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Post by zerza on Apr 29, 2006 8:35:47 GMT -5
I think its unnecessary.
Frieds all hot and bothered to make another needless patch, how about he make a patch that incorporates game mechanics from the newest patch and we all roll back the networking side of things to the old patch, at least it worked better.
I dont see how hamachi can fix the frozen game, which is the killer of 90% of all games.
I think the fact the game got 100% worse since they released the new patch is a testament to how Firaxis views its customers. At least when it happened with civ3 they released another patch very soon after. Now, they seem to be saying "f*ck you, we dont care about you, maybe our expansion will fix it, buy it and see"
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Post by Gogf on Apr 29, 2006 9:29:22 GMT -5
This was almost certainly due to the wording of the poll: For some reason, I seem to have ignored the opening post, as looking back at it now, it is quite clear that it would not be mandatory. The fact that I simply read the poll question and then the debate in the thread led me to believe that ladder games would be played exclusively with Hamachi, which I would not want. As long as it's simply a recommendation, I have no problem with it whatsoever. How was the poll worded badly? I thought my first post on the reasoning behind the poll was clear that this would a recommendation policy if adopted. CS I never said it was worded badly. The fact was that if someone reads the poll without reading the opening post, though, then they will get the wrong message. I guess the response to this thread simply shows how many people don't read the opening post. I'm surprising I didn't do this, as 99% of the time I'll read the opening post in a thread. :shrug:
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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 29, 2006 15:37:45 GMT -5
I think its unnecessary. Frieds all hot and bothered to make another needless patch, how about he make a patch that incorporates game mechanics from the newest patch and we all roll back the networking side of things to the old patch, at least it worked better. I dont see how hamachi can fix the frozen game, which is the killer of 90% of all games. I think the fact the game got 100% worse since they released the new patch is a testament to how Firaxis views its customers. At least when it happened with civ3 they released another patch very soon after. Now, they seem to be saying "f*ck you, we dont care about you, maybe our expansion will fix it, buy it and see" The newest patch is not the real problem Zerza, our problems with networking started with 1.52, when we got what we asked for, private messages, access to the lobby from the staging room, etc. 1.61 tried to address some of the bugs we found in 1.52, like the connection issues in the stating room, and the retire bug. But unfortunately while they fixed those specific issues the bugs moved on us. Would you be willing to give up the lobby improvements we got in 1.52 to improve the stability in general? Personally I think we need to dump the GS NAT system completely and go back to the way C3C interacted with GS, yes it would mean you would not see inprogress games in the lobby, and hotjoining would have to be done via Direct IP, like it was with Civ2MGE. I'm not sure a large code change like this is possible but we can always ask. Firaxis is not saying f** you at all, they simiply don't have a solution yet to the in game instability, they are trying to track down the bug that is causing game to freeze when a dead player leaves(the old retire bug) after they thought they fixed the retire bug by removing the retire option. This may be related to the ingame stability it's not clear right now until we find a solution and then test it. No Hamachi can't solve game issues, but it can solve any router/firewall/NAT issues. And you might say that they aren't a problem but I think they are more ofa problem than we can measure properly. And eliminating them is a good thing. CS
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Post by Avogadro on Apr 29, 2006 20:27:44 GMT -5
If someone has the time a screenshot tutorial on how to use Hamachi may be helpful. I'm not comp savvy and admit I have troubles running it.
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Post by Tony on Apr 29, 2006 20:32:10 GMT -5
Hmm, i havt used Lokis hamachi lobby thing, but using hamachi to direct IP is unbelivable simple.
1) Run hamachi 2) join a VPN, by clicking on join VPN. You must know user name and pass for VPN, via PM or something 3) launch civ 4) click on direct IP 5) enter the hosts V-IP 6) Bobs your uncle
If you over the most over the buttons it tells you what they do
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Post by Canucksoldier on Apr 29, 2006 20:34:07 GMT -5
If someone has the time a screenshot tutorial on how to use Hamachi may be helpful. I'm not comp savvy and admit I have troubles running it. Loki has made a good tutorial here. civ4vpn.shadowsdominion.com/CS
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Post by salqadri on Apr 29, 2006 20:38:19 GMT -5
The point of all this is, should the ladder admins *push* for this as the standard way for playing ladder games? I say yes. If everyone recognizes that this is the way to play Civ MP, and they want to play Civ MP, then they will use it.
I am thus in support of the Hamachi Solution, though I havent yet tried it myself. However, so far there have been no major connectivity complaints about it, and I strongly believe we need to do something to continue to enable people to play MP games on Civ. Personally I've almost given up with Civ MP, and nowadays only play either Civ in SP or some other game for MP fun.
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Post by loki1023 on Apr 29, 2006 22:05:27 GMT -5
If someone has the time a screenshot tutorial on how to use Hamachi may be helpful. I'm not comp savvy and admit I have troubles running it. As CS mentioned I have plenty of tutorials on my site html with screen shots and flash tutorials for broad band and modem users. civ4vpn.shadowsdominion.com/?n=pages/tutorialslistings**You don't think I would find a solultion then create a list for listing the games and not make tutorials do you ? =p Hmm, i havt used Lokis hamachi lobby thing, but using hamachi to direct IP is unbelivable simple. 1) Run hamachi 2) join a VPN, by clicking on join VPN. You must know user name and pass for VPN, via PM or something 3) launch civ 4) click on direct IP 5) enter the hosts V-IP 6) Bobs your uncle If you over the most over the buttons it tells you what they do Thank you Tony as I said before it's simpler than an instant messaging client to use ,but I dunno how number six fits in there as for number two thats why I created the listing script on my site you can join the network simply by clicking on the game name link The point of all this is, should the ladder admins *push* for this as the standard way for playing ladder games? I say yes. If everyone recognizes that this is the way to play Civ MP, and they want to play Civ MP, then they will use it. I am thus in support of the Hamachi Solution, though I havent yet tried it myself. However, so far there have been no major connectivity complaints about it, and I strongly believe we need to do something to continue to enable people to play MP games on Civ. Personally I've almost given up with Civ MP, and nowadays only play either Civ in SP or some other game for MP fun. Exactly my point people are getting fed up with the mp problem and some may stop trying to play MP all together if the ladder helps to make Hamachi a civ IV standard then others will follow and as a side effect if the ladder uses my site to lists it's games others may join the ladder just to join a stable game and help bring life to this community . ***Well it could happen
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Apr 30, 2006 6:53:17 GMT -5
::glances nervously at the poll:: If that scores four more votes, I may have to go shopping.
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Post by zerza on Apr 30, 2006 8:35:25 GMT -5
Fried, as sexy as your are in a pink tutu (and you are quite, quite sexy in a pink tutu) I had to vote No instead. After all these years I suppose the novelty of Fried parading in a pink tutu has faded :: glances back at poster of Fried in a pink tutu :: For Hamachi, I think its not necessary. If people would restart CIV after crashes, or when they notice problems they would have FAR less issues. People are to stupid to do this, dont make it harder for me out of their laziness. The ONLY bug I see to be a problem is the FREEZE, and I have been offered no evidence that Hamachi fixes this. So in essence, we will be making it twice as hard to find a game by using a program that fixes nothing all because some clowns are to lazy to restart civ now and then For you people with problems, RESTART CIV, stay off the porn sites and find a good spyware detector A good fix for the FREEZE is to have a dead player WAIT one turn to retire. I rarely see it freeze as long as a killed player waits a turn.
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Post by loki1023 on Apr 30, 2006 20:20:09 GMT -5
Fried, as sexy as your are in a pink tutu (and you are quite, quite sexy in a pink tutu) I had to vote No instead. After all these years I suppose the novelty of Fried parading in a pink tutu has faded :: glances back at poster of Fried in a pink tutu :: For Hamachi, I think its not necessary. If people would restart CIV after crashes, or when they notice problems they would have FAR less issues. People are to stupid to do this, dont make it harder for me out of their laziness. The ONLY bug I see to be a problem is the FREEZE, and I have been offered no evidence that Hamachi fixes this. So in essence, we will be making it twice as hard to find a game by using a program that fixes nothing all because some clowns are to lazy to restart civ now and then For you people with problems, RESTART CIV, stay off the porn sites and find a good spyware detector A good fix for the FREEZE is to have a dead player WAIT one turn to retire. I rarely see it freeze as long as a killed player waits a turn. Restarting civ helps in some cases ,but not most of them and most of the issues are due to the p2p code in civ if we provide a more hospitable network enviroment with Hamachi we can greatly increase the stability of civ MP.
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Post by zerza on Apr 30, 2006 20:48:53 GMT -5
Again, nothing said concerning the freezes. That is the ONLY issue facing real civvers. The noobs will eventually listen to and restart CIV at first sign of trouble. The lobby issues are moot, and only an annoyance. About as annoying as installing an entirely new program and splitting the lobby into 2 types of incompatible games I'll just keep restarting civ for now, unless perhaps theres good cause to believe the game will freeze less with hamachi.
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Post by MMV on May 1, 2006 7:33:14 GMT -5
....... or at the VERY least, for you players that play 3-4 games in a row - shutdown and restart your comp between games
which is a good time to take a bathroom break instead of in the game staging area after everyone's been waiting 10-15 minutes for launch and suddenly someone says "AKF 10 minute, bathroom break."
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Post by markweston on May 1, 2006 14:48:48 GMT -5
OK, I answered "no"
1. I have concerns about using Hamachi. I have a firewall for a reason. Opening a great big VPN tunnel through it and giving free access to my PC is not something I'm particularly comfortable with.
2. Direct IP games (whether Hamachi'd or not) are not as open or accessible as games in the lobby. If a ladder player joins the lobby, he can see immediately what lobby games are looking for players. If they're passworded, he can then find out who's hosting and ask to join.
Direct IP games are obviously not visible. They rely on lobby spam (and how many of us essentially ignore the lobby?) which is hardly a reliable way of providing a list of available games. Or more likely, they'll be recruited for by players looking out for other players they know and like and ignoring the rest. In other words, the Ladder will become less of an open gaming community (you're supposed to play any challenger regardless of rank), and more like a collection of self-selecting cliques.
And if there are no ladder games to join, then as has been pointed out, there will be no newcomers to the lobby asking "what's ladder?"
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Post by zerza on May 1, 2006 15:26:30 GMT -5
I think Mark has my earlier sentiments to a "t"
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Post by loki1023 on May 1, 2006 19:43:08 GMT -5
OK, I answered "no" 1. I have concerns about using Hamachi. I have a firewall for a reason. Opening a great big VPN tunnel through it and giving free access to my PC is not something I'm particularly comfortable with. 2. Direct IP games (whether Hamachi'd or not) are not as open or accessible as games in the lobby. If a ladder player joins the lobby, he can see immediately what lobby games are looking for players. If they're passworded, he can then find out who's hosting and ask to join. Direct IP games are obviously not visible. They rely on lobby spam (and how many of us essentially ignore the lobby?) which is hardly a reliable way of providing a list of available games. Or more likely, they'll be recruited for by players looking out for other players they know and like and ignoring the rest. In other words, the Ladder will become less of an open gaming community (you're supposed to play any challenger regardless of rank), and more like a collection of self-selecting cliques. And if there are no ladder games to join, then as has been pointed out, there will be no newcomers to the lobby asking "what's ladder?" 1) You can still run your firewall on Hamachi I do this also Hamachi has a built in security option that you can enable on installation or after later. I also have an additional security tutorial that goes even further for the extremely paranoid types (not needed ,but if it makes them feel safer) so security is NOT an issue here it's civers that do not want to help themselves. 2) Open your web browser to Hamachi C4MP Lobby you can list your games just like the GS lobby again I have already thought of this issue ahead of time and if you use CIV4FANS you can chat in the GS lobby and view the games list at the same time (The Hamachi Lobby now has easy to use buttons on the main toolbar). Any one can access the site and your still using the GS chat room so I don't know how it would become a gated community you would just be leading the way towards a more stable MP experience and one way or another the Hamachi word will spread ***Small notice I'll likely offer remote access tech support soon for that 3% of hamachi users that may experience issues that they are unable to figure out / fix on their own.
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Post by markweston on May 2, 2006 5:25:01 GMT -5
While it's good that Hamachi tries to block key Windows vulnerabilities, that doesn't change the fact that being connected to other players over a VPN is fundamentally different to being connected over the internet from behind NAT and a firewall. And call people paranoid as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that worms and viruses exist and are endemic, and that millions of PCs out there are under the control of someone other than their owner. When I went to the Hamachi site I found that their entire security briefing was about how well Hamachi VPN tunnels are protected from outside attack, which is completely beside the point as far as any of us is concerned.
It is pretty likely that there'll be a small group of players within the C4P community who unknowingly have something nasty on their PC, and connecting to them this way will increase yoiur chance of catching it. It also seems likely that at some point one of those idiots who likes breaking stuff will join C4P and will find a way to exploit the trust implied in joining a VPN with other players.
None of this is intended to be personal criticism Loki.
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Post by zerza on May 2, 2006 6:25:03 GMT -5
Its all a conspiracy theory Make buggy game, we install hamachi, they steal all our PrOn
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Post by loki1023 on May 2, 2006 11:23:50 GMT -5
While it's good that Hamachi tries to block key Windows vulnerabilities, that doesn't change the fact that being connected to other players over a VPN is fundamentally different to being connected over the internet from behind NAT and a firewall. And call people paranoid as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that worms and viruses exist and are endemic, and that millions of PCs out there are under the control of someone other than their owner. When I went to the Hamachi site I found that their entire security briefing was about how well Hamachi VPN tunnels are protected from outside attack, which is completely beside the point as far as any of us is concerned. It is pretty likely that there'll be a small group of players within the C4P community who unknowingly have something nasty on their PC, and connecting to them this way will increase yoiur chance of catching it. It also seems likely that at some point one of those idiots who likes breaking stuff will join C4P and will find a way to exploit the trust implied in joining a VPN with other players. None of this is intended to be personal criticism Loki. None taken ,but you keep skiping over the part where you can use a software firewall like zonealarm on the VPN tunnel to further protect yourself along with Hamachi's built in security at that point there is little diffrence in security. When ever you forward ports on your router to your pc your exposing yourself system to worms and other nasties and we live with multiple ports open daily just to use the gamespy lobby hamachi can utilize just one of those ports to create a very stable gaming enviroment for civ not to mention the internet is a bigger scarier place then a small vpn community. As for anyone that tries to use Hamachi to cause harm to anothers system we can have several options 1) Report them to the Hamachi admin team and get them banned from the app. 2) Report them to their ISP for abuse which could also result in their isp disconecting them or more. 3) Ban them from the site so they cannot see the games list so they do not know the details to join a game . 4) I am sure I can think of more ,but my point is with a software firewall in the mix Hamachi is no more of a security risk then what we already do to ourselves on a daily basis to use GS.
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Post by loki1023 on May 2, 2006 11:27:13 GMT -5
Its all a conspiracy theory Make buggy game, we install hamachi, they steal all our PrOn don't worry we are not into the stuff you have wth is with the tin foil hats and the people in the rubber alien suits probing one another anyway =p just kidding
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