cannot connect even fron the lobby in a reload. though hamachi may improve this. i think it will make games more exclusive and lessen membership hopefully warlord will be ready to play mp then we can all quit this game and let it die Warlords is an expansion pack that will still utilize the original game engine so it will likely NOT fix the issues we are experiencing. Hamachi is freely available for download and at 750kb anyone can download it so I don't see how it would lessen membership remember this is just another tool in our MP arsenal it's not mandatory ,but we the players should be looking for a solution since firaxis is basily going to blame it on our routers and firewalls **wonder how that works with those that don't have either and experience the issues *** No, I am fundamentally opposed to this on a number of levels. 1. From my experience Hamachi works no better than Civ4. I was involved in one test game, which crashed upon entry, with about three people getting in. We tried once more, with no increased level of success. 2. I shouldn't need to bother with this to play a game of Civ4. I rarely have connection problems, and when I do they can usually be solved by the player in question rebooting. Sure, there can be problems from time to time, but to be honest I think the situation is exaggerated by a few very vocal users that seem to constantly have problems. 3. While I applaud the fact the Loki has been working on the solution to a perceived problem, I personally find the constant advertisements extremely irritating. Almost every thread in the General forum has a link to the "Hamachi C4 MP Lobby," or whatever the proper name is. It's a nice program to have when there may be a problem, but this type of shameless advertising seems rather pointless to me. It's no necessary, and it will be a great deal of hassle for very little benefit. From what I can tell, Hamachi allows people to get into a direct IP staging room without many problems. I have never had a problem getting players into a direct IP staging room, except for once during a test of Hamachi. Elledge could not connect to another player, and after spending nearly half an hour fiddling with a so-call "magic option" we either decided to launch anyway or managed to fix the problem (I don't remember exactly what the outcome was). 1) Test games are just that test games and I belive the test you are refering to was the day we had 17 people on hamachi to test it's max capacity with civ we had a couple of guys experiencing yellow status to each other possiably Elledge since he said he was in a test game anyway we recovered enough data from the game to post a thread on the bugs and support forum of our site to resolve most of the issues that 3% of the users were having 2) Thats funny I still see plenty of bad peer reports in the civ 4 lobby . 3) Don't expect me to stop promoting a work around that works plenty of gamers world wide use hamachi for creating a stable gaming enviroment not just civers. Well for some reason Elledge seems to be the exception to the rules, so I would hesitate to judge the software based on one bad test, I've had serveral test Hamachi games with no problems. most people will fall into the 97% category not the 3% that we have trouble with. CS Correct and we are trying to help the majority here we can always offer support to the minority through chat ,forums ,and in the most extreme cases I may be willing to do remote access to help. I do seem to have pretty bad luck with the connection stuff! I have no idea what to attribute it to. The weird thing is that the test worked the first time. Hamachi had no yellow dots, everyone connected, but the game froze for some reason - I think the host dropped immediately on launch. We had to reload, I think we all reconnected to Hamachi and that was when me and some other guy had connection problems to each other. In the end I think I just left. I don't think I've ever once seen anyone have problems get into a direct IP room. I haven't played any direct IP games since patch - is it as bad with them as it is with Gamespy? Yes we have come across this once before where players see one another in hamachi as green then the game launches and one goes yellow and it can crash a game this happens when one user exhausts all his bandwith (had to contact the Hamachi guys when I seen that happen thats how I know it's bandwith in this case) one of the guys would have been on dial up or just experiencing a laggy day . As I have mentioned before most of the connection issues that the 3% of users experience can be cleared up simply by reading and following the recomendations I have posted on the bugs and support board of the Hamachi C4MP Lobby and the few links off site in them to the hamachi.cc support boards. I still don't like the idea of having to use this to run a game. Well I to would love to have a perfectly working MP engine in civ ,but alas I don't foresee it hapening so it's up to us to find a workaround and quit hoping and waiting that it will come in the form of a patch. Hamachi is used world wide by more people than you think for gaming and not just CIV IV that alone should be a testament to it's ability to connect gamers together. ------ Man I swear you guys keep me busy here with these replies
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Post by Gogf on Apr 28, 2006 18:56:06 GMT -5
1) Test games are just that test games and I belive the test you are refering to was the day we had 17 people on hamachi to test it's max capacity with civ we had a couple of guys experiencing yellow status to each other possiably Elledge since he said he was in a test game anyway we recovered enough data from the game to post a thread on the bugs and support forum of our site to resolve most of the issues that 3% of the users were having 2) Thats funny I still see plenty of bad peer reports in the civ 4 lobby . 3) Don't expect me to stop promoting a work around that works plenty of gamers world wide use hamachi for creating a stable gaming enviroment not just civers. 1. Yes, that is the game I am talking about, but it certainly had less than seventeen people in it. 2. Did you read my post? I said that it is nearly always solved by the user in question rebooting. Just because they need to find out that they're a bad peer before rebooting doesn't mean that rebooting doesn't help. Sure, it's a hassle, but then so is installing and using Hamachi. 3. I don't expect you not to want to promote your product, but I object to the fact that you're allowed to so shamelessly advertise it. It's not my forum and the admins can run it as they wish, but in my humble opinion this is rather ridiculous. I mean, if you posted it here and had a thread for support over here that would be understandable, but every post touting the greatness of Hamachi invariably links back to your own website and support forum. So is Gamespy.
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Post by loki1023 on Apr 28, 2006 19:31:11 GMT -5
1) Test games are just that test games and I belive the test you are refering to was the day we had 17 people on hamachi to test it's max capacity with civ we had a couple of guys experiencing yellow status to each other possiably Elledge since he said he was in a test game anyway we recovered enough data from the game to post a thread on the bugs and support forum of our site to resolve most of the issues that 3% of the users were having 2) Thats funny I still see plenty of bad peer reports in the civ 4 lobby . 3) Don't expect me to stop promoting a work around that works plenty of gamers world wide use hamachi for creating a stable gaming enviroment not just civers. 1. Yes, that is the game I am talking about, but it certainly had less than seventeen people in it. 2. Did you read my post? I said that it is nearly always solved by the user in question rebooting. Just because they need to find out that they're a bad peer before rebooting doesn't mean that rebooting doesn't help. Sure, it's a hassle, but then so is installing and using Hamachi. 3. I don't expect you not to want to promote your product, but I object to the fact that you're allowed to so shamelessly advertise it. It's not my forum and the admins can run it as they wish, but in my humble opinion this is rather ridiculous. I mean, if you posted it here and had a thread for support over here that would be understandable, but every post touting the greatness of Hamachi invariably links back to your own website and support forum. So is Gamespy. 1) Yea we had difficulties getting people to stay people are impatient and after the first crash many left ,but we still got some good data from it. 2) Rebooting only helps a segment of the player base ,and if you use civ4fans you can skip that step . 3) Well first off it's not my product I do however promote it since it works to connect people together 97% of the time flawlessly. As for my posting on the general boards I do belive it's been restrained in three threads one thread was created by Levi when I originaly brought up the idea of hamachi to him since then I have posted updates in that thread. the second was in the "connection problems got worse" thread where nearly everyone bitches ,but no one looks for a solution I presented one . I guess in a community unwilling to find it's own solutions and instead keeps hoping and waiting that firaxis will fix it I should expect to hear mostly complaints. the third is this poll and I don't plan to stop replying to peoples posts any time soon and in my opinion this ladder needs more people like me willing to stand up and say enough and look for other solutions to aid in the MP experience of CIV and to any other issues we may experience ie eiffle with his civ4fans is another example of members we need more of. Also gamespy does not specialize in networking they specialize in gaming where as the guys at Hamach didn't design the app for gaming they designed it to network people together hence their ability to do so better than civ & gs.
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Post by Avogadro on Apr 28, 2006 22:14:41 GMT -5
Gogf,
From an administrative point of view it is quite simple. We wish to offer the best conditions possible for our ladderites. Civ4 is plagues with conection issues as it is a peer to peer software. From our discussions with developpers there is no way these MP issues shall be resolve through patches or Warlords.
Now we all know "most" connection issues have to deal with firewalls/routers/antiviral etc etc. The advantages of Hamachi as far as we can tell is that it allows people to penetrate these blockades and thus connect to each other more easily.
I have mentionned before should we have to do this aftyer spending 50-60$? Hell no but...this will not be fixed for us so what do we do? We either let people gets overlyfrustrated and quick Civ4 MP or we try to implement a new system which would permit ladderites to better enjoy their games.
We are thus endorsing this product, it is freeware and should therefore not be an issue with anyone.
Our main ladder page shall soon have a link to hamachi so that all ladders can quickly become aware to go d/l it. It should not take long for hamachi players to find games posted on a regular basis.
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Post by Gogf on Apr 28, 2006 22:41:03 GMT -5
Avogrado: I can completely understand where you are coming from. I personally disagree, but I am not a ladder admin. You guys run the ladder, and I completely respect your decision; however, I question the rationale behind posting a poll like this if the result will not be taken into account when making your decision. Anyway, it's up to you guys, and I put my faith in you to make a good decision. As long as I can still find ladder games without Hamachi, which the lack of a positive response to this poll implies, I will be perfectly happy. Who knows, maybe I'll end up being converted to the Hamachi camp at some point . Loki: I think that it certainly is great that you are working hard of a solution while the majority of the ladder just sits back and complains. I personally feel that this should not be made the ladder standard, but it certainly is a nice tool to have, and your work is appreciated.
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Post by Elledge on Apr 28, 2006 22:47:13 GMT -5
Avogrado: I can completely understand where you are coming from. I personally disagree, but I am not a ladder admin. You guys run the ladder, and I completely respect your decision; however, I question the rationale behind posting a poll like this if the result will not be taken into account when making your decision. Anyway, it's up to you guys, and I put my faith in you to make a good decision. As long as I can still find ladder games without Hamachi, which the lack of a positive response to this poll implies, I will be perfectly happy. Who knows, maybe I'll end up being converted to the Hamachi camp at some point . Loki: I think that it certainly is great that you are working hard of a solution while the majority of the ladder just sits back and complains. I personally feel that this should not be made the ladder standard, but it certainly is a nice tool to have, and your work is appreciated. Great post! I agree with every word.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 28, 2006 22:48:06 GMT -5
Avogrado: I can completely understand where you are coming from. I personally disagree, but I am not a ladder admin. You guys run the ladder, and I completely respect your decision; however, I question the rationale behind posting a poll like this if the result will not be taken into account when making your decision. Anyway, it's up to you guys, and I put my faith in you to make a good decision. As long as I can still find ladder games without Hamachi, which the lack of a positive response to this poll implies, I will be perfectly happy. Who knows, maybe I'll end up being converted to the Hamachi camp at some point . Loki: I think that it certainly is great that you are working hard of a solution while the majority of the ladder just sits back and complains. I personally feel that this should not be made the ladder standard, but it certainly is a nice tool to have, and your work is appreciated. If I was to see a complete hatred for Hamachi in this poll then we would likely not endorse it. However, this poll is not very scientific as a very small percentage of ladderites visit the forums, which is why we are posting an announcement about this poll on the main ladder page. We are just hoping for a wider response. Most people are just not knowledgable about what Hamachi is or can do, and I believe there is always a "fear factor" of something that is unknown. And it doesn't really matter if we endorse it or not, it won't be mandatory or have any negative results for players that chose not to use it. The administration is just hoping that it eventually recieves a wide audence so that the general enjoyment of the ladder MP game will increase. In fact I'm a bit susprised at the immediate negative reaction from several people, but you don't know what will happen until you ask CS
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Post by Gogf on Apr 28, 2006 23:02:50 GMT -5
And it doesn't really matter if we endorse it or not, it won't be mandatory or have any negative results for players that chose not to use it. The administration is just hoping that it eventually recieves a wide audence so that the general enjoyment of the ladder MP game will increase. In fact I'm a bit susprised at the immediate negative reaction from several people, but you don't know what will happen until you ask CS This was almost certainly due to the wording of the poll: For some reason, I seem to have ignored the opening post, as looking back at it now, it is quite clear that it would not be mandatory. The fact that I simply read the poll question and then the debate in the thread led me to believe that ladder games would be played exclusively with Hamachi, which I would not want. As long as it's simply a recommendation, I have no problem with it whatsoever.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 28, 2006 23:46:59 GMT -5
And it doesn't really matter if we endorse it or not, it won't be mandatory or have any negative results for players that chose not to use it. The administration is just hoping that it eventually recieves a wide audence so that the general enjoyment of the ladder MP game will increase. In fact I'm a bit susprised at the immediate negative reaction from several people, but you don't know what will happen until you ask CS This was almost certainly due to the wording of the poll: For some reason, I seem to have ignored the opening post, as looking back at it now, it is quite clear that it would not be mandatory. The fact that I simply read the poll question and then the debate in the thread led me to believe that ladder games would be played exclusively with Hamachi, which I would not want. As long as it's simply a recommendation, I have no problem with it whatsoever. How was the poll worded badly? I thought my first post on the reasoning behind the poll was clear that this would a recommendation policy if adopted. CS
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Post by tommynt on Apr 29, 2006 2:28:35 GMT -5
Hm, some people make a too big thing out of using this superlil program - i dont think that it s a do or die.
the reason why it s not used is that there are often no problems in goin into staging room - so many people just think it s not needed.
But why not just download (dl and inst takes less then 3 min for sure) and use it when there are problems ..
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Post by venceslas on Apr 29, 2006 2:38:10 GMT -5
"I don't know how that would even be possiable as the players not using hamachi would be trying to comunicate to a 5.xxx.xxx.xxx range ip that hamachi has is not accessiable via the internet."
Sure, but Hamachi people can also use the standard IP.
chris.
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Post by Magzi on Apr 29, 2006 3:26:32 GMT -5
Yes Tommy, I like your idea best We all have it there if needed after a game has started.
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