|
Post by atombomb on Jan 6, 2006 11:56:55 GMT -5
The 8 turn axeman, 2x2:
This is an issue I strongly feel needs addressing. Take an instance where, on a smaller sized map, one player happens to build directly on copper. Their scout has found a few gold huts. They research bronze working first. The result? After only a mere 8 turns - about the time that it would take you to even find the player - a warrior is upgraded to an axeman, and then takes a leasurely stroll over to the enemy and win. There simply is no recourse for this! There is no time to chop for defenses, no amount of warriors to stave off the axeman, and even archers are too far off and too many resources to have in hand :/. I feel strongly that a) If you build on a tile that occupies a hidden resource, that resource is destroyed (although you could still build on a tile with a visible resource) or b) Axemen have their copper building priveledges removed, and force iron (thus forcing at least a few more years) or c) a certain technology, such as construction or metal casting, be necessary to upgrade a unit.
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Jan 6, 2006 12:56:38 GMT -5
Ive seen this happen aswell before, but its to rare to address IMO.
I guess it like in the old civ having a 4 cow start!!
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Jan 6, 2006 13:16:34 GMT -5
I'd rather have that than get killed turn 5 cause I couldn't build a warrior This should happen once in a blue moon and shouldn't be too much of a problem IMO. Personally I'd rather start with bronze next to my capital, OK I might not get a cheezy win but with a mine to work with I'll have a better resource yield.
|
|
|
Post by Lestat on Jan 6, 2006 16:15:15 GMT -5
To upgrade warrior into axewoman u need bronze... just simply and enuf. We all are diferent type of players some are builders other are killers ... Reading this forum i saw many builder yellping post. First no citie razing is backup for builders players. In 1 game i got 3 enemies town + 4 mine and my economy was crashed. Second no upgrade is on this way ... builders backup. Third horses techonlogy is to much expensive and it is also backup for builders.
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Jan 7, 2006 2:11:11 GMT -5
City raising is quite simply for the big girls blouse serial woss player Agree with Lestat 100%, city raising is about what land you start with, quite simply the worst cton setting ever, players who argue against this are just too stupid to realise what the hell I'm talking about. Play no city raising or don't play with me, squite simple ;D ;D Builders are idiots, with a resource near I'll kill them every time. OK in the past four matches I've had no bronze or early resource but that's beside the point; God likes to make me look stupid, I've come to accept this Don't kill too many people Lestat, just a couple of cities will see your score rocket to first place. And only kill those who are close. Horse technology is the one true path to killing builders, if you have your average serially slowed builder next to you, simply go straight for horse if you have them after ah, chop for six or 7 or so maybe more maybe less. axemen come off second best to them and they have to know what resources you have to know to build spear, with horse archers they'll be dead before they get the chance, 99.9% of people will be building axes with Bronze anyway. If I have horse close or closish and there are two builder players near me, I will kill both. and then sit back on my acquired land and build my arse off untill someone has the sense to try and stop me Edit: right part 9 in the Sidhe omg map screwed again saga, started off as Egypt great I thought time to do some damage, no horse, bronze ah ok it'll be cool, dead turn 20 to a load of horse I could of had no chance of knowing my opponent would be building horse not axe or whatever, my own tactic use against me, had I of had horse I would of killed both of my opponents starting with the guy who killed me, no probs as well cause he had no early bronze, thus the horse tactic, as it was with no territory outside of the capital worth nuts I was screwed. Don't think I'm a serila whinner I'm not but is there any way tell me of getting resources you need or half decent land in any game? Cause personally I'm not seeing it? lol still fun games but really would like to win occasionally, or even have the chance to. i scouted him out asap, saw horse and thought nuts I'm dead game over.
|
|
|
Post by Atomation on Jan 8, 2006 23:37:39 GMT -5
If you were killed turn 5 because you couldn't build a warrior, you probably built your city in a very poor position. In games where I start with a scout, I always max out resources from turn 1 to ensure a 3 to 4 turn warrior. The axeman issue is rather unavoidable, your issue is very avoidable.
|
|
|
Post by ironclad on Jan 9, 2006 0:32:41 GMT -5
sidhe most of the time it takes one turn for a settler cause u chop does no damage to ur prod. of troops
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Jan 9, 2006 1:08:47 GMT -5
I kinda think your missing the point here, it takes a minimum of 6 turns to build a warrior regardless of where you start with the new patch, even with micromanaging your unlikely to get a start where you can pop one out in 4 turns, unless you have lots of bonus resource squares, and get to size 2 in 3/4 turns, you have one citizen working two hammer square to produce warrior in 6 turns, if you start 5 squares from someone else with a scout you are dead? Also in my start I had nothing but flood plains and 1 forest for 4 or 5 squares in all directions, moving would of simply killed me sooner as the only decent land was to the east directly in the path of Inca. Who were too damn close as it was. Bad map selection, possibly, bad play I don't think so. Erm micromanaging let's see, er floodplains, floodplains, desert or erm, ah I have 1 forest tile, Damn build time 6 turns, I'm screwed cya gg. That's a dead turn 6 scenario whatever you do, rare yes, making someone report for that, your look out
|
|
|
Post by markweston on Jan 9, 2006 5:36:05 GMT -5
Come on now.
Archers do a fine job defending a city against axes. In fact three warriors (two with some luck - depending on whether he's got aggressive?) ought to be enough to stop this one axeman charge. But very occassionally circumstances will conspire to allow someone to accidentally plant on copper, AND get enough money huts to pay for an axeman upgrade, AND move their new axeman undetected to your city border. stuff happens. Learn any lessons you can learn and start another game.
It doesn't seem realistic to demand a change in the game to cover every possible circumstance which might be unbalanced, no matter how unlikely.
Sidhe's 5-turn kill is similar. It is, occassionally, possible. But I find it fairly rare that I don't have a 2-hammer tile within my city border. That's a warrior in 4 turns; 3 turns if my city's on a hill.
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Jan 9, 2006 13:37:09 GMT -5
he's right you know, I find alot of people take risks building too many workers early on, when 4 axemen turn up and you have 2 warriors and an archer, what do you expect, you take the risk you pay the price. Simply speaking going for quick worker builds is a good tactic but you really have to make sure your not close to anyone first.
Here's the math 4 archers with defence 1 and fortified in a city with 50% bonus, let's say you pop rushed walls as a desperate survival ploy and 25% def bonus. Thats 100% bonus giving you 6 vs 6. 4 archers will probably beat 4 axe in this situation, unless there promoted. Try building on hills and your laughing. Same with no metal situation. If you get taken by surprise with 5 workers on your land and no bronze then your asking for it.
I don't build four archers but then I tend to have sentry nets up if someone is really close, usually I can get out another two archers if I need them before the attack comes in, and of course I tend to go mess with close people wether I have bronze or not, so I can see what there building early on anyway.
The 5 turn kill should be fixed when build times go back down to pre patched levels, so it doesn't bother me, it is fortunately a very rare situation.
|
|
|
Post by markweston on Jan 9, 2006 14:04:41 GMT -5
<snip> Here's the math; 4 archers with defence 1 and fortified in a city with 50% bonus, let's say you pop rushed walls as a desperate survival ploy and 25% def bonus. Thats 100% bonus giving you 6 vs 6. <snip> And when you remember an axeman's base strength is actually five, the arithmatic looks even better!
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Jan 9, 2006 14:23:44 GMT -5
lol, good point Mark ;D ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by sparta on Jan 10, 2006 19:03:49 GMT -5
Come on now. Archers do a fine job defending a city against axes. In fact three warriors (two with some luck - depending on whether he's got aggressive?) ought to be enough to stop this one axeman charge. But very occassionally circumstances will conspire to allow someone to accidentally plant on copper, AND get enough money huts to pay for an axeman upgrade, AND move their new axeman undetected to your city border. stuff happens. Learn any lessons you can learn and start another game. It doesn't seem realistic to demand a change in the game to cover every possible circumstance which might be unbalanced, no matter how unlikely. Sidhe's 5-turn kill is similar. It is, occassionally, possible. But I find it fairly rare that I don't have a 2-hammer tile within my city border. That's a warrior in 4 turns; 3 turns if my city's on a hill. Listen to him. He knows what he's talking about.
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Jan 10, 2006 19:48:00 GMT -5
he certainly does
|
|
|
Post by Srayman on Jan 11, 2006 16:59:25 GMT -5
I think the problem with dying turn 5 is an issue of playing with too many players on a too small map.
For Inland Sea
Duel 1-2 players -- 2 ideal Tiny 3-5 players -- 4 ideal Small 5-7 players - 6 ideal Standard 7-10 ----- 8 or 9 ideal
That is what I play with and if a host does any different I don't play. Why? because then you either have way too much space if playing on a larger map then you should be, or you are way too close to play a decent game of CIV.
Play with the proper map size and half your problems go away and you'll have a much more enjoyable game ... unless your only strat is to rush people early and hope for a kill. Then you need to broaden your gameplay.
|
|
|
Post by MMV on Jan 11, 2006 18:18:38 GMT -5
I think the problem with dying turn 5 is an issue of playing with too many players on a too small map. For Inland Sea Duel 1-2 players -- 2 ideal Tiny 3-5 players -- 4 ideal Small 5-7 players - 6 ideal Standard 7-10 ----- 8 or 9 ideal That is what I play with and if a host does any different I don't play. Why? because then you either have way too much space if playing on a larger map then you should be, or you are way too close to play a decent game of CIV. Play with the proper map size and half your problems go away and you'll have a much more enjoyable game ... unless your only strat is to rush people early and hope for a kill. Then you need to broaden your gameplay. VERY true - and to add another "note" on this - to make the map a bit larger for the settings listed above, set sea-level to low; a bit smaller? change sea-level to high. (this is of course assuming Srayman's suggestion was at the "medium" sea-level setting)
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Jan 12, 2006 2:49:20 GMT -5
I find it a bit of a problem with 7 players small is often too small and large is often too large, it's kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. There should not have been a situation where it was possible to die turn 5, the game mechanics were originally designed to stop this, then the patch went and screwed this up. You can make someone report for that if you like but I personally think you're an arsehole if you do, mentioning no names
|
|
|
Post by horizon on Jan 12, 2006 12:14:33 GMT -5
Sidhe said: "Builders are idiots, with a resource near I'll kill them every time" Sidhe the technical advice you give may be sound but your advice on how to play a cton i disagre with, I've played 3 cton games with you, you didnt finish near the top, ctons are won by ppl who can build and protect their land, ive had a neighbour chucking units at me all game, on a standard map he had a score of 400 and finished in last, you play each game differently depending on your situation, eg land, resource, neighbours, sometimes the only way to progress is to make a kill, but i've found that the person with the higest score wins
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Jan 12, 2006 14:07:53 GMT -5
No offence horizon but out of the last 14 games I've played not a single one had an early resource or good land or both. That's gonna put a crimp in your day with xemen walking over your arse. if you look at my record and consider this then it's not that bad. I play dagger atm simp[ly because the only other choice is die resourceless to three axemen.
I can build and build a big score, I can defend, I can't do it without a resource or all desert and jungle, and frankly neither can anyone else.
How many people knew about horse archer early kills before I discussed it on here. If you expand quickly to early and your opponent watches the score, you're dead if he has horses, if you want to take this risk np, but don't bitch if you get killed by a stack of axe and horse, cause after they fix the build costs with a new patch you'll be seeing alot more stacks coming your way. ATM frankly I'd rather go kill acouple of people than sit there and build, that's criminally dull, if I lose because of it, who cares, at least I'm having fun, not doing keyboard gymanstics for 3 hours and watching the timer count down.
|
|
|
Post by sparta on Jan 12, 2006 18:30:36 GMT -5
Sidhe said: "Builders are idiots, with a resource near I'll kill them every time" Sidhe the technical advice you give may be sound but your advice on how to play a cton i disagre with, I've played 3 cton games with you, you didnt finish near the top, ctons are won by ppl who can build and protect their land, ive had a neighbour chucking units at me all game, on a standard map he had a score of 400 and finished in last, you play each game differently depending on your situation, eg land, resource, neighbours, sometimes the only way to progress is to make a kill, but i've found that the person with the higest score wins In order to consistently win games, you have to be a good builder(and be able to protect yourself as well) AND be able to build up a good force.
|
|