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Cosshax
Feb 21, 2006 16:05:19 GMT -5
Post by Atomation on Feb 21, 2006 16:05:19 GMT -5
Does anyone know if cossaks are going to be nerfed down to their proper power in the next patch? In my opinion it is glaringly obvious they should be nerfed, 17 strength 50% bonus vs mounted would still be incredibly powerful!
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Cosshax
Feb 21, 2006 17:47:12 GMT -5
Post by friedrichpsitalon on Feb 21, 2006 17:47:12 GMT -5
You really think that one point of strength would be that substantial for a Cossack nerf?
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Cosshax
Feb 21, 2006 18:15:28 GMT -5
Post by tommynt on Feb 21, 2006 18:15:28 GMT -5
at the moment there s no unit to counter em -
if u d give shooter 50% vs mounted not 25% and maybe make em availabe 1 tech earlier- there d be the stone paper cutter prinzip
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Cosshax
Feb 21, 2006 18:32:10 GMT -5
Post by Tony on Feb 21, 2006 18:32:10 GMT -5
Yeah that would make sense.
Or take off the bounus agianst mounted units. Then cavs can be used to strike back, they would still be strong but nothing like what they are now.
Maybe give them oher perks instead like treat all terrin like grass.
Or how would a 3 move unit play out?
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Cosshax
Feb 21, 2006 19:39:27 GMT -5
Post by mrgametheory on Feb 21, 2006 19:39:27 GMT -5
The only unit that can faze a cossack is a red coat, the unit is extremely unbalanced, but at the same time, so are red coats and most other units in their era and thats kind of the point, but I would say that of every military unit for every era, Russia's special unit is the most superior on a value scale...
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Cosshax
Feb 21, 2006 19:56:56 GMT -5
Post by Atomation on Feb 21, 2006 19:56:56 GMT -5
Well, as I said in the original post, even if it was nerfed 1 point and 50% less vs mounted, it would be incredibly powerful, so to answer your question : both yes and no. They would still be overpowered, but 1 strength lost would make quite a difference when you consider that in most ren games, the average team usually makes sure the russian has a ridiculously huge stack of cossaks to the point that a truely abusive team might have everyone on the team gift as many knights to the russian and have the whole team go 100% gold to allow the russian to make that whole stack cossaks (at least I know that's what I try to do when I play ren teamers). The resulting power reduction of 1 less strength to a stack of 30, 40, or even 50 cossaks is quite severe.
On a side note, I strongly feel that tommy's suggestion of buffing rifles against them is the incorrect solution. Rifles are too far down the line - and if you survive long enough to get them you will probably be ok anyway. If anything, give normal muskets a bonus against mounted...50%? The only downside of this is that perhaps pikemen would be replaced and have no purpose in the era, aside from them being cheaper, so I still like the simple idea of nerfing cossaks for sure and maybe even cavalry (14 strength, 13 strength?) . The fact that they have 2 movement points should be a good enough bonus to make them worth building, without any disproportionate strengths.
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 0:04:07 GMT -5
Post by ironclad on Feb 22, 2006 0:04:07 GMT -5
i eat cossacks for breakfast and btw i was wondering how tommy got so many cossacks today when i had higher mfg it was cause his whole team gifted knights and upgrade thats lame, russia shoulda only be able to upgrade knights that it built itslef
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 0:42:33 GMT -5
Post by Atomation on Feb 22, 2006 0:42:33 GMT -5
Cossaks shouldn't be upgradable from knights at all, you mean. Nor should any other UU be an upgraded byproduct IMO.
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 3:57:48 GMT -5
Post by mrgametheory on Feb 22, 2006 3:57:48 GMT -5
Riflemen should be able to kill cossacks period, by allowing cossacks to be the most powerful unit On the board except redcoats for such a ridiculous amount of time, It creates the most unbalanced settings up until infantry which is unacceptable. If you understand the entire setting of ren you soon realize that cossacks are not only the most unbalanced unit in the game pound for pound, but it actually seems as if the cossack was designed to completely ruin Ren games.
In my opinion. Cossacks Should have their strength Lowered to 14. They should be allowed to still slaughter Calvary, and take most cities, but they should deffinitly die at the hands of riflemen and musket men defending highly fortified cities. To even allow the cossack to have 16 strength would make it even with riflemen and make it the strongest unit till infantry. When A unit is so strong that it will still maintain its ultimate fury when 2 strength points are taken from it, you may have a serious balance issue.
This has been on my top 5 balance issue list for some time. If possible, make this change in the next patch.
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 5:36:04 GMT -5
Post by tommynt on Feb 22, 2006 5:36:04 GMT -5
I didnt need gifted untis ... in fact i was gifting
the upgrading is incredible cheap - I really wonder about that - as upgarding is really not that cheap for other units
anyway I like cossacs - if i have em myself ...
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 5:44:39 GMT -5
Post by Tony on Feb 22, 2006 5:44:39 GMT -5
Phitrigger whats your ladder name btw?
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 9:08:42 GMT -5
Post by Lestat on Feb 22, 2006 9:08:42 GMT -5
Mrs wot u talking Reduce cossak to 14 is terminating UU units. We want games without UU ? I dont. Cossak is beatable with spearmans and cats also. Was tested it... Yes lets do that only 1 civilization in game and no UU. Maybe civ4 vanilla mod or UU mod will fix that.
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agent_x7
Settler
Agent of Truth
Posts: 65
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 18:31:54 GMT -5
Post by agent_x7 on Feb 22, 2006 18:31:54 GMT -5
Just build pikemen, a properly upgraded pikeman can kill an inexperienced cossack. Even of you don't have veteran pikemen, just suicide attack with the first pikeman, finish off the wounded cossack with the second, and use the experience points to upgrade to combat 1, combat 2, and then formation. Upgrading cossacks is also weak, since it is unlikely that the entire team will be able to mass enough gold to upgrade more than an absoute maximum 7-10 knights, unless it turns science to 0, suicide in a renissance teamer. I think cossacks should have their mounted bonus removed, but nothing else. The redcoat is just as overpowered as the cossack.
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 19:08:23 GMT -5
Post by Atomation on Feb 22, 2006 19:08:23 GMT -5
Cossak with combat I and shock has 22.7 power. A pikeman with equal experience can only gain combat II, and can't get formation yet, so only has 14.4 power vs cossaks. The probably of a pike winning that is most likely around .01%, and the cossak really isn't going to take much damage. Pike suiciding doesn't seem particiularly productive - catapult suiciding followed by pike suiciding MIGHT work, but you'd probably end up using MANY more resources than the russian all things totalled! Keep in mind also that a truely productive team would have all the other players "hanging on" and turtle while feeding all they have to the russia. Being on the defensive against such an enormous stack is very difficult, since a good russian always moves into position to threaten as many cities as possible within two turns of moves, thus forcing the defender to spread too thinly. The bigger the cossak stack is, the more difficult it becomes to defend, barring the use of excessive catapults (probably the only REAL way to counter mass cossaks, if there is one at all). A cannon rush might be an interesting counter too.......would deserve some testing I think.
If the whole team goes 0% science, all gold, for 4-5 turns, you can upgrade quite a damn few knights. How is this "suicide"? 5 turns to make an army of 20 knights double in power? That sounds like an absolutely imbalanced deal to me, far from suicide. Just think of it this way - if there was a technology advance for 5 turns of research that automatically made knights approximately twice as powerful, wouldn't that seem really imbalanced? It sure would to me.
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 19:24:56 GMT -5
Post by zzZhenon on Feb 22, 2006 19:24:56 GMT -5
that's why you need catapults and pikes
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Cosshax
Feb 22, 2006 20:29:12 GMT -5
Post by MMV on Feb 22, 2006 20:29:12 GMT -5
how tough they were historically is WHY they are a special unit in civ.
I'm sure the old enemies of the "cossaks" sat around the campfire complaining about the same thing.
"omg, today these cossak tribes attacked us and KICKED our arses! ask bobbo here, NEVER seen anything like it! BLIMEY, we tried sticks, stones, spears, bows/arrows, even pharted in their general direction - NOTHING worked - we need more resources, more research, SPECIAL UNITS I tell'ya!"
they "rule" in their time and wreak havoc, but eventually, through resources and technology, they become obsolete.
(or, you die cursing them)
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Cosshax
Feb 23, 2006 5:18:06 GMT -5
Post by Tony on Feb 23, 2006 5:18:06 GMT -5
Just build pikemen, a properly upgraded pikeman can kill an inexperienced cossack. Even of you don't have veteran pikemen, just suicide attack with the first pikeman, finish off the wounded cossack with the second, and use the experience points to upgrade to combat 1, combat 2, and then formation. Upgrading cossacks is also weak, since it is unlikely that the entire team will be able to mass enough gold to upgrade more than an absoute maximum 7-10 knights, unless it turns science to 0, suicide in a renissance teamer. I think cossacks should have their mounted bonus removed, but nothing else. The redcoat is just as overpowered as the cossack. OMG agent what game have you been playing all this time? It sure dont sound like CIV4
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Cosshax
Feb 23, 2006 5:24:48 GMT -5
Post by tommynt on Feb 23, 2006 5:24:48 GMT -5
ya agent is quite wrong in this case - the upgrading kicks ass - last ren teamer i had as only back player about 7 knights rdy to upgrade - exactly these 7 cavs made the difference when raiding trough all opponent land - land is limited in ren - so is the ability to build stuff - with mainly experienced players the difference in units ll allways be knida small - so some more units on 1 front can kick ass
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Cosshax
Feb 23, 2006 12:50:05 GMT -5
Post by longhorn on Feb 23, 2006 12:50:05 GMT -5
IMO- The main problem with cossacks and redcoats is that we are kind of taking them out of context by playing a lot of reni starts. In the scheme of things, if we were to start from ancient and play up to this era... there would not be such an imbalance issue. Part of the reward for having to wait so long for your UU is that its pretty powerful. In other words, I dont think cossacks are that much greater then fast workers in the overall game. Musketeers, Camel Archers, Conquistadors, and Skirmishers are all examples of very powerful (almost overwhelming) units when they first becoame available. You also aren't able to draft cossaks, and you have to have horses-- which all help balance the game. Are cossacks powerful... sure they are.. but properly promoted redcoats drafted and produced can slaughter them any day of the week... if you can survive until rifles This 'overwhelming' cossack advantage is a 'cost' for starting the game in a later era.
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Cosshax
Feb 23, 2006 13:41:49 GMT -5
Post by Tony on Feb 23, 2006 13:41:49 GMT -5
No one is saying they are too powerful in an epic. Techs are so fast at that stage you can quickly get to riffles, and get infantry in good time.
Redcoats can kill cossacks if they are premoted right or not. 25% of 16 is 4. Thats 20 versus 18!!
The problem with cassacks are as follows, both teams get cavs at roughly the same time, at this stage your empire is pretty well developed, and you can start making cavs pretty fast, in most cites. With a good chance of heroic epic, along with all the knights you have upto this piont. Then we have a LONG time before you get riffles, in this time period you are facing a huge cav unslught.
To make things worst, its soo hard to get mounted shock, riffles can just about handle them (17.5 versus 18 slightly in favour of cassack), but cossak can easilly get gunpoweder shock.
Pikes definatly cant, cata/pikes only works agiasnt foolish cossack controllers. Cossacks in ctons are even more stipud, but ren era ctons are BS anyway.
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